25 Oct
2007
25 Oct
'07
8:30 p.m.
Hi everyone,
Being personally quite interested in DEC's laboratory systems, I
stumbled a few days ago upon some scant details on DEC's nuclear medical
imaging system, the Gamma-11. Apparently this PDP-11 was designed to be
connected to a Gamma Camera, and had a VT11 or VSV11 display system
connected to it. As well, along with it came a modified version of
RT-11.
I was wondering if anyone on the list had one of these machines and knew
what parts made the hardware a Gamma-11, as well if anyone had manuals
online that they might share, as well as potentially the software for
the unit. There's not really much that I can see on Bitsavers, but I
might not have looked hard enough; I found the VSV11 and VT11 option
manuals, but that seemed to be about it.
Cheers,
Phil
26 Oct
26 Oct
1:59 a.m.
Philippe Vachon <philippe at cowpig.ca> wrote:
Being personally quite interested in DEC's
laboratory systems, I
stumbled a few days ago upon some scant details on DEC's nuclear medical
imaging system, the Gamma-11. Apparently this PDP-11 was designed to be
connected to a Gamma Camera, and had a VT11 or VSV11 display system
connected to it. As well, along with it came a modified version of
RT-11.
I was wondering if anyone on the list had one of these machines and knew
what parts made the hardware a Gamma-11, as well if anyone had manuals
online that they might share, as well as potentially the software for
the unit. There's not really much that I can see on Bitsavers, but I
might not have looked hard enough; I found the VSV11 and VT11 option
manuals, but that seemed to be about it.
Phil -
I have worked with many different medical scanners based around
PDP-11's. In every single case, they took a PDP-11 processor,
a Unibus or Q-bus backplane, some memory and a disk drive or two,
and bolted it onto an enormous kick-ass CAT scanner or NMR machine.
None of these were Gamma-11's.
Invariably the OS run was either RT-11 or RSX-11. With RSX-11
you usually had a custom device driver to talk to the specific
componentry but lots of time with RT-11SJ they just run around the
I/O page with what we'd call today "user code" with wild abandon.
So this doesn't help you find Gamma-11, but it does let you know
that for every Gamma-11 system out there, there were at least ten
or twenty other medical imaging systems that used -11's. I suspect
that some folks at DEC figured out that a lot of their systems were
being sold to put into medical imaging systems so they took some
common choices and put them into a catalog as a "starting point"
configuration, but real medical imaging vendors had specific needs so they just
specified what they needed and not what they didn't need.
For CAT scanners, the amount of computation needed to do the
backprojection usually resulted in a dedicated array processor
that spanned dozens of big boards and sucked up very large
amounts of power (often ECL). Well, that power sucking was not
really noticeable compared to all the X-ray guns :-)
The PDP-11 componentry pales in comparison to the backprojector
and table and stuff!
When I was working with these professionally, on a couple of
occasions the customer would offer to ship me an entire CAT scanner
for me to install in my basement at home. I never took them up on it!
Tim.
5:26 a.m.
I suspect
that some folks at DEC figured out that a lot of their systems were
being sold to put into medical imaging systems so they took some
common choices and put them into a catalog as a "starting point"
configuration...
Basically, a fancy paint job, like the Clinical-12s - PDP-12s just
painted blue. I wonder if they charged more money for that?
--
Will
4:06 p.m.
Hi everyone,
Being personally quite interested in DEC's laboratory systems, I
stumbled a few days ago upon some scant details on DEC's nuclear medical
imaging system, the Gamma-11. Apparently this PDP-11 was designed to be
connected to a Gamma Camera, and had a VT11 or VSV11 display system
connected to it. As well, along with it came a modified version of
RT-11.
I was wondering if anyone on the list had one of these machines and knew
what parts made the hardware a Gamma-11, as well if anyone had manuals
I don't have one, but I did repair one about 10 years ago (it was still
being used for 'real' work back then), so I have some idea as to what was
inside. I never worked on the camera side of things, so I can't comment
on that.
The machine consisted of a normal 11/34 processor (I can't rememebr if
there was a floating point oard in it or not) with a grpahics display
system, I think it was a VS60. There was an RL11 disk controller linked
to (IIRC) a single RL01 drive.
There was also a 5.25" high expanison box. This contains 2 4-slot
backplanee. One was Unibus, linked to the 11/34 Unius, and contains (IIRC
again) the RL11 and the Unibus end of a DW11-B. The other was Q-bus, and
contains the other end of the DW11-B. It also contained 3 special Qbus
cards which were the interface to the camera. I probably took copies of
the printsets for those, but don't expect me to find them in the near future.
The only part I had to repair was the RL11, that was standard. So alas I
didn't get to look at any of the 'interesting' bits.
-tony
27 Oct
27 Oct
8:48 a.m.
On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 12:06:42AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
I don't have one, but I did repair one about 10 years ago (it was still
being used for 'real' work back then), so I have some idea as to what was
inside. I never worked on the camera side of things, so I can't comment
on that.
The machine consisted of a normal 11/34 processor (I can't rememebr if
there was a floating point oard in it or not) with a grpahics display
system, I think it was a VS60. There was an RL11 disk controller linked
to (IIRC) a single RL01 drive.
There was also a 5.25" high expanison box. This contains 2 4-slot
backplanee. One was Unibus, linked to the 11/34 Unius, and contains (IIRC
again) the RL11 and the Unibus end of a DW11-B. The other was Q-bus, and
contains the other end of the DW11-B. It also contained 3 special Qbus
cards which were the interface to the camera. I probably took copies of
the printsets for those, but don't expect me to find them in the near future.
The only part I had to repair was the RL11, that was standard. So alas I
didn't get to look at any of the 'interesting' bits.
-tony
Hrmn, this is interesting; I wonder why DEC chose to use an 11/34 for
the Gamma-11, or if the machine was "upgraded" to become a Gamma-11
post-installation. I'm fairly tempted to try to pick up that boardset,
nonetheless... I imagine it is rather difficult to snag anymore though.
Thanks for the details, Tony!
<snip>
I don't recall from having not reread this whether this was a PDP-11
instrument or not, however, but this certainly remindes me of this.
Jim
Yeah, these were PDP-11s, as I recall. In skimming the article, that
seems to be what it indicates as well. I can't help but to feel sorry
for the people who were overexposed to radiation in the Therac-25, but
I get the impression that the lesson from it has been learned, but only
after prolonged time in court.
Cheers,
Phil
10:37 a.m.
just a quick question: wasn't it a poorly programmed PDP-11 that controlled
the infamous Therac 25 radiotherapy machine?
On 10/27/07, Philippe Vachon <philippe at cowpig.ca> wrote:
On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 12:06:42AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
I don't have one, but I did repair one about 10 years ago (it was still
being used for 'real' work back then), so I have some idea as to what
was
inside. I never worked on the camera side of
things, so I can't comment
on that.
The machine consisted of a normal 11/34 processor (I can't rememebr if
there was a floating point oard in it or not) with a grpahics display
system, I think it was a VS60. There was an RL11 disk controller linked
to (IIRC) a single RL01 drive.
There was also a 5.25" high expanison box. This contains 2 4-slot
backplanee. One was Unibus, linked to the 11/34 Unius, and contains
(IIRC
again) the RL11 and the Unibus end of a DW11-B.
The other was Q-bus, and
contains the other end of the DW11-B. It also contained 3 special Qbus
cards which were the interface to the camera. I probably took copies of
the printsets for those, but don't expect me to find them in the near
future.
The only part I had to repair was the RL11, that was standard. So alas I
didn't get to look at any of the 'interesting' bits.
-tony
Hrmn, this is interesting; I wonder why DEC chose to use an 11/34 for
the Gamma-11, or if the machine was "upgraded" to become a Gamma-11
post-installation. I'm fairly tempted to try to pick up that boardset,
nonetheless... I imagine it is rather difficult to snag anymore though.
Thanks for the details, Tony!
<snip>
I don't recall from having not reread this whether this was a PDP-11
instrument or not, however, but this certainly remindes me of this.
Jim
Yeah, these were PDP-11s, as I recall. In skimming the article, that
seems to be what it indicates as well. I can't help but to feel sorry
for the people who were overexposed to radiation in the Therac-25, but
I get the impression that the lesson from it has been learned, but only
after prolonged time in court.
Cheers,
Phil
11:56 a.m.
On Saturday 27 October 2007 13:37, Joe Giliberti wrote:
just a quick question: wasn't it a poorly
programmed PDP-11 that
controlled the infamous Therac 25 radiotherapy machine?
Yes.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
3:49 p.m.
Hrmn, this is interesting; I wonder why DEC chose to
use an 11/34 for
the Gamma-11, or if the machine was "upgraded" to become a Gamma-11
THe rack had a 'Gamma 11' nameplate at the top, that's how I know what it
was. Of course the processor might have been upgraded at some point. Or
maybe DEC felt that the extra address space was useful.
post-installation. I'm fairly tempted to try to
pick up that boardset,
nonetheless... I imagine it is rather difficult to snag anymore though.
I've never seen another one.
-tony
28 Oct
28 Oct
11:03 a.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Is anyone familiar with vacuum tube indicators used on transistor logic
machines?
I recently found a small rack filled with small transistor logic modules.
Each module holds a flip flop or two at most.
The modules are small PC boards with a metal frame and handle. Test points
give you the state of each transistor
on the module.
Several modules have some sort of visual indicator tube as well.
These tubes are not much larger than a standard NE-2 bulb, but they more
resemble subminiature vacuum tubes.
The tubes are marked 01037 J3, each had four leads. Two of these leads
shows a resistance of 9.8 Ohms, and
appears to be a low voltage filament. One is grounded, the other is
connected to a bus in the rack of logic.
There is no 'getter flash' inside the glass tube, so they may be some sort
of glow discharge tube.
Looking at the insides of each tube thee appears to be a very fine V style
filament and a grid-like structure, but
I see no clear anode or plate structures. There are two thin 'wires'
outside of the grid, one in front and one
behind the central grid-like / filament structure.
The logic itself is made from 2N414 transistors, mil-spec at one time,
covered in conformal coating. Markings
show this device came from the USAF Airborne Instrumentation Labs. I only
have a small part of some
larger system, but I would like to power this rack of logic up and see these
indicators in action.
There is something very familiar about these things. They remind me of
something I may have seen once
in a telephone switching application when I was in the USAF long ago.
Any idea what these things may be? I'll try to get a digital photo, but the
tubes are mounted under small
metal clips with short leads.
11:22 a.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Bob Shannon wrote:
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:03:43 -0400
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon at tiac.net>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Is anyone familiar with vacuum tube indicators used on transistor logic
machines?
I recently found a small rack filled with small transistor logic modules.
Each module holds a flip flop or two at most.
The modules are small PC boards with a metal frame and handle. Test points
give you the state of each transistor
on the module.
Several modules have some sort of visual indicator tube as well.
These tubes are not much larger than a standard NE-2 bulb, but they more
resemble subminiature vacuum tubes.
The tubes are marked 01037 J3, each had four leads. Two of these leads shows
a resistance of 9.8 Ohms, and
appears to be a low voltage filament. One is grounded, the other is
connected to a bus in the rack of logic.
There is no 'getter flash' inside the glass tube, so they may be some sort of
glow discharge tube.
Looking at the insides of each tube thee appears to be a very fine V style
filament and a grid-like structure, but
I see no clear anode or plate structures. There are two thin 'wires' outside
of the grid, one in front and one
behind the central grid-like / filament structure.
The logic itself is made from 2N414 transistors, mil-spec at one time,
covered in conformal coating. Markings
show this device came from the USAF Airborne Instrumentation Labs. I only
have a small part of some
larger system, but I would like to power this rack of logic up and see these
indicators in action.
There is something very familiar about these things. They remind me of
something I may have seen once
in a telephone switching application when I was in the USAF long ago.
Any idea what these things may be? I'll try to get a digital photo, but the
tubes are mounted under small
metal clips with short leads.
Probably simple VFDs, like magic eye tubes on old radios.
Leads are 2 filament/cathode, 1 grid and 1 plate (flourescent target)
Probably very low filament voltage
Peter Wallace
11:41 a.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Probably simple VFDs, like magic eye tubes on old
radios.
Leads are 2 filament/cathode, 1 grid and 1 plate (flourescent target)
Probably very low filament voltage
Low everything. Except cost. Those little critters are getting quite
hard to find. And Etco once had them for a penny a piece!
--
Will
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Any idea what these things may be?
The modules are just generic logic modules, as you probably guessed.
RCS has a rack of these that sound very similar. Are some of your
modules color coded? We never figured out who was the maker, although
admittedly we did not try very hard.
These generic logic modules were a minor success in the factory
automation market, selling to the guys that could look beyond the
relay.
--
Will
29 Oct
29 Oct
5:14 p.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Yes, the modules are color-coded.
The "F/F" modules with the indicator tubes (6977's) are silver, with a
contrasting black stripe around the slot where the logic indicator tube
shines through.
There are also some reddish 'D' modules, and one or two other types.
What's sort of interesting is that the 'F/F' module and the 'D'
module
both use exactly the same artwork, but have very different drilling
patterns.
The modules don't look very similar, but each type has 'extra' etch and
pad areas that are used on the other module types. Someone really
thought this through carefully.
These logic modules are an interesting sort of 'logic family', like RTL or
TTL
that's not been shrunken down onto chips.
Oh yes, I just got the logic display tubes to fire up on the bench.
The grids glow! They are coated with phosphor. The anode is totally
dark, and a tiny voltage on the grid switches the phosphors on and off.
A vacuum tube triode designed for 'transistorized computers'! Very cool.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Any idea what
these things may be?
The modules are just generic logic modules, as you probably guessed.
RCS has a rack of these that sound very similar. Are some of your
modules color coded? We never figured out who was the maker, although
admittedly we did not try very hard.
These generic logic modules were a minor success in the factory
automation market, selling to the guys that could look beyond the
relay.
--
Will
30 Oct
30 Oct
3:51 a.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
"William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
General Automation had such a line, even after they went into minicomputers.
And how they were selling generic logic modules to a rather captive
market after, for example, DEC had stopped years before.
It was odd how some of their form factors were exactly the same as Q-bus and
Unibus :-).
Tim.
Any idea what
these things may be?
The modules are just generic logic modules, as you probably guessed.
RCS has a rack of these that sound very similar. Are some of your
modules color coded? We never figured out who was the maker, although
admittedly we did not try very hard.
These generic logic modules were a minor success in the factory
automation market, selling to the guys that could look beyond the
relay.
28 Oct
28 Oct
2:44 p.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Is anyone familiar with vacuum tube indicators used on transistor logic
machines?
I recently found a small rack filled with small transistor logic modules.
Each module holds a flip flop or two at most.
The modules are small PC boards with a metal frame and handle. Test points
give you the state of each transistor
on the module.
Several modules have some sort of visual indicator tube as well.
These tubes are not much larger than a standard NE-2 bulb, but they more
resemble subminiature vacuum tubes.
The tubes are marked 01037 J3, each had four leads. Two of these leads
shows a resistance of 9.8 Ohms, and
appears to be a low voltage filament. One is grounded, the other is
connected to a bus in the rack of logic.
There is no 'getter flash' inside the glass tube, so they may be some sort
of glow discharge tube.
Looking at the insides of each tube thee appears to be a very fine V style
filament and a grid-like structure, but
I see no clear anode or plate structures. There are two thin 'wires'
outside of the grid, one in front and one
behind the central grid-like / filament structure.
These sound a lot like what we caleld 'DM160's in the UK. These are about
the size of a 1.24" (3AG??) cartridge fuse and have 4 active leads coming
out of one end.
2 of them are a filament (direcctly heated cathode), running at about 1V.
Another is the anode/target, which IIRC has a grid-like structure, It is
normally riun at about 30V +ve wrt the filament. The fourth wire is the
control grid, IIRC with the grid at the smae voltage as the filament the
device glows green, a -3V grid bias cuts it off and it's dark. Needless
to say the actual current drawn y the cotnrol grid from the transistor
logic is minimal/
-tony
6:25 p.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Tony Duell wrote:
Nice picture of a machine using the DM160s:
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/sagnell/id14.htm
John :-#)#
--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
Is anyone
familiar with vacuum tube indicators used on transistor logic
machines?
...
Several modules have some sort of visual indicator tube as well.
These tubes are not much larger than a standard NE-2 bulb, but they more
resemble subminiature vacuum tubes.
The tubes are marked 01037 J3, each had four leads. Two of these leads
shows a resistance of 9.8 Ohms, and
appears to be a low voltage filament. One is grounded, the other is
connected to a bus in the rack of logic.
There is no 'getter flash' inside the glass tube, so they may be some sort
of glow discharge tube.
Looking at the insides of each tube thee appears to be a very fine V style
filament and a grid-like structure, but
I see no clear anode or plate structures. There are two thin 'wires'
outside of the grid, one in front and one
behind the central grid-like / filament structure.
These sound a lot like what we caleld 'DM160's in the UK. These are about
the size of a 1.24" (3AG??) cartridge fuse and have 4 active leads coming
out of one end.
2 of them are a filament (direcctly heated cathode), running at about 1V.
Another is the anode/target, which IIRC has a grid-like structure, It is
normally riun at about 30V +ve wrt the filament. The fourth wire is the
control grid, IIRC with the grid at the smae voltage as the filament the
device glows green, a -3V grid bias cuts it off and it's dark. Needless
to say the actual current drawn y the cotnrol grid from the transistor
logic is minimal/
-tony
29 Oct
29 Oct
1:59 a.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Hi,
tony said:
These sound a lot like what we caleld 'DM160's
in the UK. These are about
the size of a 1.24" (3AG??) cartridge fuse and have 4 active leads coming
out of one end.
2 of them are a filament (direcctly heated cathode), running at about 1V.
Another is the anode/target, which IIRC has a grid-like structure, It is
normally riun at about 30V +ve wrt the filament. The fourth wire is the
control grid, IIRC with the grid at the smae voltage as the filament the
device glows green, a -3V grid bias cuts it off and it's dark. Needless
to say the actual current drawn y the cotnrol grid from the transistor
logic is minimal/
According to my data book:
Filament 1.0V 0.03A
Target Volts 50V
Target Current 0.585mA
Grid Voltage Change 0 to -3
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
28 Oct
28 Oct
4:34 p.m.
New subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
Hi,
tony said:
The voltages are not that critical. The first time I played with one of
these vales was about 30 years ago. It was certainly when there were 4
Henry's Radio shops in the Edgware Road, because that's where I bought a
little assembly of 4 DM160s from.
Anyway, I rememebr heating the filament with a single AA cell. A bit
overvoltage, and in retrospect I should have added a series resistor, but
the filament didn't burn out. There was a very dull read glow visile in
the dark -- I suspect there should be no glow at all at the right
operating voltage.
For the target supply I used a 22.5V dry battery, probably a B122. That
gave a good green glow. I am sure I've seen 30V quoted in other databooks.
As for the cotnrol grid, it's hard to overvoltage that. Certainly a 5V
swing will do no harm at all, if you want to drive one of these devices
These sound a lot like what we caleld
'DM160's in the UK. These are about
the size of a 1.24" (3AG??) cartridge fuse and have 4 active leads coming
out of one end.
2 of them are a filament (direcctly heated cathode), running at about 1V.
Another is the anode/target, which IIRC has a grid-like structure, It is
normally riun at about 30V +ve wrt the filament. The fourth wire is the
control grid, IIRC with the grid at the smae voltage as the filament the
device glows green, a -3V grid bias cuts it off and it's dark. Needless
to say the actual current drawn y the cotnrol grid from the transistor
logic is minimal/
According to my data book:
Filament 1.0V 0.03A
Target Volts 50V
Target Current 0.585mA
Grid Voltage Change 0 to -3 from a TTL circuit.
-tony
26 Oct
26 Oct
7:25 p.m.
Hi All
Just Last month I picked up a Tracor Northern console which was hooked
up to (I think) either a scanning electron microscope or some kind of EC
design system. I picked it up for $15 as I wanted the 11/73, the DQ616
and the floppy controllers, as well as the syquest MFM removable optical
drive! The rest of the graphics subsystem is sitting in my shed with my
Vision One which was another pdp run graphics subsystem. The Vision One
was use for astronomy I think!
Cheers
Tom
Philippe Vachon wrote:
Hi everyone,
Being personally quite interested in DEC's laboratory systems, I
stumbled a few days ago upon some scant details on DEC's nuclear medical
imaging system, the Gamma-11. Apparently this PDP-11 was designed to be
connected to a Gamma Camera, and had a VT11 or VSV11 display system
connected to it. As well, along with it came a modified version of
RT-11.
I was wondering if anyone on the list had one of these machines and knew
what parts made the hardware a Gamma-11, as well if anyone had manuals
online that they might share, as well as potentially the software for
the unit. There's not really much that I can see on Bitsavers, but I
might not have looked hard enough; I found the VSV11 and VT11 option
manuals, but that seemed to be about it.
Cheers,
Phil
6264
days inactive
6267
days old
18 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bshannon＠tiac.net -
jrr＠flippers.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
pcw＠mesanet.com -
philippe＠cowpig.ca -
shoppa_classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
starbase89＠gmail.com -
tponsford＠rnsmte.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com