30 Apr
2017
30 Apr
'17
9:38 p.m.
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop.
Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
<https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this
purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I
didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
TTFN - Guy
1 May
1 May
5:42 a.m.
On May 1, 2017, at 12:38 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282
at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this
purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I
didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
into my shop.
What do they use 3-phase for? Motors? I remember disk drives with 3 phase motors. If
so, a VFD is a good low cost solution since those are specifically designed for driving
motors.
paul
8:46 a.m.
On 05/01/2017 07:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Some of the larger load devices may use actual 3-phase power
supplies. So, the 3-phase power either runs through a
3-phase transformer, or is rectified and run through a
switching converter to make the DC power. These could be
pretty hard to reconfigure to run off single-phase power.
(The IBM 360's use a "converter-inverter" that rectified the
3-phase 208V power to 300 V DC, and then inverted it to
regulated 120 V 2.5KHz single-phase AC for the various power
supplies.) Not sure if any of Guy's equipment use a similar
scheme. The 2821 unit record control does use a LOT of
power to run the 1403 printer.
Jon
On May 1,
2017, at 12:38 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282
at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this
purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they won?t
be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I
didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
into my shop.
What do they use 3-phase for? Motors? I remember disk drives
with 3 phase motors. If so, a VFD is a good low cost solution since those are
specifically designed for driving motors.
6:59 a.m.
Beautiful.
--
Anders Nelson
+1 (517) 775-6129
www.erogear.com
On May 1, 2017 12:38 AM, "Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk" <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM
4331 Mainframe this
past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/
150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had
rented for this purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks
will be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some
items, they won?t be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and
verify that I didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power
to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single
phase coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
TTFN - Guy
8:39 a.m.
On 04/30/2017 11:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM
4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282
at N04/NrX91K>
WOW, looking at those photos gave me goosebumps!
Hmm, depends what actually needs the 3-phase power. There
are home-made and commercial rotary phase converters. Great
for motors, but you need to work on them carefully to make
sure they are balanced well enough for electronic loads.
The motor loads help balance it better, but the electronic
loads cause the generated leg to sag.
Jon
9:43 a.m.
Sweet!
On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282
at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this
purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I
didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
TTFN - Guy
9:48 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
Sent: 01 May 2017 05:39
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past
weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
<https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for
this purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will
be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they
won?t be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify
that I didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power
to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase
coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford electricians, who
wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room into which the 4361 (I think it
was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341) was placed. I don't think we ever loaded
them at 100amps but that was what IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the other for
the CPU. If I remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you have
AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise.
TTFN - Guy
Dave
9:53 a.m.
Aren't these water cooled?
I seem to remember hoses.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Dave Wade G4UGM via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 9:48:52 AM
To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts'
Subject: RE: IBM 4331 Mainframe
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
Sent: 01 May 2017 05:39
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past
weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
<https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for
this purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will
be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they
won?t be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify
that I didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power
to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase
coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford electricians, who
wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room into which the 4361 (I think it
was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341) was placed. I don't think we ever loaded
them at 100amps but that was what IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the other for
the CPU. If I remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you have
AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise.
TTFN - Guy
Dave
9:57 a.m.
On May 1, 2017, at 9:53 AM, dwight via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Aren't these water cooled?
I seem to remember hoses.
No this is all air cooled.
TTFN - Guy
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Dave Wade G4UGM via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 9:48:52 AM
To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts'
Subject: RE: IBM 4331 Mainframe
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
Sent: 01 May 2017 05:39
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past
weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
<https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for
this purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will
be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they
won?t be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify
that I didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power
to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase
coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford electricians,
who wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room into which the 4361 (I think
it was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341) was placed. I don't think we ever
loaded them at 100amps but that was what IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the
other for the CPU. If I remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you
have AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise.
TTFN - Guy
Dave
10:49 a.m.
Just hope you don't have a head crash. Had one when I was at Ft.
Ben Harrison (a long time ago, when the 4341 was just going into
production. We had one of the first!) and it sounded like the building
was coming down. Hate to think the effect it would have on your
neighbors. :-)
bill
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
[cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 12:57 PM
To: dwight; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe
On May 1, 2017, at 9:53 AM, dwight via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Aren't these water cooled?
I seem to remember hoses.
No this is all air cooled.
TTFN - Guy
10:57 a.m.
On May 1, 2017, at 10:49 AM, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com> wrote:
Just hope you don't have a head crash. Had one when I was at Ft.
Ben Harrison (a long time ago, when the 4341 was just going into
production. We had one of the first!) and it sounded like the building
was coming down. Hate to think the effect it would have on your
neighbors. :-)
The 3340 drives are winchester pack drives. So the heads are in the packs themselves.
A head crash means that the pack is toast (but it is usually) but doesn?t render the
drive
inoperable (just put in another pack).
TTFN - Guy
11:59 a.m.
________________________________________
From: Guy Sotomayor Jr [ggs at shiresoft.com]
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 1:57 PM
To: Bill Gunshannon
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe
On May 1, 2017, at 10:49 AM, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com> wrote:
Just hope you don't have a head crash. Had one when I was at Ft.
Ben Harrison (a long time ago, when the 4341 was just going into
production. We had one of the first!) and it sounded like the building
was coming down. Hate to think the effect it would have on your
neighbors. :-)
The 3340 drives are winchester pack drives. So the heads are in the packs themselves.
A head crash means that the pack is toast (but it is usually) but doesn?t render the
drive
inoperable (just put in another pack).
TTFN - Guy
________________________________________
Yeah, pretty sure those were too. First tool the IBM Tech brought in
was a shop vac. He vacuumed out what was left and had us running
again in about 2 hours.
Those were the days!!
bill
11:16 a.m.
No, these were very much Air Cooled. IBM's advertising implied they could be
run in a normal office environment, e.g. as here:-
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_2423PH4331.h
tml
but in practice that layout would not work, clearance was required round all
sides as can be seen from the Physical Planning Manual which is available
here
http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/IBM/Mainframe/Hardware/Syst
em/GA24-3667-1_IBM4300InstallationManual-PhysicalPlanning_Sept79.pdf
One issue with these machines was that whilst they were (and still are I
guess) S/370 compatible, in some ways they were perhaps at the time not
considered "Mainframes" by the owners of real S/370 machines.
This was because System/370 I/O is normally managed by a "Channel Program"
which is executed by a "channel processor" and on the bigger boxes this was
a separate "CPU"
But on the 4331, 41 and 61 (but not 81) the main CPU was also used to
execute the channel programs, so whilst the CPU was 3x faster than a
370/115, under heavy i/I it would slow down as it was diverted to running
the channel programs.
There is a whole chapter on this in:-
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/43xx/4331/GA33-1527-0_IBM_4331_Pr
ocessor_Channel_Characteristics_Apr79.pdf
starting at page 12. You may also read this note:-
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=4331BNCH
<http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=4331BNCH&ft=MEMO&args=4331+channel+
cpu#hit> &ft=MEMO&args=4331+channel+cpu#hit
and this
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=308X:PCM
<http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=308X:PCM&ft=MEMO&args=4331+channel+
cpu#47> &ft=MEMO&args=4331+channel+cpu#47
about the problems that were had with this CPU.
Dave Wade
From: dwight [mailto:dkelvey at hotmail.com]
Sent: 01 May 2017 17:54
To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe
Aren't these water cooled?
I seem to remember hoses.
Dwight
_____
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> > on behalf of Dave Wade G4UGM via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 9:48:52 AM
To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts'
Subject: RE: IBM 4331 Mainframe
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
Sent: 01 May 2017 05:39
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >
Subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this
past
weekend from where it was currently stored to my shop.
Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
<https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26' box truck that I had
rented
for
this purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks
will
be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some
items, they
won't be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and
verify
that I didn't
leave anything behind. I'm mostly worried about cables at this
point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough
"clean" 3-phase power
to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single
phase
coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the University of Salford
electricians, who wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for the room
into which the 4361 (I think it was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341)
was placed. I don't think we ever loaded them at 100amps but that was what
IBM required. One was for the AirCon and the other for the CPU. If I
remember properly those disks are the truculent ones. Assuming you have
AirCon they need to sit for several hours to acclimatise.
TTFN - Guy
Dave
11:36 a.m.
On 5/1/2017 9:48 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote:
Yes I remember having a gentle discussion with the
University of Salford electricians, who wanted to know why I wanted 2 x 100amp feeds for
the room into which the 4361 (I think it was a 4361, might have been a 4331 or 4341) was
placed. I don't think we ever loaded them at 100amps but that was what IBM required.
One was for the AirCon and the other for the CPU. If I remember properly those disks are
the truculent ones. Assuming you have AirCon they need to sit for several hours to
acclimatise.
The 4361 is the real
gem to get in this type of system. There is a
builtin storage director as well as the 4 port comm controller.
The 43xx's all have 4 ports of 3270 with at least one of them being the
3215 (I think) which is the console boot port. The others are all
3278s. so you don't need to have a 3174 of any sort unless you have
lots of lines, or need comms options.
Guy will have to have not only the DASD, but a storage director box
running for this system.
I think you hooked 3370's up to the 4361 to get one string of 200mb /
drive DASD. So add a 3411 small tape, and you had a nice compact "PC"
mainframe. The fact you could run w/o a storage director was good
because it it was just one more big power hog.
BTW, Guy, I've got 2 or 3 of the suitcase setup boxes for this series.
I collected them just for the hell of it. If you end up shy of them,
let me know.
thanks
Jim
TTFN - Guy
Dave 
11:34 a.m.
On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 12:38 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM
4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282
at N04/NrX91K>
Very cool. We had a 4331 at Software Results from around 1984 through
about 1988. We got it because we needed to configure our own HASP,
3780, and SNA lines for testing our products and reproducing customer
issues (and previous attempts to rent time on outside machines took
too long to get configured on demand, etc). Outside of pushing test
data around, we also used it for designing new products with CBDS2
(Circuit Board Design System 2). We had a huge (over 20") Tektronix
storage tube for displaying parts of the schematics and layout. ISTR
we went with the 4331 because it was the smallest machine that could
give us the bisync and SNA lines we needed for its primary use. It
was vast overkill for the workload we had.
It took up as much floorspace as two of our VAX systems that supported
dozens of users, but was a thing unto itself.
Nice setup!
-ethan
3 May
3 May
1:23 p.m.
Let me know what you come up with for the 3 phase converter solution. I have the exact
same problem right now to provide power for my 3 3420 tapes and the 3803 controller. Also
have 220V 50A single phase coming in the shop (er, garage), courtesy of the EV charger.
Marc
On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop.
Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K
<https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this
purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they won?t be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I
didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
TTFN - Guy
10:04 p.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
I use a solid state one, an older version of this:
http://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/products/phase-perfect/pt330spec…
Bought on ebay quite a few years ago.
I also have a small Phoenix rotary phase converter, also from ebay. This
one seems to have unbalanced outputs.
I believe it is for motor loads only.
Bob
On 5/3/2017 1:23 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote:
Let me know what you come up with for the 3 phase
converter solution. I have the exact same problem right now to provide power for my 3 3420
tapes and the 3803 controller. Also have 220V 50A single phase coming in the shop (er,
garage), courtesy of the EV charger.
Marc
On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Just to let folks know that I finally moved the IBM 4331 Mainframe this past weekend
from where it was currently stored to my shop. Pictures are here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282 at N04/NrX91K <https://www.flickr.com/gp/150223282
at N04/NrX91K>
As can be seen in the pictures, it filled a 26? box truck that I had rented for this
purpose.
Right now I just have it placed somewhat in my shop. Some early tasks will be:
* I have to verify that I have everything. Even if I missed some items, they won?t
be
scrapped. I just need to go over what is currently in my shop and verify that I
didn?t
leave anything behind. I?m mostly worried about cables at this point.
* I have to figure out some way to produce enough ?clean? 3-phase power to run the
peripherals (the CPU is 220v single phase) as I only have 220v single phase coming
into my shop.
Starting to power it up will probably be a while yet. ;-)
TTFN - Guy
--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org
11:26 p.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
Bob,
Thanks, that looks just about perfect. Solid state, true sinusoid 3 phase, 30A continuous
but can do 140A for 4 seconds - seems made to power a big bunch of vacuum column tapes.
Marc
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at
classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: Bob Rosenbloom <bobalan at sbcglobal.net>, "cctalk at
classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 10:04 PM
To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
I use a solid state one, an older version of this:
http://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/products/phase-perfect/pt330spec…
Bought on ebay quite a few years ago.
I also have a small Phoenix rotary phase converter, also from ebay. This
one seems to have unbalanced outputs.
I believe it is for motor loads only.
Bob
4 May
4 May
7:36 a.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP? IBM?s docs all
specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem
to specify HP. If I?m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found
it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure it?s sized properly.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
On May 3, 2017, at 11:26 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Bob,
Thanks, that looks just about perfect. Solid state, true sinusoid 3 phase, 30A continuous
but can do 140A for 4 seconds - seems made to power a big bunch of vacuum column tapes.
Marc
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at
classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: Bob Rosenbloom <bobalan at sbcglobal.net>, "cctalk at
classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 10:04 PM
To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
I use a solid state one, an older version of this:
http://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/products/phase-perfect/pt330spec…
Bought on ebay quite a few years ago.
I also have a small Phoenix rotary phase converter, also from ebay. This
one seems to have unbalanced outputs.
I believe it is for motor loads only.
Bob
8:04 a.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase
currents and/or HP? IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase
converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I?m going to spend serious
coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure
it?s sized properly.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will
vaporize a phase converter.
Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three
single phase identical UPS system and synch the phases of the three
converter output circuits to proper three phase.
He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got. I can forward info
if you would like on this approach from him. One thing that helps is he
snagged and maintained the drawings of all of the APC and other output
circuits over the years and has good info on how to pull this off.
The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase
loads, but you may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware
directly off of the mains.
thanks
Jim
8:36 a.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On May 4, 2017, at 8:04 AM, jim stephens via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
OK, that?s not helping. Here?s what I have (from IBM site planning docs GC22-7064-10 and
GC22-7069-2):
3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase
3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2)
3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase
3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2)
2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase
1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
So I have 3 potential power feeds:
DASD: 3.9 kVA
Tape: 10.5 kVA
I/O: 4.1 kVA
For a total of 18.5 kVA
So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA?s map into 208v 3-phase amps? Depending
upon how that works out I need to figure out if 2/3 converters make sense or just one big
one.
My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and divide by 208.
That gives me just shy of 90A. Do I then divide by 3 to get A/phase? If so, then it?s
30A per phase which seems reasonable. But I don?t know if that?s the correct
formulation.
TTFN - Guy
Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v
3-phase currents and/or HP? IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase
converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I?m going to spend serious
coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure
it?s sized properly.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will
vaporize a phase converter.
Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three single phase identical
UPS system and synch the phases of the three converter output circuits to proper three
phase.
He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got. I can forward info if you
would like on this approach from him. One thing that helps is he snagged and maintained
the drawings of all of the APC and other output circuits over the years and has good info
on how to pull this off.
The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase loads, but you
may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware directly off of the mains.
8:59 a.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On 05/04/2017 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
18.5
KVA /208 = 88.94
88.94 / 1.732 = 51 A
Since this is given as KVA, it should include the power factor.
On May 4,
2017, at 8:04 AM, jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/4/2017 7:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
OK, that?s not helping. Here?s what I have (from IBM site planning docs
GC22-7064-10 and GC22-7069-2):
3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase
3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2)
3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase
3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2)
2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase
1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
So I have 3 potential power feeds:
DASD: 3.9 kVA
Tape: 10.5 kVA
I/O: 4.1 kVA
For a total of 18.5 kVA
So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA?s map into 208v 3-phase amps? Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v
3-phase currents and/or HP? IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase
converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I?m going to spend serious
coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure
it?s sized properly.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
You will also need to get the motor start information, or you will
vaporize a phase converter.
Another possible approach that a friend is taking is to take three single phase identical
UPS system and synch the phases of the three converter output circuits to proper three
phase.
He's made up one from three junk APC units I've got. I can forward info if you
would like on this approach from him. One thing that helps is he snagged and maintained
the drawings of all of the APC and other output circuits over the years and has good info
on how to pull this off.
The quadrature power will be something to deal with on your three phase loads, but you
may be able to run quite a bit of single phase hardware directly off of the mains.
Depending upon how that works out I need to figure
out if 2/3 converters make sense or just one big one.
My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and divide by 208.
That gives me just shy of 90A. Do I then divide by 3 to get A/phase? If so, then it?s
30A per phase which seems reasonable. But I don?t know if that?s the correct formulation.
It isn't. See above. A lot of this is circulating current,
so the real power draw from the mains will be less. Still,
most likely over 10 real-power KW from your 240 V
single-phase mains.
Jon
Jon
9:10 a.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On May 4, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Jon Elson <elson at
pico-systems.com> wrote:
On 05/04/2017 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
OK, that?s not helping. Here?s what I have (from IBM site planning docs GC22-7064-10 and
GC22-7069-2):
3340-A2 DASD: 2.2 kVA 3-phase
3340-B2 DASD: 1.7 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3340-A2)
3803 Tape Control unit: 1.8 kVA 3-phase
3420 Tape drive: 2.9 kVA 3-phase (powered from 3803) (x2)
2821 control unit: 1.4 kVA 3-phase
1403N1 Printer: 1.5 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
2540 card reader/punch: 1.2 kVA 3-phase (powered from 2821)
So I have 3 potential power feeds:
DASD: 3.9 kVA
Tape: 10.5 kVA
I/O: 4.1 kVA
For a total of 18.5 kVA
So the several $1000 question is how do the kVA?s map into 208v 3-phase amps? 18.5
KVA /208 = 88.94
88.94 / 1.732 = 51 A
Since this is given as KVA, it should include the power factor.
Thanks.
So if I want to run it off of one converter, that needs to be able to supply 51A. If I
split it, then I would end up with:
Tape: 30A
DASD: 11A
I/O: 12A
So at this point it comes down to cost. If I can find one that can supply 60A that?s
reasonable that would work. Otherwise I?d likely get either 2 30A converters or 1 30A and
2 15A (if they come in those sizes). ;-) I?ll just have to figure out what makes the
most sense cost wise.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
Depending upon how that works out I need to
figure out if 2/3 converters make sense or just one big one.
My simple minded conversion is to take the 18.5kVA, multiply by 1000 and divide by 208.
That gives me just shy of 90A. Do I then divide by 3 to get A/phase? If so, then it?s
30A per phase which seems reasonable. But I don?t know if that?s the correct formulation.
It isn't. See above. A lot of this is circulating current, so the real power
draw from the mains will be less. Still, most likely over 10 real-power KW from your 240
V single-phase mains.
8:54 a.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On 05/04/2017 09:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase
currents and/or HP? IBM?s docs all specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase
converters (other than what Bob posted) seem to specify HP. If I?m going to spend serious
coin on a phase converter (I think I found it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure
it?s sized properly.
Line current times voltage give you KVA per line. Then,
multiply by 1.732 to get total KVA. KW / .7457 give HP, not
counting losses or power factor. You don't actually need a
3-phase source, you only need to generate one new phase
(although if the 4331, etc. want 208, you probably don't
want to feed it 240 V). But, you DO need a true sine wave
source, and VFDs do not produce sine waves, they put out 400
V PWM waveforms that look fine to a motor, but not good at
all to electronic loads.
It is possible that a hefty used VFD with an appropriate
filter would turn it into a nice sine wave at lower cost.
For multiple KVA loads, that might be a more economical way
to go, if you don't mind creating such a filter. (Probably
be good to put a transformer between the VFD/filter and the
computers, so the line could be balanced around neutral, too.)
Jon
9:17 a.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
On May 4, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
... But, you DO need a true sine wave source, and VFDs do not produce sine waves, they
put out 400 V PWM waveforms that look fine to a motor, but not good at all to electronic
loads.
I wonder how true that is. Consider that (for machines of this era) power supplies are
probably transformer input, to a rectifier and then a filter. The transformer would
smooth out the VFD output pulses, and whatever is left would definitely be removed by the
output filter. The only question I can see is whether the rectifier diodes have enough
reverse voltage margin to deal with whatever peaks pass through the transformer. (The
transformer itself certainly will, given normal insulation design/test practice for power
transformers.)
If the power supply is a swiching regulator, the details are slightly different but the
overall picture is similar. Then you begin with a rectifier, which would have to be able
to deal with the input spikes, followed by some amount of filtering. Once past that I
don't see any further issues.
An electronic circuit that looks at the incoming AC waveform directly would certainly have
issues with a VFD, but I can't think of too many examples of that. A KW-11/L is one
exception that comes to mind... :-)
paul
9:05 a.m.
New subject: IBM 4331 Mainframe 3 phase converter
kVA is simply kilovolts times amps. It is roughly a synonym for kW, except that it
probably ignores the phase angle. So for resistive loads, kVA == kW but for inductive or
capacitive loads, kVA would be larger.
1 hp == 746 W. But when people talk about phase converter hp limits, they are looking not
just at the steady state load but also at the startup peak current, which is a fairly
substantial multiple of the steady state load.
For your application, you probably have some motor loads and possibly some others (power
supplies). If they are mostly motor loads, use the steady state kVA spec and convert that
back to hp by dividing by 0.746. Alternatively, if the converter has a rated steady state
load, match that against the steady state power spec for the machine. The peak current
handling of the converter will take care of either motor startup peaks, or power supply
inrush current.
paul
On May 4, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Does anyone know how to convert KVa to 208v 3-phase currents and/or HP? IBM?s docs all
specify power in KVa and most of the 3 phase converters (other than what Bob posted) seem
to specify HP. If I?m going to spend serious coin on a phase converter (I think I found
it online for ~$3k?ouch!), I want to make sure it?s sized properly.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
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26 comments
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