Linux $0, *BSD $0, OpenOffice.org $0. And you don't have to be a student or teacher. It's the same price no matter what TLD your email address is behind.

Infact, some will even send you the install CD's for free incase you can't afford the network bandwidth. Note that this is 2008 and current Linux Distros are very very friendly. Infact, it's a lot easier to install Linux than it is to install Windows these days, and they do support most hardware out there without futzing with drivers, and they'll work just fine with older machines - no need to buy a new computer every time MSFT puts out a new rehash of its malware.

There's really no excuse to use that nasty Redmond trash anymore.

First off, you're a bit late, as that entire conversation came and went over a week ago, but that's OK, I'll go with it... ----- Original Message ----- > <Devil's Advocate Mode>

I would disagree with that - nothing is free. My time is worth something, and unless you are volunteering up your free time to support, it ain't free.

Second, I work for a multi-billion dollar company, and there is NO WAY on this earth any minutely-responsible IT department is going to run ANYTHING unsupported in a production environment, especially with SOX and other requirements.

You're joking, right? Who the heck in THIS day and age is giving you schematics?

We run HP, IBM, Sun, Cisco, and Dell hardware, and I hardly see ANY of them giving out schematics.

IT's the same with many other things. I don;'t suppose many people, buying a new car, would have the same requirement top-of-the-list as my father did recently. Namely that the official workshop manual had to be available. But it was important to us.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't You're joking, right? Who the heck in THIS day and age is giving you schematics?We run HP, IBM, Sun, Cisco, and Dell hardware, and I hardly see ANY of them giving out schematics.

Maybe in a 7-person company, but let's be realistic. Company I work for has

well over 15,000 employees, 5000+ workstations and laptops, over 600 servers, all spread across 6 worldwide offices + 5 call centers, and you're talking about schematics?

That's just nuts - we'd need a full-time person just to manage the schematics, much less actually repairing stuff... In this day in age, it's "call the vendor," because everything we have comes with 3-5 year on-site warranties, and/or maintenance and support contracts.

from Gulliver's Travels. Seems Swift had had it with arguments

Crikey. Another <Operating system-1> is better than <Operating system-2> thread. And modern operating systems yet. Let's put this thing in the proper (vintage) light. Discuss: "FMS II is/is not better than IBSYS because..."? Sigh, Chuck

If I carry my own machine, and only use theirs as a terminal, I frankly don't CARE what software platform they pick.

this list isn't about service contracts and call centers. Tony was

simply stating (though not for the first time LOL LOL) that's the way he does his business. >

Is this still available? What are the dimensions? (to see if it might fit in the back of a minivan...which would also be holding 6 people)? thanks. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 5:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Peoria, IL - Anyone interested in a S/36? (5363, the smaller one) I have a 5363 that I'm not going to do anything with for awhile. I'm not going to pitch it or anything like that, I just wondered if someone wanted to do something more productive than holding up monitors with it. No money, you just have to come here (Peoria, IL) and get it. or bribe me enough to ship it. I have two after-market terminals for it, at least one of which works - They're 525something-compatible (multisession? I don't remember) twinax devices that provide a system printer via a parallel port, but you have to supply the printer because I don't want to give mine up. The machine worked the last time I powered it on, which was about a year ago. If anyone is interested, I will try to IPL it before you come here to make sure it still works. I have manuals for it as well, but I would have to dig those out, so I don't know which ones I have. As for software, this one has a (synchronous?) serial controller and was a (SNA?) network node, so it has the software for those, and I think it has BASIC. It ran someone's business at some point before I got it, I think it was a landscaping supply business. The display panel on the front got cosmetically damaged by one of our students when I had it at work - A gash was cut into the plastic under the numbers. It works fine though. I don't have the key, but the key switch is in the normal position. I may or may not have rewired normal to be "service", I can't remember. Whatever position it's in, you're allowed to IPL. Again, it's not getting pitched or anything, it's just that I'm not going to do anything with it for awhile, if ever. It's kinda wasteful to just have it sitting there. For those who don't know, a 5363 is a large-ish tower case with EDSI disks and twinax peripherals. It's somewhat large and heavy, so shipping it wouldn't be cheap. It can be transported in an average car and carried by one reasonably strong person or two average people. It runs on normal wall power.

So what is a example of a NON-BROKEN terminal I can use as a standard DEC terminal?

From: Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 5:11 PM don't have to be a matter what TLD your email is worth something, My sanity and stress-level is worth something too. And having had dealings with the so-called 'support deparetments' of several companies including M$, I have ocme to the conclusion that it's quicker and cheaper to support things muself. Although actually, I've found the support from the authors of free software to be a lot more helpful in solving prolems (whether caused by a bug in their code or not) than any company I've had dealings with. there is NO WAY on production environment, And there is no way I am going to use anything I can't support myself. Which means I won't depend on any hardware I don't have full schematics for, I won't depend on any software I don't have the source code for. I don;t require it to be 'open', I don't mind if the schematics and source are not freely copyable and that I have to pay to get, say, a technical manaual containing said schematics. -tony

but when does someone get the source code for anything, outside of open source warez? > (curious what open source stuff TD is using...)

Tony Mori wrote: Your time to go down to the software store and pick up a box of crap ware with the "Microsoft" on it isn't free either. Weren't we just talking about educational software discounts here? How exactly does a multi-billion dollar company fit in here?

If you want it supported you can buy it supported. RedHat and Suse will both happily take your money for site licenses and such.

The rest of your reasons are so far fetched as to not warrant further response. I'll leave you to your own ignorance, proof of which can be found in the next line of your quoted text:

To enlighten you, EEE PC's can come with XP, just as some Dell and Lenovo notebooks come with Linux (never mind that you can install it yourself above and beyond this.)

Quit trolling. 1. I responded to your original message about an educational version of various MSFT software with how one can get free CD's of Linux without any need of an educational discount. 2. You claimed various unrelated things, repeating how you work at a multi billion dollar company that has so many desktops and how it wouldn't work there - the topic was about educational discounts - had nothing to do with who you work for, their SOX needs, or how many systems they manage or how much support they require. Bringing up who you work for (or rather how much money flows through them), how many desktops they have, what their support or Sarbanes-Oxley needs has what to do with an educational discount that Microsoft puts out and a counter of Linux and Open Office are both cheaper and better? IMHO, it's condescending, as if to say "they pros won't use Linux" which is plainly false. I know for a fact that large financial companies who probably make far more multi-billions than yours do use Linux, and Solaris, and AIX and many other OS's. Arguing based on that line of thinking simply shows you're switching tactics, away from the core discussion because you realize you're wrong. 3. No one cares whether or not your kids or wife (or for that matter mine) will run Linux, or Windows other than you and them. The option is there, you just seem unwilling to support them, if they chose to go that route. As a data point, my 4 year old can use Linux - he's using an old 650Mhz Celeron running Edubuntu. Yes, I provide him with support and lots of games, all of which are free. That I'm able and willing to provide such support for my family members and you're not does not say anything about the complexity of Linux vs Windows, but rather than my willingness vs yours. I say this, since you've claimed that you've been using Linux and FreeBSD for ages now - which I'd call out as suspicious since, if you really had, you'd be able to provide such support. Perhaps your experience with these is limited to FreeBSD 2.x and Hylafax in 1997 - a lot of things have changed since then. Give current versions of Linux a try before bashing them and limiting your view to whatever the EEE PC happened to ship with. OTOH, I'm forced to use XP at work and it's a horrible dog. The very same hardware runs Linux much, much faster, and it's far better behaved, supports all the hardware on the same machine, is secure, and safe. Not to mention free, with lots of free updates, no activation, and comes with tons of other free software. 4. I did follow the discussion, but I wasn't going to let some free advertisement for Microsoft software slide without pointing out that there Linux can be had, not only for free as a download but also on CD. The timing of your original post and my "Hey, by the way, you can get Linux, it's good and it's free" is irrelevant to anything you've said. Messages on mailing lists do not have expiration dates - and on a mailing list that discusses 20 and 30 year old machines, it's laughable to think that 10 days somehow makes any difference. 5. The words "Put the Asus EEE PC with Linux next to version with XP / Vista, and there is NO comparison - it even LOOKS like a cartoony toy" do not make it sound like you're comparing Linux running on an Asus PC vs to XP running on an Asus PC. So you've had a typo there - that opened up the door to multiple interpretations. I think that perhaps now you've meant "next to (a) version (of the EEE PC) with XP / Vista" rather than what I misread as another machine. My apologies - it appeared to me that you were comparing the version of Linux that ships with the EEE PC with any version of XP/Vista on another machine, and somehow saying the EEE PC was a toy because it ran Linux, not comparing Linux and XP/Vista on the same machine. But it's still not a valid comparison. Most folks who run Linux are going to run one with either KDE or GNOME and they're not gonna have it setup to look like a toy. Perhaps the marketing folks of the EEE PC thought that it would attract teenagers or kids (which oddly does kinda tug back towards the educational market and away from "multi-billion dollar company" and support contracts.) Go install "Bob" on top of Windows and see how professional that looks. :-) Some poorly configured desktop manager you choose as a strawman shouldn't be the deciding factor as to what OS someone else should run. I could probably set up Bob to launch Word and laugh at it the same way, thus calling Windows a toy just the same - but would that mean very much? There are other distros with other UI's, some more professional looking than Vista. http://art.gnome.org/preview.php?image=screenshots/gnome218/DarkFire2.jpg http://art.gnome.org/preview.php?image=screenshots/gnome218/DarkFire.jpg http://art.gnome.org/preview.php?image=screenshots/gnome218/UbuntuCompizAWN… http://art.gnome.org/preview.php?image=screenshots/gnome218/CurretnSetup.jpg http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.4-1.png http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.4-2.png http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.4-6.png http://polishlinux.org/reviews/kde-4-1-rev-777000/a1405b89b3819b74546ddfa2f… http://polishlinux.org/reviews/kde-4-1-rev-777000/fd039fbc84988beba6c0ae228… http://liquidat.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/dolphin-selection.png http://liquidat.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/kde-pim-kde4.png http://liquidat.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/marble-mercator.png Go compare XP to Suse, Fedora, Ubuntu, or Debian instead. If you're the GUI candy kinda guy, configure those with KDE 4.1. If you've got some old poor PC that's sitting in a closet somewhere, maybe you can try Damn Small Linux or a distro with XFCE such as Xubuntu and see if you might put it to some good use instead of languishing away just because windows is too slow on it. Note that you can do the same for FreeBSD (or OpenSolaris, etc.). It's not just Linux that's a valid choice. And you know what, if this is the EEE PC version of Linux: http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20071204172028328/Asus-701-Internet.html it doesn't look any uglier (or toy like) than this: http://techrepublic.com.com/2347-10878_11-4395-4410.html?seq=15 Either that, or they try to change the subject from the topic of an educational discount (presumably for college kids) to all sorts of other things such as Office 2007 incompatibility with Open Office, or that how multi-billion dollar companies run their IT departments, or comparing OS's on "toy" computers? :-D Of course, you can always accuse me of this: http://xkcd.com/386/ :-)

Its just a matter of personal preference.

There is NO WAY on this earth I am putting Linux on my wife's laptop, and the kids machines.

First off, Linux is awesome geekware, but it is NOT for the masses - I'll throw the little NetBooks out there as examples. Put the Asus EEE PC with Linux next to version with XP / Vista, and there is NO comparison - it even LOOKS like a cartoony toy.

Does 'we have several thousand fulltime employees all over the world, a few billions dollars in revenue per year and very healthy profits and we also have a pretty good market position' count as 'serious'?