1 Oct
2001
1 Oct
'01
8 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Since they never did provide BASIC they had to make
INT 18 do something
(remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt).
Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible
thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the
CPU.
Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM
BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no
printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such
as "no bootable device?"
Glen
0/0
1 Oct
1 Oct
9:40 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:00:45AM -0400, Glen Goodwin wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
Of course that makes much more sense. Someone (I think Iggy) pointed out
that that's exactly what modern BIOSes do.
I wonder if any code tries to call INT 18h after the system was running?
(I hope that's not the way BASICA works.) If you did, a message saying "No
ROM BASIC" would be much clearer than one saying "No bootable device".
But
I'm sure most of the time INT 18h got called at boot time, so I would still
vote for a "No bootable device" message.
-- Derek
Since they never did provide BASIC they had to
make INT 18 do something
(remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt).
Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible
thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the
CPU.
Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM
BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no
printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such
as "no bootable device?" 
2 Oct
2 Oct
10:08 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Like the keyboard error hit F1 to continue if they've got no keyboard
connected. Plug in the keyboard live any they could smoke
the machine...
Great move. It's ok if you just left a book on the keyboard... though
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Since they never did provide BASIC they had to
make INT 18 do something
(remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt).
Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible
thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the
CPU.
Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM
BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no
printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such
as "no bootable device?"
Glen
0/0 
12:57 p.m.
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3 Oct
3 Oct
11:50 a.m.
New subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof
Tony Duell wrote:
Actually, one thing that really annoys me are error
messages that don't
describe the real problem, but only the most likely cause. I need to know
waht's really going on so that I can fix it. Odd, that....
It's not that they don't describe the real problem that annoys me most
it's messages like "File not found" with no indication of what file was
being looked for. An error message should dump all the (relevant)
information available at the point when the error was detected.
-- HBP
1:39 p.m.
New subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof
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3:08 p.m.
New subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated:
Sorry, but it's still not helpful. Could it not be opened because the
file doesn't exist? The volume it's on doesn't exist? Do I have
permissions to open the file? Is it locked by another application? Was
there a hardware fai~~~~~~~~~~~~[
NO CARRIER
OK
It's not that they don't describe the
real problem that annoys me most
it's messages like "File not found" with no indication of what file was
being looked for. An error message should dump all the (relevant)
information available at the point when the error was detected.
Ah, but all that relevant information is part of the 'real problem'.
'File Not Found' doesn't describe the problem at all. 'Could not open
FOO.DAT' is a lot more helpful.
3:23 p.m.
New subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof
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4 Oct
4 Oct
4:57 a.m.
New subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof
Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev:
Sorry, but it's still not helpful. Could it not
be opened because the
file doesn't exist? The volume it's on doesn't exist? Do I have
permissions to open the file? Is it locked by another application? Was
there a hardware fai~~~~~~~~~~~~[
What, doesn't MS-DOS have a "Why" command? ;-)
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
2 Oct
2 Oct
2:19 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Glen Goodwin once stated:
Tony Duell wrote:
INT 18h on the Data General/1 (an 8088 based laptop computer, from 1984)
would dump you into a built in application that included a terminal program
(ADM-3A if I recall correctly, and which I used extensively when I traveled
because the serial ports were based off the USART 82C51, and thus not
compatible with the general 8250s in use on other PCs, so I couldn't use
programs like Procomm or Qmodem), a word processor and maybe some other
cheesey programs like that.
-spc (And it's a common (programming) mistake to assume that INT 19H
will reboot the machine ... )
Since they never did provide BASIC they had to
make INT 18 do something
(remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt).
Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible
thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the
CPU.
Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM
BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no
printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such
as "no bootable device?" 
7:53 p.m.
Glen,
Why not display something understandable to a common
user, such
as "no bootable device?"
The same common user that needs their ports both labeled and color coded?
Glen Goodwin wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
Since they never did provide BASIC they had to
make INT 18 do something
(remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt).
Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible
thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the
CPU.
Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM
BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no
printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such
as "no bootable device?"
Glen
0/0
3 Oct
3 Oct
2:42 a.m.
Jan Koller skrev:
> Why not display something understandable to a
common user, such
> as "no bootable device?"
The same common user that needs their ports both
labeled and color coded?
Really, who doesn't? While I've not seen many colour-coded computers, I've
seldom seen any without properly labeled ports.
Are you going to set up your computer by trial-or-error?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
"I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and
possibly program, of all time..."
Bill Gates 1988
4 Oct
4 Oct
1:13 p.m.
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5:34 p.m.
Tony Duell skrev:
> Really, who doesn't? While I've not seen
many colour-coded computers, I've
> seldom seen any without properly labeled ports.
Didn't we go through this a few weeks back? When
some of us posted about
connectors found on ISA slot covers, and others guessed what they were?
Yep. It seems as though a few "elite hackers" still aren't convinced,
though.
However, I've seen too many computers with
incorrect labelling. I've seen
PCs with a DE9 COM port with a mouse icon over it. OK, so the
pre-installed version of Windows presumably expected a serial mouse on
COM1: . That does not make that port a mouse port, though, at least not
to a hardware hacker like me.
No, D9 mouse ports are for quadrature mice. Everyone knows that.
Speaking of quadrature and improperly labelled ports, why do HP call their
PS/2 mouse to HIL adapter "quadrature adapter"? The quadrature ends before it
even goes out of the mouse and onto the cable.
> Are you going to set up your computer by
trial-or-error?
Well, it ensures that people who can change buffer
chips will always find
a job after some idiot plugs a printer cable into a DB25-S RS232 port....
IMO he wouldn't be an idiot if the port wasn't labeled as an RS-232 port.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra
- det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har.
5 Oct
5 Oct
2:52 p.m.
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5:54 p.m.
Tony Duell skrev:
> >> seldom seen any without properly labeled
ports.
>
> >Didn't we go through this a few weeks back? When some of us posted about
> >connectors found on ISA slot covers, and others guessed what they were?
>
> Yep. It seems as though a few "elite hackers" still aren't convinced,
tho=
> ugh.
Are you suggesting I like unlabelled ports? Because I
can assure
everybody that I much prefer proper labelling...
No, I was rather referring to those who make fun of people with labelled
ports.
> Speaking of quadrature and improperly labelled
ports, why do HP call thei=
> r
> PS/2 mouse to HIL adapter "quadrature adapter"? The quadrature ends befor=
> e it
> even goes out of the mouse and onto the cable.
And the mouse signals on the HP-HIL cable are not
quadrature ones either.
Exactly. It's a serial bus. You can't get farther from quadrature.
It's not as if the adapter takes the PS2 protocol,
undoes the damage, and
gives you the quadrature signals back again.
No, that sounds overtly involved.
> >> Are you going to set up your computer by
trial-or-error?
>
> >Well, it ensures that people who can change buffer chips will always fin=
> d
> >a job after some idiot plugs a printer cable into a DB25-S RS232 port....
>
> IMO he wouldn't be an idiot if the port wasn't labeled as an RS-232 port.
You said 'trial and error', which I took to
mean something like 'Oh look,
this cable fits that (RS232) port at one end and the back of the printer
at the other. Let's use it for that'. Exit magic smoke...
Well, if ports aren't labelled, there is no real way to find out.
It's all very simple if you've only every operated within the IBM PC context
within the last three years or so, but we established in the last thread that
there were a lot of devices which would let out magic smoke if connected to
your PC just on the basis of form factors.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata
6 Oct
6 Oct
10:47 a.m.
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3:46 p.m.
Tony Duell skrev:
[HP's 'qaudrature' adapter]
> >It's not as if the adapter takes the PS2
protocol, undoes the damage, and
> >gives you the quadrature signals back again.
>
> No, that sounds overtly involved.
Although I belive that such adapters do exist (I think
I came across them
for Amigas). Basically a microcontroller (probably a PIC) which you
connected a normal PS/2 mouse to one side, and a quadrature mouse port
to the other. THe microcontroller decoded the PS/2 mouse data and output
the right number of quadrature-style pulses.
They certainly exist for Amigas and Ataris, but what I thought was going a
bit over the top would be to decode PS/2 serial data into quadrature only to
re-encode it into HIL data, when you could probably go right at the serial
data instead.
> >You said 'trial and error', which I
took to mean something like 'Oh look,
> >this cable fits that (RS232) port at one end and the back of the printer
> >at the other. Let's use it for that'. Exit magic smoke...
>
> Well, if ports aren't labelled, there is no real way to find out.
My first reaction is to 'Read The Fine Manual'.
Alas most manuals these
days are anything but fine, and probably wouldn't contain the necessary info.
I've heard that today's manuals (mind you, I haven't bought a computer fresh
from a shop since 1993, and that was the only time ever
=) are only supplied
in computer-readable formats on a CD. Bloody lot of good that
will do you when
the CD drive is malfunctioning and the OS blown kingdom come.
In which case it's time to pull the cover and look
at the connections to
the socket. How many pins are wired, where are the grounds, and what sort
of chips does it connect to (TTL? LSI I/O devices (which are likely to use
TTL levels), known RS232/RS422/etc buffers? That should give some info as
to what the port is for.
I wonder if even I'd be able to do that, and then I consider myself a quite
knowledgeable computer user.
No, I think that you should be able to hook up things to the ports on your
computer without taking the top off and resorting to a multimeter. =)
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
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7 Oct
7 Oct
9:17 a.m.
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