15 May
2005
15 May
'05
9:12 a.m.
9000 VAX wrote:
He might have bid $500 more, but he needed to pay only $2 more than your bid.
true. it's wasn't the $2 that irked me. it was coming in 5 seconds
before the end of the auction.
I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again.
-brad
15 May
15 May
9:24 a.m.
I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able
to big again.
In "theory", you're supposed to put in your absolute maximum the first
time.
So why would you WANT to bid again if you've already put in your highest
bid?
Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you think is
your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain says "well, if I
could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be willing to pay that".
11:21 a.m.
On Sun, 15 May 2005 09:24:18 -0400
"Bob Lafleur" <bob_lafleur at technologist.com> wrote:
People who go into eBay with the mindset of a traditional auction get
frustrated with the sniping phenomenon. You have to bid your highest
amount up front. Wether 'up front' is 2 days or two seconds before the
close of the auction is immaterial. That's just how it works. I prefer
'real' auctions where you can camp on an item, watch the price climb and
can make at-the-second decisions how high to go. But that isn't eBay.
And eBay isn't better or worse than it, just different.
I don't
mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again.
In "theory", you're supposed to put in your absolute maximum the first
time. So why would you WANT to bid again if you've already put in your
highest bid?
Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you
think is your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain
says "well, if I could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be
willing to pay that".
3:38 p.m.
Scott Stevens wrote:
People who go into eBay with the mindset of a
traditional auction get
frustrated with the sniping phenomenon. You have to bid your highest
amount up front. Wether 'up front' is 2 days or two seconds before the
close of the auction is immaterial.
I guess I don't see it that way. What you said is factually correct,
but I've noticed that when I am bidding against other hobbiests (mostly
people on this list), they don't snipe each other.
In my twisted little world I sort of felt there was a gentlemanly
agreement not to snipe each other.
personally I would concider it bad mojo to snipe against another list
member. am I a fool?
(ok, don't answer that :-)
in auto racing people who play dirty often find themselves up the creek
without a friend, just when they need one...
-brad
3:55 p.m.
Brad Parker wrote:
In my twisted little world I sort of felt there was a
gentlemanly agreement not to snipe each other.
personally I would concider it bad mojo to snipe against
another list member. am I a fool?
I don't think I'd ever deliberately bid against another
list member (or anyone else I know - I've held off
bidding on auctions where the current high bidder is
someone who's previously bought from me!). But if I
happen to set up a sniping tool to bid on something
it's because I don't want the hassle of following
the auction myself. In that case you'll not only
be bid against, but find it was done with a snipe!
FWIW I lose more than I win with tools - because
others obviously value stuff more than I do (or
are not willing to play the long game and try
again when the next one comes up). So really
everyone still has an equal chance - open with
a low bid to declare interest and then load
up the sniping tool with your maximum bid.
Just like a real auction but without the emotion :-)
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org
6:03 p.m.
On Sun, 15 May 2005, Antonio Carlini wrote:
Brad Parker wrote:
Sniping tools are the natural answer to sniping. You program your bid and
let the machine do the work for you. There's no emotion involved, and if
you win you end up paying no more than what you were willing to. The
added advantage is that you don't have to be around when the auction ends
(i.e. in the middle of your bedtime).
If everyone simply used sniping tools then the world of eBay would be a
better place.
I suggest StealthBid.com.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
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In my twisted little world I sort of felt there
was a
gentlemanly agreement not to snipe each other.
personally I would concider it bad mojo to snipe against
another list member. am I a fool?
I don't think I'd ever deliberately bid against another
list member (or anyone else I know - I've held off
bidding on auctions where the current high bidder is
someone who's previously bought from me!). But if I
happen to set up a sniping tool to bid on something
it's because I don't want the hassle of following
the auction myself. In that case you'll not only
be bid against, but find it was done with a snipe!
FWIW I lose more than I win with tools - because
others obviously value stuff more than I do (or
are not willing to play the long game and try
again when the next one comes up). So really
everyone still has an equal chance - open with
a low bid to declare interest and then load
up the sniping tool with your maximum bid. 
4:25 p.m.
From: "Brad Parker" <brad at heeltoe.com>
Scott Stevens wrote:
I guess I don't see it that way. What you said is factually correct,
but I've noticed that when I am bidding against other hobbiests (mostly
people on this list), they don't snipe each other.
In my twisted little world I sort of felt there was a gentlemanly
agreement not to snipe each other.
personally I would concider it bad mojo to snipe against another list
member. am I a fool?
My feeling is that, if I have a genuine need for an item, I will go for it,
unless I know it is against someone else with a greater need. If I am just
collecting stuff against a rainy day, I will assume that whoever bid on it
actually needs it, and not bid against them.
Most of my bidding these days is rainy day stuff, or stuff I don't want to
see scrapped. (So I bid the minimum, with a snipe.)
Items I still need, I will usually bid once early in the auction (in case
anyone wants to honor my "dibs"), then enter a snipe for the actual amount I
am willing to pay. (Others seem to be using the same system.)
The rules are set up so that all the action will be in the last minute.
There's no way a user sitting at a workstation can follow the action in the
last 30 seconds, so skip the stress-out. You can bid early (which tips your
hand), or download the sniping software. I like the sniping software,
because you can enter your bid, then forget about it until the auction is
over.
Vince
16 May
16 May
2:48 a.m.
Hi,
"vrs" said:
Items I still need, I will usually bid once early in
the auction (in case
anyone wants to honor my "dibs"), then enter a snipe for the actual amount I
am willing to pay. (Others seem to be using the same system.)
The rules are set up so that all the action will be in the last minute.
There's no way a user sitting at a workstation can follow the action in the
last 30 seconds, so skip the stress-out. You can bid early (which tips your
hand), or download the sniping software. I like the sniping software,
because you can enter your bid, then forget about it until the auction is
over.
So the auction becomes, in effect, a sealed bid tender.
(I've bought things from the government that way.)
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
2:57 p.m.
From: "Stan Barr" <stanb at dial.pipex.com>
"vrs" said:
> Items I still need, I will usually bid once early in the auction (in
case
> anyone wants to honor my "dibs"), then
enter a snipe for the actual
amount I
> am willing to pay. (Others seem to be using the
same system.)
...
So the auction becomes, in effect, a sealed bid
tender.
(I've bought things from the government that way.)
Very similar, except that I will generally end up paying a bid increment
over the second highest bid, which is likely to be less than the full amount
that I bid.
Vince
15 May
15 May
3:40 p.m.
On 5/15/05, Scott Stevens <chenmel at earthlink.net> wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2005 09:24:18 -0400
"Bob Lafleur" <bob_lafleur at technologist.com> wrote:
People who go into eBay with the mindset of a traditional auction get
frustrated with the sniping phenomenon. You have to bid your highest
amount up front. Wether 'up front' is 2 days or two seconds before the
close of the auction is immaterial. That's just how it works. I prefer
'real' auctions where you can camp on an item, watch the price climb and
can make at-the-second decisions how high to go. But that isn't eBay.
And eBay isn't better or worse than it, just different.
And that is Ubid.com. I know that people are mad about their system:
an automatic extension of 1 hour after the last bid.
vax, 9000
I
don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again.
In "theory", you're supposed to put in your absolute maximum the first
time. So why would you WANT to bid again if you've already put in your
highest bid?
Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you
think is your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain
says "well, if I could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be
willing to pay that".
6:01 p.m.
On Sun, 15 May 2005, 9000 VAX wrote:
And that is Ubid.com. I know that people are mad about
their system:
an automatic extension of 1 hour after the last bid.
This is what the VCM does. Plain and simple, it makes sniping
ineffective.
Sniping only benefits the seller.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
5:52 p.m.
On Sun, 15 May 2005, Bob Lafleur wrote:
Right. This is exactly what I used to say ad nauseum. It is the very
reason sniping is still around. It helps eBay in that it uses human
psychology in their favor (oh, and by the way, the side effect is that it
results in INFLATED PRICES).
(I don't want any arguments. It's a fact. Go do something useful instead
of replying to this message ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
I don't
mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again.
In "theory", you're supposed to put in your absolute maximum the first
time.
So why would you WANT to bid again if you've already put in your highest
bid?
Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you think
is
your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain says "well, if I
could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be willing to pay that".
6:51 p.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
> Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes
against human nature. What you think
is
> your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that
your brain says "well,
if I
> could get it for just a little more, I guess
I'd be willing to pay
that".
Right. This is exactly what I used to say ad nauseum. It is the very
reason sniping is still around. It helps eBay in that it uses human
psychology in their favor (oh, and by the way, the side effect is that it
results in INFLATED PRICES).
I see this as replacing an orderly competition to determine who is willing
to pay the most with a last second scramble in which some number of bidders
get cut off by the auction deadline. So I don't see how it drive prices up.
Seems like whoever got cut off lost their chance to drive the price up.
Since I enter snipes days ahead of time (and assume most others do too), I
think the emotionalism that drives the prices up is largely defeated. If
the minority who are hand-entering their last-second bids had enough time to
bid effectively, *that* would drive prices up.
(I don't want any arguments. It's a fact. Go
do something useful instead
of replying to this message ;)
Like *that* was going to happen :-)!
Vince
9:43 p.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:51:04 -0700
"vrs" <vrs at msn.com> wrote:
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at
siconic.com>
If ebay wanted to take advantage of the sniping phenomenon correctly,
they would figure out a mechanism to bring it into their system, or
engineer the rules to eliminate it, i.e. the one-hour-after-last-bid
extension method. Though I can see real frustration if people 'game'
that to make things close long, long after the scheduled ending, too.
It's been ages since I 'rode out' a close to the end in real-time.
Third-party sniping systems have essentially replaced 'real-time'
bidding on highly contested items, in my opinion. I place my high bid,
either with a proxy service or program, or directly with eBay, and walk
away.
I attend a LOT of local auctions, where one gets to know everybody quite
closely, and where there is a lot of social protocol that keeps rudeness
at bay. There are regulars here, obviously, but let's be honest, the
names/identities don't automatically translate to 'the ring' at eBay the
same way. Would be okay if it did.
Another point- awhile back in this very forum people were talking about
protocol for auctions. The ethics of bidder-collusion, etc. Some
people could interpret a 'close community, agree not to bid against each
other, cooperative community' spirit as unethical bidder-collusion.
Isn't that wrong, too?
-Scott
> Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory"
goes against human nature. What you
> think
is
> your maximum bid, when someone else outbids
that your brain says
> "well,
if I
> could get it for just a little more, I guess
I'd be willing to pay
that".
Right. This is exactly what I used to say ad nauseum. It is the
very reason sniping is still around. It helps eBay in that it uses
human psychology in their favor (oh, and by the way, the side effect
is that it results in INFLATED PRICES).
I see this as replacing an orderly competition to determine who is
willing to pay the most with a last second scramble in which some
number of bidders get cut off by the auction deadline. So I don't see
how it drive prices up. Seems like whoever got cut off lost their
chance to drive the price up.
Since I enter snipes days ahead of time (and assume most others do
too), I think the emotionalism that drives the prices up is largely
defeated. If the minority who are hand-entering their last-second
bids had enough time to bid effectively, *that* would drive prices up.
10:23 p.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
From: "Scott Stevens" <chenmel at earthlink.net>
Another point- awhile back in this very forum people
were talking about
protocol for auctions. The ethics of bidder-collusion, etc. Some
people could interpret a 'close community, agree not to bid against each
other, cooperative community' spirit as unethical bidder-collusion.
Isn't that wrong, too?
For myself, I draw the line at describing my own behavior. I think it is
treading too close to the line to try to influence the bidding of others, so
I never ask others not to bid. I think if there were a "social norm" not to
bid, that would have dubious ethics too.
Of course, many list members were in vocal disagreement with me about the
issues last time they came up :-).
Vince
10:25 p.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
On Sun, 2005-05-15 at 20:43 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote:
Another point- awhile back in this very forum people were talking about
protocol for auctions. The ethics of bidder-collusion, etc. Some
people could interpret a 'close community, agree not to bid against each
other, cooperative community' spirit as unethical bidder-collusion.
Isn't that wrong, too?
My opinion is right vs. wrong is irrelevant as long as you follow ebay's
stated rules.
I've heard of no rules re: collusion to not bid against each other...
Other than the law and Ebay's rules, only the law of the jungle holds
sway.
-- John.
16 May
16 May
2:56 a.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
Hi,
Scott Stevens said:
Some
people could interpret a 'close community, agree not to bid against each
other, cooperative community' spirit as unethical bidder-collusion.
Isn't that wrong, too?
I think someone has already pointed out that it is illegal in the UK.
You could go to jail for it :-)
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
6:05 p.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
Scott Stevens wrote:
It's been ages since I 'rode out' a close
to the end in real-time.
Third-party sniping systems have essentially replaced 'real-time'
bidding on highly contested items, in my opinion. I place my high bid,
either with a proxy service or program, or directly with eBay, and walk
away.
Bingo. Avoiding the emotional issues is the primary reason I always snipe
auctions. A secondary reason, however, is because at one time (probably can
still do this) it was possible to search what a particular user was bidding on.
Some friends and acquaintences of mine were outbidding me on items they
didn't know were up for bid until they saw what I was bidding on! Sniping
eliminates this.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
6:11 p.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
On 5/16/05, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote:
Some friends and acquaintences of mine were
outbidding me on items they
didn't know were up for bid until they saw what I was bidding on! Sniping
eliminates this.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org)
That's friendly behavior? I actually mark auctions with an early (low)
bid so friends know I'm sniping it. If they are friendly they will
avoid it or tell me they want it more than me.
-- John.
17 May
17 May
12:22 a.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
John Hogerhuis wrote:
That's friendly behavior? I actually mark auctions
with an early (low)
bid so friends know I'm sniping it. If they are friendly they will
avoid it or tell me they want it more than me.
Sure... I know a lot of my software collecting friends are obsessively
competitive, so I recognize it and take it with a grain of salt. I'd rather be
friends with them than get pissed over an auction I didn't win. In any case,
it's moot; I snipe too, and now we're all on the same playing field.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
12:47 a.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
It was written...
> That's friendly behavior? I actually mark
auctions with an early (low)
> bid so friends know I'm sniping it. If they are friendly they will
> avoid it or tell me they want it more than me.
I've gotten egg on my face... twice... about that. I find an item I want, I
set up a snipe bid and walk away. That's the nice part of the automated
snipe services, I can forget about it and wait till the "you've won" or
"you've lost" email hits my mailbox. I don't go back and constantly
watch
it.
A couple of times, a friend emailed me "hey, why did you snipe it from
me?"... the truth is, I didn't even know he was bidding - he wasn't bidding
when I set the snipe bid. :\ Guess I should try to remember to mark them
with a low bid.
Jay West
2:06 a.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
On 5/16/05, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
A couple of times, a friend emailed me "hey, why
did you snipe it from
me?"... the truth is, I didn't even know he was bidding
Exactly. By marking the item my friends that know my ID know I'm
there. I suppose if someone were very interested they could just
search for my ID, but it seems like most auctions I bid on are easily
found with a simple search. So if they were doing that, it would mean
they just don't like me, and I haven't made any real enemies yet
AFAIK.
2:03 a.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
On 5/16/05, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote:
John Hogerhuis wrote:
Thankfully my friends are smart and cheapskates and the things we
mutually want are not all that rare..
So they see the logic in avoiding competing against each other for no
good reason other than to run up the seller's take.
I suppose if the things were rare enough we'd all go stealth and snipe
without marking the auctions with a low bid.
That's friendly behavior? I actually mark
auctions with an early (low)
bid so friends know I'm sniping it. If they are friendly they will
avoid it or tell me they want it more than me.
Sure... I know a lot of my software collecting friends are obsessively
competitive, so I recognize it and take it with a grain of salt. I'd rather be
friends with them than get pissed over an auction I didn't win. In any case,
it's moot; I snipe too, and now we're all on the same playing field.
--
16 May
16 May
6:34 p.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote:
Some friends and acquaintences of mine were
outbidding me on items they
didn't know were up for bid until they saw what I was bidding on! Sniping
eliminates this.
Gee, some "friends".
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
18 May
18 May
6:03 p.m.
New subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90)
Some info about sniping, from an eBay employee...
If ebay wanted to take advantage of the sniping
phenomenon correctly,
they would figure out a mechanism to bring it into their system, or
...
Yes, they could. I was told (about 3 years ago) that they developed
the code to do it, but never enabled it.
Last week, an eBay employee told me something about such
anti-sniping proposals: they put eBay closer to the auctioneer
position, which they DO NOT want to be in. (There are rules/laws
governing auctioneers, apparently, which they don't fit.)
His claim was that by auto-extending an auction, it becomes the
kind of auction subject to those rules. By simply having a
hard cutoff based on the clock, they're avoiding that problem.
It sounded plausible.
Stan
--
Stan Sieler
sieler at allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html
15 May
15 May
5:50 p.m.
On Sun, 15 May 2005, Brad Parker wrote:
9000 VAX wrote:
Look, this is eBay we're talking about. This is nothing new.
Try the VCM if you don't like sniping. And encourage sellers who have
stuff you like to use it instead of eBay. Then you have a much better
marketplace.
If sniping was bad for eBay they would have made it irrelevant a long time
ago.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
He might have bid $500 more, but he needed to pay only $2 more than your bid.
true. it's wasn't the $2 that irked me. it was coming in 5 seconds
before the end of the auction.
I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again.
7006
days inactive
7009
days old
25 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
bob_lafleur＠technologist.com -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
jhoger＠gmail.com -
jhoger＠pobox.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
sieler＠allegro.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
trixter＠oldskool.org -
vax9000＠gmail.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
vrs＠msn.com