19 Dec
2000
19 Dec
'00
10:24 a.m.
On December 19, Jim Arnott wrote:
Snipe software??? Available for a Mac? If so, where?
Uhh, ftp.netscape.com?
The only thing one needs for effective sniping is a web browser,
good connectivity, and perhaps an alarm clock.
Some tips, from one of the most effective snipers I know (ME!):
- Use the "sign in" feature...saves keystrokes when bidding.
- Use two windows side-by-side: one on the main auction page,
keep hitting "reload" to watch the countdown; one with a
pre-prepared bid ready to hit "place bid". Scroll this one
up a lot to minimize mouse movement distance to hit the button.
- If you think another sniper is watching, it doesn't hurt to have
another pre-prepared bid window ready to hit "place bid" but with
a higher amount. Keep it iconified and out of the way, but
keep it accessible.
- Bid odd amounts...not $150.00, but $156.56. Shift to the high side
of ones or cents. Often people will bid even amounts like
$150.00 or slightly higher like $150.01.
- Keep a running idea of network lag between you & eBay as you hit
"reload" on your main auction page watching the countdown. Use
this information when placing your bid.
- The faster your connectivity (actually its more the latency that
counts, but faster connectivity usually means lower-latency
connectivity) the better off you are. I usually shoot for the
last 3-4 seconds of the auction.
- Know the "deep pockets" bidders. People like "at90210",
"dimethyl", and "shirotori"...these folks have more money than
all of us put together, and have no qualms with spending it
to keep you from getting what you want if you piss them off.
Don't snipe the big spenders, or you'll never win an auction
again. It's as simple as that.
- Know who your friends are. If you find yourself constantly
coming up against the same person on stuff, send him or her
some email. Get to know the other person. Try to form some
sort of working relationship that facilitates communication
on a per-auction basis. Decide amongst yourselves who wants
or needs the item more. Concede once in a while. It's better
to have friends than enemies...and sometimes those friends
spot things that you may have missed.
Is sniping morally wrong? I dunno, ask a priest. Is it rude?
Definitely. But there are SO many people who do it, screw it. If you
snipe someone and can't live with yourself afterwards, then don't
snipe anymore. But if you're sick of BEING sniped, or of simply not
winning the auctions that you want to win, then go for it. It's a
cold, cruel world out there.
-Dave McGuire
19 Dec
19 Dec
10:26 a.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Dave McGuire wrote:
- Bid odd amounts...not $150.00, but $156.56.
Shift to the high side
of ones or cents. Often people will bid even amounts like
$150.00 or slightly higher like $150.01.
Just bid $1 million. You'll be guaranteed to get it everytime.
- Know the "deep pockets" bidders.
People like "at90210",
"dimethyl", and "shirotori"...these folks have more money than
all of us put together, and have no qualms with spending it
to keep you from getting what you want if you piss them off.
Don't snipe the big spenders, or you'll never win an auction
again. It's as simple as that.
Wow, eBay mafioso.
- Know who your friends are. If you find yourself
constantly
coming up against the same person on stuff, send him or her
some email. Get to know the other person. Try to form some
sort of working relationship that facilitates communication
on a per-auction basis. Decide amongst yourselves who wants
or needs the item more. Concede once in a while. It's better
to have friends than enemies...and sometimes those friends
spot things that you may have missed.
Not that I plan to turn you in (as long as you send me $100 within the
next 2 weeks, e-mail me for my address :) but this practice is actually
illegal.
Is sniping morally wrong? I dunno, ask a priest.
Is it rude?
Definitely. But there are SO many people who do it, screw it. If you
snipe someone and can't live with yourself afterwards, then don't
snipe anymore. But if you're sick of BEING sniped, or of simply not
winning the auctions that you want to win, then go for it. It's a
cold, cruel world out there.
Unfortunately, eBay's retarded auction mechanism promotes the use of
sniping. As I've argued before, it encourages over-bidding.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
11:23 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Snipe S/W?
It's also very unlike a live auction. Most auctioneers hate people who
snipe, because a sniper doesn't take place in the bidding war that leads to
higher prices. At most auctions, you'll find that the auctioneer and
his/her staff will "fail to notice" bids from persistent snipers unless
they have participated in the earlier bidding. eBay could create an
analogue of this by limiting bidding in the last 30 minutes of an auction
to people who bid before the 30 minute mark. At least then the bidders
could "size up" their competition and bid accordingly, as you would at a
live auction.
Cheers,
Mark Gregory
Is sniping
morally wrong? I dunno, ask a priest. Is it rude?
Definitely. But there are SO many people who do it, screw it. If you
snipe someone and can't live with yourself afterwards, then don't
snipe anymore. But if you're sick of BEING sniped, or of simply not
winning the auctions that you want to win, then go for it. It's a
cold, cruel world out there.
Unfortunately, eBay's retarded auction mechanism promotes the use of
sniping. As I've argued before, it encourages over-bidding.
12:10 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Mark Gregory wrote:
It's also very unlike a live auction. Most
auctioneers hate people who
snipe, because a sniper doesn't take place in the bidding war that leads to
higher prices. At most auctions, you'll find that the auctioneer and
his/her staff will "fail to notice" bids from persistent snipers unless
they have participated in the earlier bidding. eBay could create an
analogue of this by limiting bidding in the last 30 minutes of an auction
to people who bid before the 30 minute mark. At least then the bidders
could "size up" their competition and bid accordingly, as you would at a
live auction.
Or do like I did for the Apple-1 auction at VCF 4.0: keep extending the
auction for fifteen more minutes after each new bid came in within 15
minutes of the planned closing time. The bidding actually went on another
50 minutes or so before no more bids came in.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
2:48 p.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
Or do like I did for the Apple-1 auction at VCF 4.0:
keep extending the
auction for fifteen more minutes after each new bid came in within 15
minutes of the planned closing time. The bidding actually went on another
50 minutes or so before no more bids came in.
Excellent idea. On-line it could be a shorter period, like 5 minutes, but it would
let the price develop to its full potential.
2:19 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, John Tinker wrote:
Well, it actually was an online auction. All the bids were taken over the
net using the website auction mechanism I set up. Nnobody called in a
bid.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Or do like I
did for the Apple-1 auction at VCF 4.0: keep extending the
auction for fifteen more minutes after each new bid came in within 15
minutes of the planned closing time. The bidding actually went on another
50 minutes or so before no more bids came in.
Excellent idea. On-line it could be a shorter period, like 5 minutes,
but it would let the price develop to its full potential. 
5 p.m.
John Tinker wrote:
Sellam Ismail wrote:
Not an excellent idea as it caters to those people that can be online when
the auction closes and discriminates against those that can't.
Or do like I did for the Apple-1 auction at VCF
4.0: keep extending the
auction for fifteen more minutes after each new bid came in within 15
minutes of the planned closing time. The bidding actually went on another
50 minutes or so before no more bids came in.
Excellent idea. On-line it could be a shorter period, like 5 minutes, but it would
let the price develop to its full potential.
4:12 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Marvin wrote:
Not an excellent idea as it caters to those people
that can be online when
the auction closes and discriminates against those that can't.
Four syllables: software agents.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
6:57 p.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Marvin wrote:
I agree with this, but as Sellum pointed out before there is a solution
and that's the time extension. Make a last millisecond bid and it gets
extended x minutes. Snipe software could still be used (as a software
agent) but it wouldn't allow for the last split second frantic bidding.
Technically ebay does have an option to post your max bid but there are
ways to abuse that (which I don't do).
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
Not an excellent idea as it caters to those
people that can be online when
the auction closes and discriminates against those that can't.
Four syllables: software agents. 
8:07 p.m.
After having been burned by snipers many, many times, I decided to just put
my max bid in at the beginning. I may not win but my conscience is clean
(where that's concerned) and it's saved me from spending more than I could
or should. I spent a lot of time watching auctions, and getting caught up in
the last minute bidding, only to be out bid at the last second. Sometimes, I
was actually happy that the bid sniper was there because I had bid more than
I could afford or feel good about -but usually, I felt like scattering their
teeth like chicklets.
I have a very low opinion of bid snipers. They're like the proverbial "bad
apples" that spoil it for everyone. I believe that most new bidders on ebay
go into it with honest intentions but they (like me) learn quickly that a
last second bid sniper will likely ruin the joy for them. Bid sniping is a
rotten, and self-perpetuating way of buying things on ebay. You learn the
hard way that if you really want something, you snipe. Don't even bother
placing a bid before the last 30 seconds of the auction because your early
(honest) bid will likely be sniped, and if you can't snipe, why even bother
to bid. This isn't always the case, especially on common items but it
happens often enough that I consider it the norm on items that I bid on, and
I think that this is really a disservice that ebay provides, and seems to
encourage. Perhaps ebay should only allow item bids during the last 30
seconds of the auction. At least then everyone would have an equal chance to
win the auction, and they would have to place their honest maximum bid
because they would only get one shot at biding.
However, I do like the "Buy it Now" option that a lot of sellers seem to be
including. It has it's faults too but at least it's clear about what it's
for, compared to the normal ebay auction which is designed to be abused by
sniping.
Another possible way to avoid sniping is to allow auctions to end at random
times, once it gets to the last hour of the auction. Will it end with 45
minutes to go, or with 35 seconds? You don't know, so you place your max bid
and hope for the best. Even ebay would come out ahead with this option, and
nice people wouldn't get burned by the more base elements of the auction
world.
Ernest
8:52 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Ernest wrote:
Sometimes, I was actually happy that the bid sniper
was there because
I had bid more than I could afford or feel good about -but usually, I
felt like scattering their
Thank you. Exactly--EXACTLY--my point about how eBay's auction format
encourages over-bidding.
I have a very low opinion of bid snipers. They're
like the proverbial "bad
apples" that spoil it for everyone. I believe that most new bidders on ebay
go into it with honest intentions but they (like me) learn quickly that a
last second bid sniper will likely ruin the joy for them. Bid sniping is a
rotten, and self-perpetuating way of buying things on ebay. You learn the
Hey, nobody is doing anything here that isn't within the rules of the
system. Nobody, to my knowledge, has hacked eBay in a way that enables
them to have an advantage over other bidders. Snipers are working within
in the rules of the eBay auction mechanism. Don't blame the snipers.
Blame the eBay auction mechanism. It's lame.
However, I do like the "Buy it Now" option
that a lot of sellers seem to be
including. It has it's faults too but at least it's clear about what it's
for, compared to the normal ebay auction which is designed to be abused by
sniping.
This is probably one of the best things eBay as added to their auction
mechanism. A chance to just pay what the seller really wants for it and
be done with it. No sniping, no worrying about being overbid.
eBay alternative:
http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=001
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
20 Dec
20 Dec
3:50 a.m.
However, I do
like the "Buy it Now" option that a lot of sellers seem to be
including. It has it's faults too but at least it's clear about what it's
for, compared to the normal ebay auction which is designed to be abused by
sniping.
This is probably one of the best things eBay as added to their auction
mechanism. A chance to just pay what the seller really wants for it and
be done with it. No sniping, no worrying about being overbid. 
19 Dec
19 Dec
10:59 p.m.
I think I actually have a good idea, RE sniping, allow people to submit
sealed bids, ideally visible only to the seller and perhaps then only as
"bids" not amounts.
5:22 p.m.
On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 08:00:01PM -0800, Marvin (marvin(a)rain.org) wrote:
John Tinker wrote:
Well, eBay caters thus now, though. It'd just be catering to *all* the
people that can be online when it closes, and not the guy who gets in
the last click before the buzzer. It'd work well for high-ticket
items, I think, but not commodities. After all, what you said above
applied to auctions based on meatware would cause much raising of
eyebrows and quiet "tsk, tsk"-ing from the auctioneers. :-)
-Rich
--
------------------------------ Rich Lafferty ---------------------------
Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services
Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625
------------------------- rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca ----------------------
Sellam Ismail wrote:
Not an excellent idea as it caters to those people that can be online when
the auction closes and discriminates against those that can't. Or do like I did for the Apple-1 auction at VCF
4.0: keep
extending the auction for fifteen more minutes after each new
bid came in within 15 minutes of the planned closing time. The
bidding actually went on another 50 minutes or so before no more
bids came in.
Excellent idea. On-line it could be a shorter period, like 5
minutes, but it would let the price develop to its full potential.
5:48 p.m.
Marvin wrote:
You mean discriminate against people with jobs? Or that is to say, discriminate against
people who are actually doing their jobs, instead of surfing the web? Hey, you aready
get paychecks and stuff like that. Seriously, though, wouldn't sniper style software
take care of all of that? The end result would be that you would have to determine what
your maximum bid is, one way or the other. On the other hand, I suppose putting in your
maximum bid is the ultimate defense against sniping anyway, and it is aready available,
even as things are now. When I've already put in my best bid, then I don't mind
losing
something.
-- John Tinker
Excellent
idea. On-line it could be a shorter period, like 5 minutes, but it would
let the price develop to its full potential.
Not an excellent idea as it caters to those people that can be online when
the auction closes and discriminates against those that can't.
6:02 p.m.
John Tinker wrote:
On the other hand, I suppose putting in your maximum bid is the
ultimate defense against sniping anyway, and it is aready available,
even as things are now. When I've already put in my best bid, then I
don't mind losing something.
I sure agree with bidding your maximum, and then who cares if someone else
wins with the caveat that your maximum bid should be made as late in the
auction as possible.
<philosophical discussion mode on>
HOWEVER, this whole discussion seems to rest on the questionable statement
that everyone bidding knows what a given item is "worth" (excluding the
obvious/trite argument that something is worth what someone is willing to
pay.) As a simple example, look at what the Jan/Feb 1975 issues of Popular
Electronics are bringing now (about $80) as opposed to a year or so ago
(about $300) when they were considered *rare*. Are the people who bought a
year ago more (or less) "right" than those that bought today?
<philosophical discussion mode off>
6:32 p.m.
<philosophical discussion mode on>
HOWEVER, this whole discussion seems to rest on the questionable statement
that everyone bidding knows what a given item is "worth" (excluding the
obvious/trite argument that something is worth what someone is willing to
pay.) As a simple example, look at what the Jan/Feb 1975 issues of Popular
Electronics are bringing now (about $80) as opposed to a year or so ago
(about $300) when they were considered *rare*. Are the people who bought a
year ago more (or less) "right" than those that bought today?
<philosophical discussion mode off>
Yeah, but book sales at Libarys are waaaay up because of this. :-)
6:46 p.m.
Marvin wrote:
HOWEVER, this whole discussion seems to rest on the
questionable statement
that everyone bidding knows what a given item is "worth" (excluding the
obvious/trite argument that something is worth what someone is willing to
pay.)
The one truth I can give (from my limited experience) is that everything
is worth just a few dollars more than I have/am willing to spend without
making those nasty bills wait another month.
--
Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison(a)timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/
20 Dec
20 Dec
12:21 a.m.
The one truth I can give (from my limited experience)
is that everything
is worth just a few dollars more than I have/am willing to spend without
making those nasty bills wait another month.
Sell a few items and use PayPal, once you have a balance just limit your
purchases to whats in the Paypal account. Generally I am still my "frugal"
self, but if it fits in my PayPal funds I don't often deny myself much of
anything anymore.
3:56 a.m.
Mike Ford wrote:
Sell a few items and use PayPal, once you have a
balance just limit your
purchases to whats in the Paypal account. Generally I am still my "frugal"
self, but if it fits in my PayPal funds I don't often deny myself much of
anything anymore.
I try to avoid PayPal. As much as I think the concept is cool, it still
makes me nervous. That, and my wife is dead set against paying for
things online, unless it's through the credit card, so she can dispute
it, in the event of something going terribly awry.
And I couldn't sell anything anyway. Too much of a packrat. Even
though I don't use Windows, I have a bucket of winmodems. I'm kinda sad
that way. I even have a problem throwing out dead hardware. I keep
thinking to myself "you know, what if I was wrong, and this 386
motherboard isn't *really* toast... I could build..."
--
Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison(a)timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/
4:10 a.m.
At 09:56 AM 12/20/00 -0500, Tim Harrison wrote:
And I couldn't sell anything anyway. Too much of a
packrat. Even
though I don't use Windows, I have a bucket of winmodems. I'm kinda sad
that way. I even have a problem throwing out dead hardware. I keep
thinking to myself "you know, what if I was wrong, and this 386
motherboard isn't *really* toast... I could build..."
Sellam - enough of this VCF stuff and the hand-modeling for
nerd documentaries. Start a packrat support group, and you'll
be on Oprah before you know it.
- John
5:34 a.m.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, John Foust wrote:
Sellam - enough of this VCF stuff and the
hand-modeling for nerd
documentaries. Start a packrat support group, and you'll be on Oprah
before you know it.
I actually did address this in several interviews I did. I don't know if
it made an impact on anyone else but I did manage to curb my own unbridled
yearning to acquire old computer stuff to the detriment of my finances and
my living space :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
19 Dec
19 Dec
8:32 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Marvin wrote:
HOWEVER, this whole discussion seems to rest on the
questionable statement
that everyone bidding knows what a given item is "worth" (excluding the
obvious/trite argument that something is worth what someone is willing to
pay.)
Trite? Hardly. It's the one true definition of fair value. How dare
you :)
As a simple example, look at what the Jan/Feb 1975
issues of Popular
Electronics are bringing now (about $80) as opposed to a year or so ago
(about $300) when they were considered *rare*. Are the people who bought a
year ago more (or less) "right" than those that bought today?
<philosophical discussion mode off>
There's a simple explanation for all this: people are lame. They'll pay
excessive amounts of money for objects that they deem to be precious.
Then those items will cease to be precious at some point, people will be
willing to pay less, and we will laugh at them.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
20 Dec
20 Dec
3:06 p.m.
At 07:48 PM 12/19/00 -0600, you wrote:
it would
Or do like I
did for the Apple-1 auction at VCF 4.0: keep extending the
auction for fifteen more minutes after each new bid came in within 15
minutes of the planned closing time. The bidding actually went on another
50 minutes or so before no more bids came in.
Excellent idea. On-line it could be a shorter period, like 5 minutes, but let the price develop to its full potential.
Let's face it, at any auction, especially eBay where the bidding goes on
for rediculous periods like 9 days, there will never be a method that is
agreeable to both those selling the item, who want the most money it can
possibly bring, and for those buying, who would like to spend as little as
need-be. Personally, I snipe because I think bidding early does nothing
but drive prices up to totally outrageous levels. This fact is commented
on by members of this list almost constantly in the jokes made about the
auctions there. Likely, whatever action one takes to curb either the
inflated prices or sniping would be unacceptable to the other side, so it's
doubtful a mutually agreeable system will be found. That's not even
factoring in those with too much time and money on their hands where
neither is an object when they decide they want a particular item. Just my
2 bits.
Jeff
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ
2:39 p.m.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote:
Let's face it, at any auction, especially eBay
where the bidding
goes on for rediculous periods like 9 days, there will never be a
method that is agreeable to both those selling the item, who want the
most money it can possibly bring, and for those buying, who would like
to spend as little as need-be. Personally, I snipe because I think
bidding early does nothing but drive prices up to totally outrageous
levels. This fact is commented on by members of this list almost
constantly in the jokes made about the auctions there. Likely,
whatever action one takes to curb either the inflated prices or
sniping would be unacceptable to the other side, so it's doubtful a
mutually agreeable system will be found. That's not even factoring in
those with too much time and money on their hands where neither is an
object when they decide they want a particular item. Just my 2 bits.
This argument assumes that the eBay method of auctions has been around
forever, which it has not. eBay's auction format is something completely
new, and is completely biased towards the seller. I think they just
happened to find this out by accident, and have kept it this way because
it keeps the sellers happy, and the sellers are the ones that make eBay
rich, so they are certainly not going to change things.
An auction format that is sensible is the "going once, twice, sold" method
which was used in newsgroups before online auctions came to be. It allows
fair bidding, results in a fair price (for both buyer and seller), and so
overall is fair for both buyers and sellers. Each party wins.
The method I used, and that I want eBay to implement (but I know they
never will) is to extend the auction deadline as each new bid comes in
within X minutes of the deadline. This is fair and avoids the inflated
prices that eBay promotes. But of course, eBay WANTS inflated prices.
It's better for their bottom line, and they know it.
Folks have just become accustomed to eBay's way of doing things and have
never questioned it. In a sensible auction proceeding, sniping should not
be possible, or even relevant.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
4:01 p.m.
On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 05:39:36PM -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote:
The method I used, and that I want eBay to implement
(but I know they
never will) is to extend the auction deadline as each new bid comes in
within X minutes of the deadline. This is fair and avoids the inflated
prices that eBay promotes. But of course, eBay WANTS inflated prices.
Hmmm, from my observations when OnSale does this, the prices get more
inflated if the auction is extended. People don't know when to quit.
--
_______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud(a)bigfoot.com
(_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd(a)kb7pwd.ampr.org
__) | | \________________________________________________________________
3:22 p.m.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote:
On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 05:39:36PM -0800, Sellam
Ismail wrote:
Stupid people who don't know the real worth of something (as far as being
able to get it much cheaper somewhere else or who bid above retail for
instance) don't know when to quit. It's called being an educated buyer as
opposed to an ignorant one, and regardless of whether it leads to inflated
prices because of idiots, it is still a fair process.
I've seen people at live auctions bid on cars for far more than even their
Blue Book value. But at least you still had a fair opportunity to bid
against this person until their stupidity proportionally outweighed your
wallet.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
The method I used, and that I want eBay to
implement (but I know they
never will) is to extend the auction deadline as each new bid comes in
within X minutes of the deadline. This is fair and avoids the inflated
prices that eBay promotes. But of course, eBay WANTS inflated prices.
Hmmm, from my observations when OnSale does this, the prices get more
inflated if the auction is extended. People don't know when to quit.
5:23 p.m.
At 05:39 PM 12/20/00 -0800, you wrote:
An auction format that is sensible is the "going
once, twice, sold" method
which was used in newsgroups before online auctions came to be. It allows
fair bidding, results in a fair price (for both buyer and seller), and so
overall is fair for both buyers and sellers. Each party wins.
The method I used, and that I want eBay to implement (but I know they
never will) is to extend the auction deadline as each new bid comes in
within X minutes of the deadline. This is fair and avoids the inflated
prices that eBay promotes. But of course, eBay WANTS inflated prices.
It's better for their bottom line, and they know it.
I agree with you totally. I've never been a fan of eBay's format, though
I've participated in thier auctions for a number of years now. In that
time period, whether I agree with it or not, I've found that in order to be
sucessful in winning eBay auctions it is more often than not necessary to
snipe...that or bid far above what I'm willing to pay for a particular
item. There is unlikely to be anything I can do to sway eBay's bias
towards the seller and the price inflation that happens because of it, so I
do what I have to do to make the system work for me without overinflating
the prices. This isn't to say I haven't knowling overpaid for a particular
item when I decide it is worth it to me personally to do so though, because
I have.
BTW, the 'going once, twice, sold' format is still used quite a lot in the
newsgroups that cater to the classic gaming platforms for selling
cartridges and such. It does work quite well.
Jeff
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ
5:35 p.m.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
This argument assumes that the eBay method of auctions
has been around
forever, which it has not. eBay's auction format is something completely
new, and is completely biased towards the seller.
[...]
Unhhh no. Sorry. Unless a 50 year old auction system counts as
'completely new'.
http://www.britannica.com/seo/w/william-vickrey
Excerpts:
Vickrey, William,
b. June 21, 1914, Victoria, B.C., Can.
d. Oct. 11, 1996, Harrison, N.Y., U.S. in full WILLIAM SPENCER VICKREY
Canadian-born American economist who was credited with innovations in
the analysis of the problems of incomplete, or asymmetrical,
information. He shared the 1996 Nobel Prize for Economics with
James A. Mirrlees of Great Britain.
[...]
In naming him for the 1996 Nobel Prize, the selection committee
specifically cited his novel approach to auctioneering (now known
as a Vickrey auction), which, through sealed bidding, awards the
auctioned item to the highest bidder but at the sum bid by the
second-highest bidder. According to Vickrey, in guaranteeing the lower
price, both buyers and sellers benefit from bids that more accurately
reflect the value of the item.
[...]
I think they just
happened to find this out by accident, and have kept it this way because
it keeps the sellers happy, and the sellers are the ones that make eBay
rich, so they are certainly not going to change things.
I have no idea if eBay selected Vickrey's model, or duplicated it by
accident, but AFAICT the only difference between theirs and his is that
with eBay, the winner pays one bid increment above the runner up's bid,
instead of exactly the lower bid.
Vickrey developed his auction method at the request of the USG following
WW II when there were *mountains* of military surplus to be disposed of.
Holding 'outcry' auctions was out of the question because of the volume.
Single round sealed bid auctions were considered to be the best possible
method logistically, but up to that time were known to produce low bids
because each bidder was afraid that if he offered his *best* price he
might miss a bargain. (sound familiar?)
Of course Uncle Sugar wanted the best possible price (taxpayer's money,
and all that).
But it's eBay's business for them to grow or kill. Anyone else is welcome
to start a different kind of web based auction.
Is this O/T, or what?
4:59 p.m.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, William Fulmor wrote:
I have no idea if eBay selected Vickrey's model,
or duplicated it by
accident, but AFAICT the only difference between theirs and his is that
with eBay, the winner pays one bid increment above the runner up's bid,
instead of exactly the lower bid.
Vickrey's is a "sealed bid" auction. eBay's is not. eBay also has a
"reserve" that acts as a trap door if you set your proxy bid above that
level.
AFAIK, eBay originated their particular system. But I think Sellam was
bitching about the "beat the clock" elements of the auction that encourage
sniping. I'm sure eBay didn't invent that aspect, but I don't know who
did (I only know of an earlier online implementation).
Personally, I find sniping inconvenient because to do it well requires
third-party software -- it should be built into the system. But it's just
part of the game. In effect, eBay auctions have a duration of about one
second (and a preview period of a few days).
Cheers,
Doug
5:45 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Fulmor" <wpfulmor(a)dimensional.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: Snipe S/W?
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> This argument assumes that the eBay method of auctions
has been around
> forever, which it has not. eBay's auction
format is
something completely
> new, and is completely biased towards the seller.
[...]
In naming him for the 1996 Nobel Prize, the selection
committee
specifically cited his novel approach to
auctioneering
(now known
as a Vickrey auction), which, through sealed
bidding,
awards the
auctioned item to the highest bidder but at the sum
bid
by the
second-highest bidder. According to Vickrey, in
guaranteeing the lower
price, both buyers and sellers benefit from bids
that
more accurately
reflect the value of the item.
I have no idea if eBay selected Vickrey's model,
or
duplicated it by
accident, but AFAICT the only difference between
theirs
and his is that
with eBay, the winner pays one bid increment above the
runner up's bid,
instead of exactly the lower bid.
The ebay auctions are not sealed, which results in higher
bids, and people placing multiple bids. With a sealed bid
auction no one knows the outcome until the envelopes are
opened and the winning amount read. With the Vickery
auction the high bidder doesn't know the price until all the
bids have been read.
Is this O/T, or what?
yup
6:05 p.m.
On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:35:01PM -0700, William Fulmor (wpfulmor(a)dimensional.com)
wrote:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
A second-bidder auction without sealed bids is not a Vickrey auction.
You can't snipe a Vickrey auction.
This argument assumes that the eBay method of
auctions has been around
forever, which it has not. eBay's auction format is something completely
new, and is completely biased towards the seller.
[...]
Unhhh no. Sorry. Unless a 50 year old auction system counts as
'completely new'.
http://www.britannica.com/seo/w/william-vickrey
I have no idea if eBay selected Vickrey's model, or duplicated it by
accident, but AFAICT the only difference between theirs and his is that
with eBay, the winner pays one bid increment above the runner up's bid,
instead of exactly the lower bid.
They got that part mostly right; the idea of "bid increments" would be
unnecessary in a Vickrey auction for a simple reason. In a Vickrey
auction, the problem of incomplete information is equal for all
bidders, while in an eBay auction, the current winner is on the losing
side of an information imbalance. The simplest example of the
difference I can think of is that you can submit a
high-but-not-too-high bid five days before the close of a Vickrey
auction and win if the other bidders bid less, even if the other
bidders decide after having found out your bid that that price would
have been reasonable (since, after all, someone was offering it). In
an eBay auction, submitting a high-but-not-too-high bid five days
before an auction gives other bidders the opportunity to bid
increasingly higher increments to get an idea of how high your maximum
*is*; at that point, they need only wait until the end to bid over it
so that you don't have *time* to bid higher. *Since* that situation
exists, it becomes rational for *all* participants to hide their
information, meaning that all those bidders that are able to do so
will wait until the last moment to make their bid, at which point the
auction is decided as much by network latency and chance as it is by
matters of value and market forces.
I'm not aware of any non-Web auction procedure which when followed
without prejudice makes it possible for someone to win on the basis of
timing rather than bid.
Is this O/T, or what?
Yeah, but it's given me a great idea for a thesis.
-Rich
--
------------------------------ Rich Lafferty ---------------------------
Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services
Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625
------------------------- rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca ----------------------
7:37 p.m.
I do a fair amount of buying on ebay and here's what I've learned...
If you want an item and you know what a fair price is, bid that amount
on the last day of the auction. (Example: Mac IIfx motherboard that I
wanted. 32 mb ram included. Fair price for board was about $20, fair
price for ram was about $25. I bid $45 while the bidding was in the
low teens. I watched the snipers bounce off my bid up to $31. Then
it was mine. A deal.)
If you find an item with one bid with two minutes to go, bid the fair
amount in the last ten seconds. There are numerous utilities to sync
your system clock. Use 'em. (Example: PDS/Nubus adapter sat with one
bid for seven days. I needed it, I sniped it. But once again, I was
willing to pay a 'fair' price.)
The key words above are "FAIR PRICE"!!! If you're willing to pay what
the market price is, you'll usually end up with it.
Sniping is a fact of life. You just deal with it. Pay a fair price
and don't worry about it.
The reason that I asked about 'sniping s/w' is the feature of being
able to bid on multiple items and bail on the bids further down the
line when you get what you're after.
Jim
8:43 p.m.
A second-bidder auction without sealed bids is not a
Vickrey auction.
You can't snipe a Vickrey auction.
>
> I have no idea if eBay selected Vickrey's model, or duplicated it by
> accident, but AFAICT the only difference between theirs and his is that
> with eBay, the winner pays one bid increment above the runner up's bid,
> instead of exactly the lower bid.
The problem I see with the Vickrey auction is that it better have a
"strong" penalty for default, otherwise you could just bid HIGH knowing you
would only pay the last "sensible" bid amount unless some other nut was out
there bidding high too. With 1 nut, he wins all the auctions at a fair
price, with 2 nuts, most likely one or both will default.
Case in Point, Dutch auction on ebay of 5 power supplies, and to sweeten
the deal the seller is offering a an item worth as much just about as a
power supply as a bonus to the high bidder. Most bids were around $10, then
a $20 bid shows up, then a $25, then a $35 sniped in at the last minute.
Everybody paid less than about $12 (lowest winning bid), but I was QUITE
tempted to drop in my own last minute bid of $37 just to raise the minimum
bid a notch or two. (yes I wanted both the power supply and bonus item, and
happen to know the seller who is a nice guy deserving of the overall higher
price.) My point is that the high bidders only made the bids they did with
the expectation of n-1 nuts, so they didn't have to make good on the full
bid amount.
21 Dec
21 Dec
4:14 a.m.
-> Case in Point, Dutch auction on ebay of 5 power supplies, and to
sweeten
-> the deal the seller is offering a an item worth as much just about as
a
-> power supply as a bonus to the high bidder. Most bids were around
$10, then
-> a $20 bid shows up, then a $25, then a $35 sniped in at the last
minute.
-> Everybody paid less than about $12 (lowest winning bid), but I was
QUITE
-> tempted to drop in my own last minute bid of $37 just to raise the
minimum
-> bid a notch or two. (yes I wanted both the power supply and bonus
item, and
-> happen to know the seller who is a nice guy deserving of the overall
higher
-> price.) My point is that the high bidders only made the bids they did
with
-> the expectation of n-1 nuts, so they didn't have to make good on the
full
-> bid amount.
Dutch auctions where the items offered are not identical are not allowed
according to eBay rules. Adding a bonus item, or as some sellers do,
state that the nicest or best item will go to the highest bidder, is
also not allowed. If an auction like this is brought to eBay's
attention, it will be terminated.
Bill
whdawson*at*mlynk.com
20 Dec
20 Dec
7:21 p.m.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, William Fulmor wrote:
In naming him for the 1996 Nobel Prize, the
selection committee
specifically cited his novel approach to auctioneering (now known
as a Vickrey auction), which, through sealed bidding, awards the
auctioned item to the highest bidder but at the sum bid by the
second-highest bidder. According to Vickrey, in guaranteeing the lower
price, both buyers and sellers benefit from bids that more accurately
reflect the value of the item.
William, please explain in what way this describes the eBay auction
mechanism? eBay does not used a sealed bid. A sealed bid auction is
quite different than what eBay uses. And of course the high bid is what
is paid.
I have no idea if eBay selected Vickrey's model,
or duplicated it by
accident, but AFAICT the only difference between theirs and his is that
with eBay, the winner pays one bid increment above the runner up's bid,
instead of exactly the lower bid.
What are you talking about? Wouldn't "one bid increment above the runner
up's bid" just mean the high bid??? And again, they did not use Vickrey's
method.
Is this O/T, or what?
Always is, and obnoxious to boot. I motion for the creation of the
"!@%^$# eBay Gripe Mailing List" and that any message coming to CC that
has "eBay" (case insensitive) within the header or body will be
automatically routed to that list. Then people who actually care to wade
through all this eBay bullshit could subscribe to that list.
Can I get a second?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:50 p.m.
New subject: MACLISP
Anybody know where I can find a MACLISP reference manual?
(BTW, In this case, MAC refers to Project MAC (Multiple Access Computer?),
and not the cute little box from Cupertino).
Thanks,
Doug
8:50 p.m.
On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:21:29PM -0800, Sellam Ismail (foo(a)siconic.com) wrote:
No. If we're both bidding on an auction, I bid $1000, and you bid $30,
I'll end up paying about $31, if the minimum bid increment is $1.
I have no idea if eBay selected Vickrey's
model, or duplicated it by
accident, but AFAICT the only difference between theirs and his is that
with eBay, the winner pays one bid increment above the runner up's bid,
instead of exactly the lower bid.
What are you talking about? Wouldn't "one bid increment above the runner
up's bid" just mean the high bid??? And again, they did not use Vickrey's
method. > Is this O/T, or what?
Hrm, I didn't respond to this part in the first bit of the
message. No, I think strategies to win auctions is pretty on-topic on
this list.
Always is, and obnoxious to boot.
Agreed, you are. Painfully and consistently so. I've never seen
someone bring me so close to unsubscribing so often. Maybe it's just
time for a killfile. If only mail had long References: threads.
I motion for the creation of the > "!@%^$#
eBay Gripe Mailing List"
and that any message coming to CC that > has "eBay" (case insensitive)
within the header or body will be > automatically routed to that list.
Then people who actually care to wade > through all this eBay bullshit
could subscribe to that list.
Can I get a second?
I'd prefer that "bullshit" that's relevant to buying and selling
classic computers to much of that which spews forth from you.
I'd also prefer you get off your high horse and realize that there are
other people on the list than you, despite what you'd *prefer* to
think.
-Rich
--
------------------------------ Rich Lafferty ---------------------------
Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services
Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625
------------------------- rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca ----------------------
21 Dec
21 Dec
4:36 a.m.
I'm often tempted to "jump" Sellam's arguments just because HE's the
one who
made them, but you have to allow for the fact that "where you sit determines
what you see." He's in a different situation than most of us, and in fact
I'm in a different situation than most of us as well. He wants to complete
a really broad selection of classic computers and computer-related
hardware/software. Some parts of what he wants are pretty rare, and for his
purposes, he really MUST have them. Most of the rest of us are pretty
narrow in our respective specialties. He's not.
Now I can see how it p*sses him off when he sees THE one item he's needing
to make a section of his collection work a certain way go for about $2k more
than he's prepared to pay, particularly when he didn't buy it for $50
because he thought that was a mite high.
The fact is, there are many different points of view out there among the
general public, some of which might be quite inconprehensible to those of us
who are trying to build a relatively homogeneous collection on a budget
somewhat less than the national debt. The priorities of those building an
"eclectic" collection might even be lost on those with a homogeneous one.
If you're building a collection of Cromemco S-100 systems, you might be
willing to pay quite a bit for that last really rare item in the collection.
If you've got ten such items to collect, as Sellam certainly has, the price
is a MAJOR issue, and the fact that the one rarity needed to complete one
segment of his collection is currently available is, perhaps, not as
important as that fact that paying too much for one such item may make it
difficult to pay what's reasonable for another.
My own situation is that I've got very little that I want, yet have quite a
bit of "stuff" that should be of interest to someone else, and I'm
interested not only in getting each item to a "good home" where it will be
used and not just grist for the sell-and-trade mill, I'm also interested in
getting the best price or trade for what I'm offering. eBay hasn't done
much for me, but I have, essentially, gotten pretty much what I paid, 20
years ago, for the more uncommon items. A couple of times that hasn't
worked out so favorably. Since I'm not a buyer, I can't object to high
prices. Consequently, I don't agree with Sellam's complaints that eBay
prices wind up too high. It certainly hasn't worked that way for me.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Lafferty" <rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: Snipe S/W?
On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:21:29PM -0800, Sellam
Ismail (foo(a)siconic.com)
wrote:
>
> > I have no idea if eBay selected Vickrey's model, or duplicated it by
> > accident, but AFAICT the only difference between theirs and his is
that
> > with eBay, the winner pays one bid increment
above the runner up's
bid,
> > instead of exactly the lower bid.
>
> What are you talking about? Wouldn't "one bid increment above the
runner
> up's bid" just mean the high bid??? And
again, they did not use
Vickrey's
method.
No. If we're both bidding on an auction, I bid $1000, and you bid $30,
I'll end up paying about $31, if the minimum bid increment is $1.
> Is this O/T, or what?
Hrm, I didn't respond to this part in the first bit of the
message. No, I think strategies to win auctions is pretty on-topic on
this list.
Always is, and obnoxious to boot.
Agreed, you are. Painfully and consistently so. I've never seen
someone bring me so close to unsubscribing so often. Maybe it's just
time for a killfile. If only mail had long References: threads.
I motion for the creation of the >
"!@%^$# eBay Gripe Mailing List"
and that any message coming to CC that > has "eBay" (case insensitive)
within the header or body will be > automatically routed to that list.
Then people who actually care to wade > through all this eBay bullshit
could subscribe to that list.
Can I get a second?
I'd prefer that "bullshit" that's relevant to buying and selling
classic computers to much of that which spews forth from you.
I'd also prefer you get off your high horse and realize that there are
other people on the list than you, despite what you'd *prefer* to
think.
-Rich
--
------------------------------ Rich Lafferty ---------------------------
Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services
Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625
------------------------- rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca ----------------------
5:57 a.m.
On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I'm often tempted to "jump" Sellam's
arguments just because HE's the one who
made them, but you have to allow for the fact that "where you sit determines
what you see." He's in a different situation than most of us, and in fact
I'm in a different situation than most of us as well. He wants to complete
a really broad selection of classic computers and computer-related
hardware/software. Some parts of what he wants are pretty rare, and for his
purposes, he really MUST have them. Most of the rest of us are pretty
narrow in our respective specialties. He's not.
Now I can see how it p*sses him off when he sees THE one item he's needing
to make a section of his collection work a certain way go for about $2k more
than he's prepared to pay, particularly when he didn't buy it for $50
because he thought that was a mite high.
Dick, please don't ever speak for me again. You have a great enough
problem trying to articulate your own point of view, the last thing we
need is for you to be speaking for others (especially when you are talking
out of your ass, as you seem to regularly do).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
3:42 a.m.
At 05:39 PM 12/20/00 -0800, you wrote:
An auction format that is sensible is the "going
once, twice, sold" method
which was used in newsgroups before online auctions came to be. It allows
fair bidding, results in a fair price (for both buyer and seller), and so
overall is fair for both buyers and sellers. Each party wins.
In a sensible auction proceeding, sniping should not
be possible, or even relevant.
One man's snipe bid is another man's bid. How do you determine
a sensible period between "going once" and "going twice"? In a
real-world auction where they're in a hurry to move to the
next item, N seems to be between zero and two seconds.
In your system, would I not be able to join the bidding
between "going once" and "going twice"? Why not? Because
I'm morally flawed for finding the auction at the last minute?
Maybe the only reason I saw the auction was because it was at
the top of the search results because it had five minutes to go.
To better fulfill this market, and perhaps aid the classic
computer collector, I wish there were better mechanisms for
obscure items, over longer periods of time.
A great deal of eBay's success seems to be people fulfilling
long-held wishes for items they couldn't acquire earlier
in their lives. I really want the 1962-era Knickerbocker
Yogi Bear plush doll with the soft hands, not the hard hands.
One seems to come up every three-four months, and I've missed
two, I think, not to snipers, but to an unwillingness (so far)
to pay more than $40 total. I don't remember what happened
to my Yogi in the late 60s, but I'm willing to wait to replace him.
I wish eBay had better mechanisms for managing the time period
of auctions. For some items, why not have an indefinite time
period, and let the seller determine when the auction count-down
starts? For example, if I want to sell a very obscure item
that I don't want to sell for $1, I could let the description
sit for a month (to attract flies and lure bidders) and then
when 10 bidders have signed up to show interest, I start the
3-day auction period in today's fashion.
In fact, this is this morning's business idea. You could
leverage eBay's present mechanism in toto, and all of the
above could reside at a second site, and part of your service
fee would include auto-posting the info to eBay.
Call it "preBay.com". Well, the domain's taken but there's
no web there... and there's even a revenue stream from
mini-payments ($1?) from users of the service.
- John
5:51 a.m.
On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, John Foust wrote:
One man's snipe bid is another man's bid. How
do you determine
a sensible period between "going once" and "going twice"? In a
real-world auction where they're in a hurry to move to the
next item, N seems to be between zero and two seconds.
In the newsgroups, N is between 1 and 2 days. Sure it draws it out, but
this is the Internet. We can get away with that.
In your system, would I not be able to join the
bidding
between "going once" and "going twice"? Why not? Because
I'm morally flawed for finding the auction at the last minute?
Maybe the only reason I saw the auction was because it was at
the top of the search results because it had five minutes to go.
I think the way some newsgroup auctions work, the sellers only allow
previous bidders to participate in the "going" phase. But I've also seen
the bidding stay open to all until it's "gone".
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
19 Dec
19 Dec
11:20 p.m.
It's also very unlike a live auction. Most
auctioneers hate people who
snipe, because a sniper doesn't take place in the bidding war that leads to
higher prices. At most auctions, you'll find that the auctioneer and
his/her staff will "fail to notice" bids from persistent snipers unless
Live auctioneers will "fail to notice" you for a host of reasons, if they
"can". Unless the auctioneer knows you AND watches you, don't make a subtle
first bid. Put your paddle in the air and make some NOISE ("yes" or
"here"
seems to work if screamed with gusto).
11:48 a.m.
- Know who
your friends are. If you find yourself constantly
coming up against the same person on stuff, send him or her
some email. Get to know the other person. Try to form some
sort of working relationship that facilitates communication
on a per-auction basis. Decide amongst yourselves who wants
or needs the item more. Concede once in a while. It's better
to have friends than enemies...and sometimes those friends
spot things that you may have missed.
Not that I plan to turn you in (as long as you send me $100 within the
next 2 weeks, e-mail me for my address :) but this practice is actually
illegal.
12:03 p.m.
healyzh(a)aracnet.com wrote:
Why on earth would this be illegal? This happens at real auctions, and I'm
sure it happens on eBay as well.
It probably does happen on Ebay but it falls in the classification of
collusion, and that is not permitted by Ebay rules.
- Know
who your friends are. If you find yourself constantly
coming up against the same person on stuff, send him or her
some email. Get to know the other person. Try to form some
Not that I plan to turn you in (as long as you send me $100 within the
next 2 weeks, e-mail me for my address :) but this practice is actually
illegal.
12:10 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Marvin wrote:
It probably does happen on Ebay but it falls in the
classification of
collusion, and that is not permitted by Ebay rules.
I'm lead to believe there are also actually laws forbidding this practice.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12:07 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 healyzh(a)aracnet.com wrote:
Why on earth would this be illegal? This happens at real auctions, and I'm
sure it happens on eBay as well.
I don't make the laws, I just inflame readers on mailing lists by posting
them.
It has to do with collusion and price-fixing.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
- Know who your friends are. If you find yourself
constantly
coming up against the same person on stuff, send him or her
some email. Get to know the other person. Try to form some
sort of working relationship that facilitates communication
on a per-auction basis. Decide amongst yourselves who wants
or needs the item more. Concede once in a while. It's better
to have friends than enemies...and sometimes those friends
spot things that you may have missed.
Not that I plan to turn you in (as long as you send me $100 within the
next 2 weeks, e-mail me for my address :) but this practice is actually
illegal.
3:19 p.m.
At 03:07 PM 12/19/00 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote:
I don't make the laws, I just inflame readers on
mailing lists by posting
them.
It has to do with collusion and price-fixing.
I'm sad they took away the ability to see past bidder's e-mails.
It was a great way to pump up interest in a sale. It's another
example of something eBay could turn to their advantage.
I don't want a stupid search agent to look for "Yogi doll"
for me every three days. Give me the option to hand out my
e-mail address (or better yet, an eBay private box address
that's auto-forwarded to my non-public e-mail address) to
anyone selling something I might want, and give me a way
to file a different kind of feedback to help police people
who might be inclined to spam via this mechanism.
- John
4:19 p.m.
John Foust wrote:
I'm sad they took away the ability to see past
bidder's e-mails.
It was a great way to pump up interest in a sale. It's another
example of something eBay could turn to their advantage.
On the bid history screen, if I follow the bidder's screen name, I am allowed
to see the email address associated with the screen name, but I have to
sign-in myself during the process. I've been researching buyers and sending
out email notices to people who have bid before on similar items. From
responses I have gotten, they seem to appreciate it, and it definitely
increases page views.
-- John Tinker
4:10 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, John Tinker wrote:
On the bid history screen, if I follow the
bidder's screen name, I am
allowed to see the email address associated with the screen name, but
I have to sign-in myself during the process. I've been researching
buyers and sending out email notices to people who have bid before on
similar items. From responses I have gotten, they seem to appreciate
it, and it definitely increases page views.
Since I don't use eBay and haven't for a long time I don't get these types
of e-mails. But in general I get PISSED when someone solicits me like
this. Especially when it's like "Hey, I have an Altair for sale, and it's
listed on eBay!!!" No, I don't care.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
6:17 p.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
Since I don't use eBay and haven't for a long
time I don't get these types
of e-mails. But in general I get PISSED when someone solicits me like
this. Especially when it's like "Hey, I have an Altair for sale, and it's
listed on eBay!!!" No, I don't care.
Yessir. B,b,but people who have b,been b,bidding on ebay might even pr,probably
care. Um, that's what I was thinking, see. An,and see, you haven't been bidding,
so you don't get the emails. So it's like perfection of design. See? So, you have
enough Altairs, ok? Ok. I'm going to make a note of that. I'm writing that down
right now, "No more Altairs for Sellam." But there must be *something* you
want,
that you wouldn't mind getting an email about, isn't there? Now be honest...
7:20 p.m.
New subject: WTB: Corvus HD for Apple II or B-Sider tape drive.
I've actually wanted one of these drives for a while but could never really
justify spending the fair price for one of these but I'm getting a nice, fat
Holiday bonus at work this Friday, so I thought that I would place my
request out here in case any of you have one that you might like to sell.
What I'm hoping to get is one of those BIG old Corvus drives, with a
controller card for an Apple IIe. I'm trying to round out my A2 collection,
and I was hoping to use the Corvus to set an Apple II BBS using one of the
extra analog phone lines at my office. Why a BBS now, when the internet is
so much easier to use? Mostly, I'm just doing it for fun, and for the
experience. I could never afford the equipment when I was younger, and doing
this would allow me to do something that I wanted to do a long time ago.
So if you have one of these, and you might be willing to sell it if the
price is right, let me know. You may not get a million bucks for it but you
might make enough to offset part of the cost of your Holiday gift purchases.
Obviously, I'll offer more if you have a nice, complete set up, with
manuals, software, cables, etc..
I'm also looking for a B-Sider tape drive, to use with my Sider hard drive
if anyone has one of those for sale. (ya right.)
Anyway, let me know if you're open to negotiations. I can send the money
right away.
Ernest
ernest(a)msrcorp.com / ernestls(a)home.com
20 Dec
20 Dec
12:27 a.m.
New subject: WTB: Corvus HD for Apple II or B-Sider tape drive.
and I was hoping to use the Corvus to set an Apple II
BBS using one of the
extra analog phone lines at my office. Why a BBS now, when the internet is
I doubt any of the people I knew that ran a A2 BBS had anything remotely
fancy, just a couple floppy drives. The corvus is an old slow network thing.
OTOH I have 3 Profiles, 2 Siders, and a shelf of tape stuff, but haven't
scratched at my A2 itch in some time.
19 Dec
19 Dec
8:40 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, John Tinker wrote:
Yessir. B,b,but people who have b,been b,bidding on
ebay might even
pr,probably care. Um, that's what I was thinking, see. An,and see, you
haven't been bidding, so you don't get the emails. So it's like
perfection of design. See? So, you have enough Altairs, ok? Ok. I'm
going to make a note of that. I'm writing that down right now, "No
more Altairs for Sellam." But there must be *something* you want, that
you wouldn't mind getting an email about, isn't there? Now be
honest...
Um, sex?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
4:47 p.m.
Sometimes, when I've got an item that someone else is selling on the eBay,
and the ending price is high enough to suit me, I've contacted the bidders
who didn't win out and offered to sell to them at their bid price. It's
worked out for me so far. One of these days, I'm going to have to get a
digital camera so I can put up pictures of my own stuff. Generally my stuff
is more complete than what's offered, though that's not universally the
case.
The results I've had suggest to me that the folks are bidding to get the
item on auction, and not just to beat the other guy.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Tinker" <jtinker(a)coin.org>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: Snipe S/W?
John Foust wrote:
allowed
I'm sad they took away the ability to see
past bidder's e-mails.
It was a great way to pump up interest in a sale. It's another
example of something eBay could turn to their advantage.
On the bid history screen, if I follow the bidder's screen name, I am to see the email address associated with the screen
name, but I have to
sign-in myself during the process. I've been researching buyers and
sending
out email notices to people who have bid before on
similar items. From
responses I have gotten, they seem to appreciate it, and it definitely
increases page views.
-- John Tinker
11:59 a.m.
- Know who
your friends are. If you find yourself constantly
coming up against the same person on stuff, send him or her
some email. Get to know the other person. Try to form some
sort of working relationship that facilitates communication
on a per-auction basis. Decide amongst yourselves who wants
or needs the item more. Concede once in a while. It's better
to have friends than enemies...and sometimes those friends
spot things that you may have missed.
Not that I plan to turn you in (as long as you send me $100 within the
next 2 weeks, e-mail me for my address :) but this practice is actually
illegal.
2:27 p.m.
Let's not forget that eBay provides a service. Maybe not to those who don't
buy or sell there, but ... the have mechanisms in place that drive prices
up, true, but they don't force anybody to bid more than they're willing.
The fact that the prices are driven up is a SERVICE to their customers,
since their customers are the ones who ultimately get the benefit of the
higher prices. The benefit to the ultimate buyer is that he GETS what he
wants, while the others, the LOSERS, since this is a competitive market,
don't. The losers, those who didn't want to pay what was necessary, lost
because they didn't have what it took to get the goods.
eBay will continue to exist long after AMAZON and Yahoo are long forgotten
simply because they provide a legitimate service to their customers, the
sellers. Like a real-estate broker, they, eBay, get a cut. It's not 7%
like the real-estate broker gets, but it's enough that they're profitable,
and from what I've read, they have been almost since day 1, which is almost
unheard of in the internet biz.
One thing is lacking, however, and that's the guy who finds you and breaks
your legs when you bid and then don't buy. There's something in the works,
however, so they may finally plug that hole.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Snipe S/W?
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Dave McGuire wrote:
Festival
- Bid odd amounts...not $150.00, but $156.56.
Shift to the high side
of ones or cents. Often people will bid even amounts like
$150.00 or slightly higher like $150.01.
Just bid $1 million. You'll be guaranteed to get it everytime.
- Know the "deep pockets" bidders.
People like "at90210",
"dimethyl", and "shirotori"...these folks have more money than
all of us put together, and have no qualms with spending it
to keep you from getting what you want if you piss them off.
Don't snipe the big spenders, or you'll never win an auction
again. It's as simple as that.
Wow, eBay mafioso.
- Know who your friends are. If you find
yourself constantly
coming up against the same person on stuff, send him or her
some email. Get to know the other person. Try to form some
sort of working relationship that facilitates communication
on a per-auction basis. Decide amongst yourselves who wants
or needs the item more. Concede once in a while. It's better
to have friends than enemies...and sometimes those friends
spot things that you may have missed.
Not that I plan to turn you in (as long as you send me $100 within the
next 2 weeks, e-mail me for my address :) but this practice is actually
illegal.
Is sniping morally wrong? I dunno, ask a
priest. Is it rude?
Definitely. But there are SO many people who do it, screw it. If you
snipe someone and can't live with yourself afterwards, then don't
snipe anymore. But if you're sick of BEING sniped, or of simply not
winning the auctions that you want to win, then go for it. It's a
cold, cruel world out there.
Unfortunately, eBay's retarded auction mechanism promotes the use of
sniping. As I've argued before, it encourages over-bidding.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
4:47 p.m.
Sellam wrote:
Just bid $1 million. You'll be guaranteed to get
it everytime.
$1,000,002.02
To keep Sellam from getting it with his $1 million bid that he does
every time.
He knows what stuff is worth to him, and treated me fairly on the stuff
that he bought from me. Four mo' boxes.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
2:40 p.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
Hmmm, I'm not sure it does (in my case only). I setup a snipe for the max
amount I want and not anymore. I've always assumed (yea, I know) that others
sniped also. I usually bid on some pretty weird stuff. Not many people
will bid a Cisco ASM (a 64 port terminal server (64(base 10) = o100(base 8)
:-).
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Dave McGuire wrote:
I'm not so sure about that, I've seen way too many that just keep bidding.
- Bid odd amounts...not $150.00, but $156.56.
Shift to the high side
of ones or cents. Often people will bid even amounts like
$150.00 or slightly higher like $150.01.
Just bid $1 million. You'll be guaranteed to get it everytime. Is sniping
morally wrong? I dunno, ask a priest. Is it rude?
Definitely. But there are SO many people who do it, screw it. If you
snipe someone and can't live with yourself afterwards, then don't
snipe anymore. But if you're sick of BEING sniped, or of simply not
winning the auctions that you want to win, then go for it. It's a
cold, cruel world out there.
Unfortunately, eBay's retarded auction mechanism promotes the use of
sniping. As I've argued before, it encourages over-bidding.
11:50 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
Is sniping morally wrong? I dunno, ask a priest. Is it rude?
Definitely. But there are SO many people who do it, screw it. If you
IMNSHO, there is nothing wrong at all wrong with sniping. OTOH not sniping
is, for the most part, just the sign of an inexperienced bidder. Why snipe?
The main reason is there is always someone out there willing to push a bit
just to see if they can get the bid. That is really hard to do when you
don't place your bid until the last moment :)! Personally, I think it
*really stupid* of Ebay and other sites not to allow a sealed proxy bid so
the only thing showing is that a bid has been made. From the sellers
perspective, it would probably result in higher prices. A lot of people,
myself included, will put something out with "no idea" of what it might be
worth and start the bid low. Let those that know set the price .. or get a
bargain as the case might be :)!!!
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participants (24)
-
bills＠adrenaline.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
doug＠blinkenlights.com -
ecloud＠bigfoot.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
ernestls＠home.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
gregorym＠cadvision.com -
harrison＠timharrison.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jhellige＠earthlink.net -
jrasite＠eoni.com -
jtinker＠coin.org -
KenzieM＠sympatico.ca -
marvin＠rain.org -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
ncherry＠home.net -
rich＠alcor.concordia.ca -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
whdawson＠mlynk.com -
wpfulmor＠dimensional.com