9 Apr
2012
9 Apr
'12
2:18 p.m.
And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gamin…
--
Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8
9 Apr
9 Apr
2:29 p.m.
And another father of beloved machines has passed into
silicon heaven.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gamin…
That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these days.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- PowerPC inside! ------------------------------------------------------------
3:06 p.m.
On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
That's a shame. His impact on
computing is frequently forgotten these
days.
It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man
and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine
and accessories.
He was famous for demanding prototypes be available for CES, accepting
orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then
forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product.
Keith
And another
father of beloved machines has passed into silicon
heaven.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gamin…
3:35 p.m.
On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Keith Monahan wrote:
On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Agreed, but I doubt the personal computing landscape would have looked
anything like it did without him. Sometimes you need ruthless SOBs to
get things done. You couldn't have had an Apple without a Commodore to
compete with (that's sophistry, perhaps, but I still believe it).
That's a shame. His impact on computing is
frequently forgotten these
days.
It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man
and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine
and accessories. He was famous for demanding prototypes be available
for CES, accepting
orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then
forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product.
While not optimal, this got computers into people's hands who wouldn't
have been able to afford something better. It's always a pick-2 of
getting it done fast, cheap and right, no?
- Dave
4:11 p.m.
"Business is War" was his company Motto...
Ruthless? Shrewd is more appropriate, and highly aggressive, more so
then the laid back California culture was used to.... he brought East
Coast aggressive business tactics to Atari, woke up a company that was
continually taking longer and longer and longer to release products,
generally which were only cost reduced updates with minor upgrades.
While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product
out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat. There are
a lot of things that are largely public misconceptions about him that
through research and access to the original mainframe emails and memo's
is quite the contrary...
The real kicker here..... myself and Marty Goldberg were supposed to
meet with Jack next week for a face to face interview for our book and
it is a shame we won't have that on tape now. Jack will speak to us
through his words from his emails, memo's and such, that will still give
us some solid insight into his thinking, but after speaking with him on
the phone just a few weeks ago, which was a remarkably enjoyable
conversation, I was very much looking forward to meeting him in person
to continue our talk.
Curt
David Riley wrote:
On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Keith Monahan wrote:
On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Agreed, but I doubt the personal computing landscape would have looked
anything like it did without him. Sometimes you need ruthless SOBs to
get things done. You couldn't have had an Apple without a Commodore to
compete with (that's sophistry, perhaps, but I still believe it).
That's a shame. His impact on computing is
frequently forgotten these
days.
It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man
and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine
and accessories.
He was famous for demanding prototypes be
available for CES, accepting
orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then
forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product.
While not optimal, this got computers into people's hands who wouldn't
have been able to afford something better. It's always a pick-2 of
getting it done fast, cheap and right, no?
- Dave
4:18 p.m.
On 4/9/2012 3:35 PM, David Riley wrote:
No, the engineers just needed some more time to produce a more finished
product. Although there might be indirect factors that I'm not taking
in account (like maybe an earlier time to market causes a higher rate of
adoption of the brand/item), the product would have likely cost only
marginally more if done right.
I hope I'm remembering correctly, but I think the 1541 was a victim of
Jack Tramiel's rush-to-market engineering.
The original 1541 engineer(don't remember which guy it was) had said
separately that due to lack of time for testing(and time to find the
bug), that some million man hours were wasted while people waited for
the drive to load various software over the years. (bug caused a huge
performance problem)
This is covered here
http://www.amazon.com/Commodore-Company-Edge-Brian-Bagnall/dp/0973864966
But I think everyone here knows the story better than I do.
Keith
On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Keith Monahan wrote:
I don't disagree with this.
On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Agreed, but I doubt the personal computing landscape would have looked
anything like it did without him. Sometimes you need ruthless SOBs to
get things done. You couldn't have had an Apple without a Commodore to
compete with (that's sophistry, perhaps, but I still believe it). That's a shame. His impact on computing is
frequently forgotten these
days.
It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man
and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine
and accessories. He was famous for demanding prototypes be
available for CES, accepting
orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then
forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product.
While not optimal, this got computers into people's hands who wouldn't
have been able to afford something better. It's always a pick-2 of
getting it done fast, cheap and right, no? 
5:02 p.m.
While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness,
getting product
out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat.
The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but maybe you mean the PETs?
One thing that interests me is why the early Commodore products, like the
PET, did so well in Europe as opposed to North America? Was it just a lack
of competition in Europe in that Tandy, Atari and Apple didn't focus on
that market in the late 1970s?
Tez
10 Apr
10 Apr
11:35 p.m.
>While his lack of marketing may have been his
weakness, getting product
>out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat.
The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but maybe
you mean the PETs?
I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed.
One thing that interests me is why the early Commodore
products, like the
PET, did so well in Europe as opposed to North America? Was it just a
lack
of competition in Europe in that Tandy, Atari and Apple didn't focus on
that market in the late 1970s?
From what I read it was the guy in England who was
driving the sales and was
very good at it. He had built upon a reputation from
Commodore's Calculator
Days.
Jeff Brace
11 Apr
11 Apr
12:01 a.m.
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
Yep. Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore
sold sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish."
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
> While his
lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product
> out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat.
The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but
maybe you mean the PETs?
I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed.
12:12 a.m.
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:01 PM, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
Yep. ?Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold
sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish."
g.
Except he was at Atari when the Amiga came out.
> While
his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product
> out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat.
The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but
maybe you mean the PETs?
I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed.
12:32 a.m.
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Kelly Fergason wrote:
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:01 PM, Gene Buckle
<geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
Correct. The marketing failures fell at the feet of Irving Gould and the
rest of his little f*cktard lackeys.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
Yep. ?Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold
sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish."
g.
Except he was at Atari when the Amiga came out.
> While
his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product
> out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat.
The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but
maybe you mean the PETs?
I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed.
10:25 a.m.
New subject: Commodore Amiga arketing Re: Jack Tramiel passed away
----- Original Message -----
Correct.? The marketing failures fell at the feet of
Irving Gould and the
rest of his little f*cktard lackeys.
Agreed.. Does anyone remember Harry Copperman?
He came in and tried to actually market the machine..
That was the time of the Amiga Unix box, The Lowell card, Amiga TCP/IP, The
"Stevie" ad campaign and Multimedia Live.
Commodore was willing to spend money to market it, then they "promoted" him and
it all went to hell.
I actually did some work for the ad agency Messner Vetere Berger Carey Schmetterer on that
campaign.
12:58 p.m.
>> I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly
marketed.
> Yep. ?Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold
> sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish."
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Kelly Fergason wrote:
Except he was at Atari when the Amiga came out.
Was the ST marketed like cold dead fish?
8:39 a.m.
At 11:01 PM 4/10/2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
Yep. Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said
that if Commodore sold sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish."
I seem to remember CBM employees saying it was KFC as "hot dead chicken."
As for how Jack's departure from Atari was intertwined with the Amiga,
the Wikipedia article has an overview:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Corporation>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Corporation
- John
2:09 p.m.
Not entirely accurate:
"One of Tramiel's first acts after forming Atari Corp. was to fire most
of Atari's remaining staff and cancel almost all ongoing projects in
order to review their continued viability. It was during this time in
late July that Tramiel's representatives discovered the original Atari
Inc./Amiga contract. "
Jack never fired anyone, his company - TTL (Tramiel Technologies
Limited) bought assets and IP from Warner as well as the Atari name and
logo. Warner retained the remainder of the company as well as the
employee's. Jack spent 2 weeks interviewing and HIRING Atari
employee's to work at TTL which was renamed Atari Corp, so the
Warner-Atari employees came over to work at a new company called Atari
Corp. Those who weren't selected, Warner fired them...
"Tramiels representatives..." no, Tramiels son - Leonard Tramiel found
the cashed check to Amiga for $500,000 from Mar 3, 1984 and then located
the contract between Atari and Amiga for the $500K advance to continue
the chip work and development of the Amiga while giving Atari engineers
access to the technical information as well as "tape outs" located in an
Escrow account at a bank until Amiga delivered the finished chips.
The full details, including David Morse's own court testimony will be in
our 2nd Atari History book in December called "Business is War: Atari
Corp." There was a LOT more going on behind the scene's then people
realize and RJ Mical's complete mis-recounting of the story which he
publicly admits "do you want the truth or a good story, I prefer a good
story" are completely corrected in the book....
Curt
John Foust wrote:
At 11:01 PM 4/10/2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
Yep. Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once
said that if Commodore sold sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead,
fish."
I seem to remember CBM employees saying it was KFC as "hot dead chicken."
As for how Jack's departure from Atari was intertwined with the Amiga,
the Wikipedia article has an overview:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Corporation>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Corporation
- John
2:54 p.m.
On 2012 Apr 11, at 11:09 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Not entirely accurate:
"One of Tramiel's first acts after forming Atari Corp. was to fire
most of Atari's remaining staff and cancel almost all ongoing
projects in order to review their continued viability. It was
during this time in late July that Tramiel's representatives
discovered the original Atari Inc./Amiga contract. "
Jack never fired anyone, his company - TTL (Tramiel Technologies
Limited) bought assets and IP from Warner as well as the Atari name
and logo. Warner retained the remainder of the company as well as
the employee's. Jack spent 2 weeks interviewing and HIRING Atari
employee's to work at TTL which was renamed Atari Corp, so the
Warner-Atari employees came over to work at a new company called
Atari Corp. Those who weren't selected, Warner fired them...
"Tramiels representatives..." no, Tramiels son - Leonard Tramiel
found the cashed check to Amiga for $500,000 from Mar 3, 1984 and
then located the contract between Atari and Amiga for the $500K
advance to continue the chip work and development of the Amiga
while giving Atari engineers access to the technical information as
well as "tape outs" located in an Escrow account at a bank until
Amiga delivered the finished chips. The full details,
including David Morse's own court testimony will be in our 2nd
Atari History book in December called "Business is War: Atari
Corp." There was a LOT more going on behind the scene's then
people realize and RJ Mical's complete mis-recounting of the story
which he publicly admits "do you want the truth or a good story, I
prefer a good story" are completely corrected in the book....
I never followed the details of the intertwined Commodore/Atari
business history, but the part I've never really heard discussed much
is how Commodore successfully transitioned from calculators to
personal computers. Calculator manufactures were dropping like flies
in the mid-70's as calculators became a low-cost commodity business,
Commodore was one of the few that managed to migrate to and thrive in
a new business and market. Strikes me it took some astuteness to
accomplish that.
3:09 p.m.
Don't really know, there is a great book on Commodore that came out not
long ago... I'm an Atari guy ;-)
Brent Hilpert wrote:
On 2012 Apr 11, at 11:09 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum
wrote:
Not entirely accurate:
"One of Tramiel's first acts after forming Atari Corp. was to fire
most of Atari's remaining staff and cancel almost all ongoing
projects in order to review their continued viability. It was during
this time in late July that Tramiel's representatives discovered the
original Atari Inc./Amiga contract. "
Jack never fired anyone, his company - TTL (Tramiel Technologies
Limited) bought assets and IP from Warner as well as the Atari name
and logo. Warner retained the remainder of the company as well as
the employee's. Jack spent 2 weeks interviewing and HIRING Atari
employee's to work at TTL which was renamed Atari Corp, so the
Warner-Atari employees came over to work at a new company called
Atari Corp. Those who weren't selected, Warner fired them...
"Tramiels representatives..." no, Tramiels son - Leonard Tramiel
found the cashed check to Amiga for $500,000 from Mar 3, 1984 and
then located the contract between Atari and Amiga for the $500K
advance to continue the chip work and development of the Amiga while
giving Atari engineers access to the technical information as well as
"tape outs" located in an Escrow account at a bank until Amiga
delivered the finished chips. The full details, including David
Morse's own court testimony will be in our 2nd Atari History book in
December called "Business is War: Atari Corp." There was a LOT
more going on behind the scene's then people realize and RJ Mical's
complete mis-recounting of the story which he publicly admits "do you
want the truth or a good story, I prefer a good story" are completely
corrected in the book....
I never followed the details of the intertwined Commodore/Atari
business history, but the part I've never really heard discussed much
is how Commodore successfully transitioned from calculators to
personal computers. Calculator manufactures were dropping like flies
in the mid-70's as calculators became a low-cost commodity business,
Commodore was one of the few that managed to migrate to and thrive in
a new business and market. Strikes me it took some astuteness to
accomplish that.
3:33 p.m.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Don't really know, there is a great book on
Commodore that came out not long
ago... I'm an Atari guy ;-)
That's ok, nobody's perfect. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
4:20 p.m.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
I never followed the details of the intertwined
Commodore/Atari
business history, but the part I've never really heard discussed much
is how Commodore successfully transitioned from calculators to
personal computers. Calculator manufactures were dropping like flies
in the mid-70's as calculators became a low-cost commodity business,
Commodore was one of the few that managed to migrate to and thrive in
a new business and market. Strikes me it took some astuteness to
accomplish that.
After experiencing the early pocket calculators in the early 1970s, then
the HPs, and then the price decline, I bought the first one that I could
get for <$5 (1977?). It was a Commodore.
I guess that we'll have to wait, and buy the book to hear what the
Atari/Commodore story was.
12 Apr
12 Apr
12:53 a.m.
Brent Hilpert wrote:
I never followed the details of the intertwined
Commodore/Atari
business history, but the part I've never really heard discussed much
is how Commodore successfully transitioned from calculators to
personal computers. Calculator manufactures were dropping like flies
in the mid-70's as calculators became a low-cost commodity business,
Commodore was one of the few that managed to migrate to and thrive in
a new business and market. Strikes me it took some astuteness to
accomplish that.
Commodore, Sinclair and MITS are three companies I think of when talking
about success in moving from calculators to personal computers. There
were probably others and I don't count HP nor Texas Instruments since
they just did well with both and so didn't "transition".
In the case of Commodore, a bit of luck was an important factor. Jack
Tramiel saw that it was impossible to continue to compete in the
calculator business without becoming vertically integrated like TI (his
current supplier). So he bought a chip company: MOS Technology. This
would allow him to make the chips in his calculators himself and beat TI
and the Japanese in price.
But MOS Technology had just entered the personal computer business by
accident - their development board proved to be very popular with end
users.
http://oldcomputers.net/kim1.html
So now Commodore was in the personal computing business (see the bottom
picture on that page) and had Chuck Peddle working for them who was
anxious to do it right.
-- Jecel
11 Apr
11 Apr
2:28 a.m.
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Jeffrey Brace <arkaxow at gmail.com> wrote:
Jack had nothing to do with the Amiga. He's probably referring to
Jack's company Atari Corporation and the claimed lack of marketing on
things like the Atari 7800, Jaguar, etc. As Curt can tell you though,
they actually poured a significant amount of money in to marketing.
--
Marty
> While his
lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product
> out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat.
The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but
maybe you mean the PETs?
I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed.
One thing that interests me is why the early
Commodore products, like the
PET, did so well in Europe as opposed to North America? ?Was it just a
lack
of competition in Europe in that Tandy, Atari and Apple didn't focus on
that market in the late 1970s?
From what I read it was the guy in England who was driving the sales and was
very good at it. He had built upon a reputation from Commodore's Calculator
Days.
Jeff Brace
9 Apr
9 Apr
4:03 p.m.
It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty
ruthless business man
and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine
and accessories.
True, but you could say this of many of the movers and shakers of the micro
world. Steve Jobs with the unreliable Apple III and Mac 128 - limited RAM,
no expansion and little software...Bull Gates...numerous buggy versions of
first-release products.
It was a cut-throat game. They were all ruthless, driven, demanding men.
Tez
4:28 p.m.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2012, Keith Monahan wrote:
He was famous for demanding prototypes be available
for CES, accepting
orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then
forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product.
In other words, "a leader of the industry"! (and all of the horrific
things that THAT really means)
What really happened in the big "technology trade" of Atari and Commodore?
3:29 p.m.
On Apr 9, 2012, at 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Indeed. Slightly amusing that he should pass within a few days of
Jim Marshall, though. :-)
- Dave
And another
father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gamin…
That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these days.
3:41 p.m.
And another father of beloved machines has passed into
silicon heaven.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gamin…
That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these days. 
4:19 p.m.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2012, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote:
And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gamin…
At least he outlived that rat-bastard Irving Gould.
Jack will be missed. :(
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]
4479
days inactive
4482
days old
26 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
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arkaxow＠gmail.com -
christian_liendo＠yahoo.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
jecel＠merlintec.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
keithvz＠verizon.net -
kfergason＠gmail.com -
rachael＠telefisk.org -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
terry＠webweavers.co.nz -
wgungfu＠gmail.com