1 Jun
2000
1 Jun
'00
8:33 a.m.
Hi All,
One the nice things about this list is the variety of
first hand experience that can be called upon to clear
up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging
around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer.
Up for review:
1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed
the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not
designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything
about the people that helped design these computers?
2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to
build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under
UV light for an extended period until the memory cells
were still light sensitive but would no long hold a
charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window,
you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into
memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had
heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it.
3. This has probably been discussed here before, but ....
I've heard that the old 8 inch 32 sector hard sector floppy
diskettes, the ones with the sector holes around the outside
edge of the diskette, and the big notch in one corner, is
is an early version of the 8 inch floppy - maybe the first
form the 8 inch floppies from IBM took.
4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age,
that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just
a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair
8800 where filled until April 1, 1975.
(Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it
might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single
sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to
get married at the end of April.)
Comments welcome, I would like to deallocate the space
for the ones that have no real basis in fact.
Regards,
--Doug
=========================================
Doug Coward
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
=========================================
1 Jun
1 Jun
8:48 a.m.
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8:59 a.m.
2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible
to
build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under
UV light for an extended period until the memory cells
were still light sensitive but would no long hold a
charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window,
you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into
memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had
heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it.
I can't speak for the EPROM legend, having never heard it,
but I do know some folks that did this with DRAM. Basically,
they took the top off a ceramic DRAM (IIRC, it was a 16Kx1;
this was some time ago) and arranged for an image to be
focussed on the DRAM.
--
Roger Ivie
TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
1750 North Research Park Way
North Logan, UT 84341
Phone: (435)787-0555
Fax: (435)787-0516
9:13 a.m.
At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, Doug Coward wrote:
1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later
designed
the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not
designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything
about the people that helped design these computers?
If you have a list of people who worked on Mindset, I'm sure
we can compare it to the more-well-known list of people who
worked on the Amiga. Did you ever see this rumor in print?
Or where did it come from?
2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible to
build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under
UV light for an extended period until the memory cells
I remember RAM chip-based cameras, not EPROM. I remember
a magazine project for the Apple II. Early Byte, maybe?
4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to
age,
that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just
a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair
8800 where filled until April 1, 1975.
This is well-documented... or at least Ed Roberts has maintained
this alibi over the years. Supposedly they shipped the first
unit to R-E for the cover shot, but it never made it. Cynics
say it wasn't ready. I, too, wonder why you'd send a "real"
unit for a beauty shot, when the empty case would do the same.
- John
9:19 a.m.
At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, you wrote:
Up for review:
1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed
the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not
designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything
about the people that helped design these computers?
I believe that would be Jay Miner.
2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible
to
build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under
UV light for an extended period until the memory cells
were still light sensitive but would no long hold a
charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window,
you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into
memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had
heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it.
Nope, but you could remove the cover off a Dynamic RAM and do this. It was
the basis for the "cyclops" camera. I have a couple of RAMs I did this to
(they still work too!) The theory is that the photons knock the charge off
the capacitors turning 1 bits into zero bits. The way it was used most
effectively was to write all ones, then scan it about 16 times recording
the bit pattern each time. Bright light turned bits to zero immediately,
less light took longer. The resulting 16 scans could be converted into a 4
bit grey scale image. Check back issues in Byte for the Steve Ciarcia
article on this, and later the "OPTICRam" which was a commercialized version.
3. This has probably been discussed here before, but
....
I've heard that the old 8 inch 32 sector hard sector floppy
diskettes, the ones with the sector holes around the outside
edge of the diskette, and the big notch in one corner, is
is an early version of the 8 inch floppy - maybe the first
form the 8 inch floppies from IBM took.
Eric Smith has all the skinny on this one.
4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to
age,
that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just
a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair
8800 where filled until April 1, 1975.
(Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it
might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single
sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to
get married at the end of April.)
My version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was
the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS
was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus
delayed first shipments.
--Chuck
9:56 a.m.
On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:
At 01:33 PM 6/1/00 -0700, you wrote:
You're saying Jay Miner worked on the Mindset? Both the Mindset and the
Amiga were released in 1984, right? It seems unlikely that they were
designed by the same guy(s). I've never heard this particular bit of
folklore, though.
Up for review:
1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed
the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not
designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything
about the people that helped design these computers?
I believe that would be Jay Miner. My version goes that the Altair that was sent to
Popular Electronics was
the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS
was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus
delayed first shipments.
Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The
only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that
is second-hand.
Cheers,
Doug
10:25 a.m.
At 05:56 PM 6/1/00 -0400, you wrote:
Second hand as well, it was from the guy who started the first computer
club in Las Vegas when I was but a young lad (1977). I did however buy a
Digital Group Z80 system with my own money and became the youngest member
with a system in the club. (I've got the Review-Journal newspaper article
to prove it! :-) He had tried to order an Altair when he read about it and
was given the above excuse as to why it wouldn't be available for a while.
--Chuck
My version
goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics was
the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was returned. MITS
was forced to recreate large portions of the design from scratch and thus
delayed first shipments.
Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The
only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that
is second-hand. 
4:19 p.m.
I also got this from not only Bob Cringely when I read his book and
interviewed him , but also when I interviewed Forrest Mims, who
was one of the co-founders of MITS and has also written a boatload
of magazine articles and ton of project books for Radio Shack.
Forrest also said that his first impression of the Microsoft Children
was that they were loud and spoiled and complained a lot. Doesn't
sound like much has changed......
The Altair on the cover of the Jan 75 PE is a mockup....just a case
with the front panel that was cobbled together in a hurry after the
original was lost so that they would have something to photograph.
BTW....how many of us have that issue? I have both Jan and Feb,
and also the Altair 6800 issue. Tried several years ago at Comdex
to get Billy G to sign one of the later ones that offered MITS
BASIC, but the man has more layers of "people" who treat him like
God than the President does.....
Date sent: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:25:30 -0700
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com>
Subject: Re: Tech Rumors/Legends?
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
At 05:56 PM 6/1/00 -0400, you wrote:
Second hand as well, it was from the guy who started the first computer
club in Las Vegas when I was but a young lad (1977). I did however buy a
Digital Group Z80 system with my own money and became the youngest member
with a system in the club. (I've got the Review-Journal newspaper article
to prove it! :-) He had tried to order an Altair when he read about it and
was given the above excuse as to why it wouldn't be available for a while.
--Chuck
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
My
version goes that the Altair that was sent to Popular Electronics
was the only prototype and it got lost in the mail when it was
returned. MITS was forced to recreate large portions of the design
from scratch and thus delayed first shipments.
Not to pick on you, Chuck, but what's the source for your version. The
only documented story I'm familiar with is in Stan Veit's book, but that
is second-hand. 
9:20 a.m.
Doug Coward wrote:
Up for review:
1. "The person that designed the Mindset PC later designed
the Amiga." I realize that computers like the Amiga are not
designed by just one person, but does anyone know anything
about the people that helped design these computers?
Urg. Kinda. Around 1982 at Atari Corporate Research we
had a project to develop a laptop computer designed for
games which was 68K based with custom video
and audio hardware. Most of this stuff never saw the light
of day, but the sound hardware sticks in my mind as something
that made it to the point of being a functional prototype.
After Atari went nova the rumor was that many of the
refugees of the audio effort ended up at Amiga and
that many of the video guys ended up at Mindset. I certainly
recognized a few of the names on the inside of the A1000
we used to develop the Hurricane as being refugees from
Atari, as well as one guy who was a refugee from BTI
(of the BTI 5000 and dreaded 8000 fame).
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
9:20 a.m.
On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Doug Coward wrote:
Hi All,
One the nice things about this list is the variety of
first hand experience that can be called upon to clear
up those nagging second hand rumors that you keep dragging
around for years, unable to track down a definitive answer.
[snip]
2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible
to
build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under
UV light for an extended period until the memory cells
were still light sensitive but would no long hold a
charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window,
you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into
memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had
heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it.
In the very early 80's. Steve Ciarcia (Micromint) designed an Apple
II 'camera' that used this concept... it had a the chip behind a
common c-mount TV lens, an interface board, and software to manage
the image, do simple dithering, print the images, etc.
The one I owned is now on it's way to Hans Franke... so he might
be able to report on it if he gets it up and running.
Cheers
John
9:38 a.m.
2. About 1982 I started hearing that it was possible
to
build a camera for your pc by "cooking" an EPROM under
UV light for an extended period until the memory cells
were still light sensitive but would no long hold a
charge. Then by placing a len over the EPROM's window,
you had a real time low-res video image mapped right into
memory. Again this is one that quite a few people had
heard about but no one knew anyone that had ever done it.
I don't think that would work. I've cooked EPROMs for months
without any change in their functioning.
More likely, you could marginally program all the bits, or program
them solidly then erase until they're marginal. Then outside light
would move them across the threshold. However, this would be
*extremely* sensitive to temperature and supply voltage. I doubt
it could be made even slightly practical.
On the other hand, if you pop the top off an old DRAM (made before
they started adding opaque passivation layers), they make a
servicable imaging element, if you don't mind the gaps between the
quadrants (which would also be found in EPROMs). There were actually
some products that used this technique, and Micron sold DRAMs packaged
for this purpose.
9:44 a.m.
4. I've heard somewhere, and the source is lost to age,
that - the Altair for the January 1975 article was just
a empty case and that no regular orders for the Altair
8800 where filled until April 1, 1975.
(Sure, I drooled on the magazine at the time, but it
might as well costs a million dollars, I was a single
sailor collecting $151.00 every two weeks, saving to
get married at the end of April.)
The original Altair prototype was lost while being shipped to Popular
Electronics. Thus, the picture on the front cover of the magazine was
indeed an empty case. The article contains pictures of the prototype
which were taken before it was shipped. Those photos show a
computer with no bus, instead the boards were connected using
ribbon cable.
Ed Roberts came up with a new design for the replacement, which
included a bus with room for additional cards, and a 'powerful'
8-amp power supply, installed in an 'Optima' cabinet.
Source: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer.
-Lawrence LeMay
10:22 a.m.
New subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list!
Hello all,
I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled:
APPLE COMPUTER INC.
820-0510-A c1993
It also has a chip on it with the label:
341S0021
c 1983-93 Apple
^
|
|-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-)
Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips,
from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side
(with the Apple
labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba
TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like
the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S
IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each.
It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm
beginning to think it's not.
Any clues are greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Stan
11:07 a.m.
New subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list!
Hello all,
I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled:
APPLE COMPUTER INC.
820-0510-A c1993
Are you sure it's a PCI board? If it's from '93 it's to old to be a PCI
board, as it was in late '95 that Apple switched from NuBus to PCI slots.
It also has a chip on it with the label:
341S0021
c 1983-93 Apple
^
|
|-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-)
Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips,
from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple
labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba
TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like
the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S
IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each.
It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm
beginning to think it's not.
I suspect you're right, no sign of a x86 CPU? It doesn't sound like ones on
there.
Any clues are greatly appreciated!
Well, Apple has had a habit of putting parts of their systems on other
boards. I think what you've got here is the Video and Audio portion of a
68k based Mac. Taking a quick look at what was shipping in '93
http://lowendmac.net/time/1991-95.shtml I'd guess that it's from a Centris
or a Quadra.
Zane
7 Jun
7 Jun
5:36 a.m.
New subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list!
I'm guessing it's a video I/O board for a Quadra 630ish machine. These were
squat and narrow boxes, like 2 LC's stacked on top of one and other. You
could drop in a MPEG decoder card, a ethernet or modem card, a TV Tuner
card, or a Video capture card. These were super propriatary and the board
won't work in any other machine.
----- Original Message -----
From: <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the
list!
on
Hello all,
I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled:
APPLE COMPUTER INC.
820-0510-A c1993
Are you sure it's a PCI board? If it's from '93 it's to old to be a PCI
board, as it was in late '95 that Apple switched from NuBus to PCI slots.
It also has a chip on it with the label:
341S0021
c 1983-93 Apple
^
|
|-----That's why I'm hoping it's old enough to qualify :-)
Anyway, on one side of the PCB it's got four large quad flat pack chips,
from Philips, TI, VLSI, and BT, and on the other side (with the Apple
labeled chip I mentioned earlier) it has two rows of 8 each Toshiba
TC528128BJ-80 RAM chips. On the back end it has a DB-15F connector (like
the old Apple monitor connector) and two round DIN connectors labeled "S
IN" and "S OUT" with 7 female contacts each.
It came in a box labeled DOS Compatibility Card for Macintosh, but I'm
beginning to think it's not.
I suspect you're right, no sign of a x86 CPU? It doesn't sound like ones
there.
Any clues are greatly appreciated!
Well, Apple has had a habit of putting parts of their systems on other
boards. I think what you've got here is the Video and Audio portion of a
68k based Mac. Taking a quick look at what was shipping in '93
http://lowendmac.net/time/1991-95.shtml I'd guess that it's from a Centris
or a Quadra.
Zane
2 Jun
2 Jun
8:55 a.m.
New subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for the list!
Hello all,
I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled:
APPLE COMPUTER INC.
820-0510-A c1993
Using the only great reference left to mankind, ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346048066
Apple part# 820-0510-A
Pulled from a working PowerMac 7100. This PDS card gives your PowerMac
61xx, 7100 or 8100 (also WGS 6150 and 8150) accelerated 24 bit video and
video in/out capabilities. It allows you to download Audio and Video from a
camcorder or VCR for editing and playback.
12:51 p.m.
New subject: Please help ID this Mac board--I hope it's old enough for thelist!
Thanks to Mike and all of the others who helped me out with this! It's a
24-bit accelerated video card, and now I have to see if it works in my
Mac 7100/66.
Regards,
Stan Perkins
Mike Ford wrote:
Hello all,
I just came across this small PCI type board, labeled:
APPLE COMPUTER INC.
820-0510-A c1993
Using the only great reference left to mankind, ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=346048066
Apple part# 820-0510-A
Pulled from a working PowerMac 7100. This PDS card gives your PowerMac
61xx, 7100 or 8100 (also WGS 6150 and 8150) accelerated 24 bit video and
video in/out capabilities. It allows you to download Audio and Video from a
camcorder or VCR for editing and playback.
8746
days inactive
8752
days old
16 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
chris＠mainecoon.com -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
dcoward＠pressstart.com -
doug＠blinkenlights.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jbmcb＠hotmail.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jpl15＠netcom.com -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
nerdware＠laidbak.com -
rivie＠teraglobal.com -
stan＠netcom.com