26 Apr
2014
26 Apr
'14
9:21 p.m.
I have some SCSI disks with unknown contents which I would like to check
before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were used with. The
only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen, so I can check them
for VMS format without issue. However, for the ones that are not VMS format
I would need a way to find out what format they are.
I was wondering if there is any VMS software for reading FAT disks (as that
is a pretty likely format). According to Hoff
(http://www.hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/vmsfaq_012.html) there is VMS freeware
that will read FAT diskettes, I am not sure if it will read hard disks too.
Trouble is I don't seem to have that version of the Freeware, does anyone
have version 6 and the WINFX software?
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I don't have one yet, but I
think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
Regards
Rob
26 Apr
26 Apr
10:35 p.m.
On Apr 26, 2014, at 4:21 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
...
I was wondering if there is any VMS software for reading FAT disks (as that
is a pretty likely format). According to Hoff
(http://www.hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/vmsfaq_012.html) there is VMS freeware
that will read FAT diskettes, I am not sure if it will read hard disks too.
Trouble is I don't seem to have that version of the Freeware, does anyone
have version 6 and the WINFX software?
One option might be to port mtools from Unix to VMS; that?s an open source package for
manipulating FAT file systems.
paul
11:08 p.m.
On 26/04/2014 21:21, Robert Jarratt wrote:
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I
don't have one yet, but I
think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
Regards
Rob
Rob,
I am sure I have some SCSI cards in the loft I will try and drop one
off one night for you...
Dave
27 Apr
27 Apr
8:55 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: 26 April 2014 23:09
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Checking Contents of Unknown Disks
On 26/04/2014 21:21, Robert Jarratt wrote:
one
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I
don't have one yet,
but I think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
Regards
Rob
Rob,
I am sure I have some SCSI cards in the loft I will try and drop one off night for you...
Dave
That is very kind Dave. I will hold off buying something for now.
When you come round bring a container, I promised you some oil for your
Creed.
Regards
Rob
9:55 a.m.
I think I still have a Trantor T-348 Mini-SCSI kicking around here. They
work with DOS machines, will let you work with SCSI discs connected via the
parallel port. I used mine to load Mac stuff onto external discs from Linux
machines, back in the 90s.
Early (earlier) Linux kernels in & around the 2.2 range also support these
devices. If you need a simple SCSI -> PC hookup, it might be the ticket.
One might find useful examples on eBay for less than $20.00 US, I would
hope.
On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 2:55 AM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
wrote:
-----Original
Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:
cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: 26 April 2014 23:09
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Checking Contents of Unknown Disks
On 26/04/2014 21:21, Robert Jarratt wrote:
off
one
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I
don't have one yet,
but I think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
Regards
Rob
Rob,
I am sure I have some SCSI cards in the loft I will try and drop one night for you...
Dave
That is very kind Dave. I will hold off buying something for now.
When you come round bring a container, I promised you some oil for your
Creed.
Regards
Rob
3:49 p.m.
On 04/27/2014 03:55 AM, drlegendre . wrote:
I think I still have a Trantor T-348 Mini-SCSI kicking
around here. They
work with DOS machines, will let you work with SCSI discs connected via the
parallel port. I used mine to load Mac stuff onto external discs from Linux
machines, back in the 90s.
Interesting. Right before I left the UK and moved to the US, I was hacking
together a parallel port-based SCSI adapter; the main reason for doing it
that way being that I also wanted to support SASI devices too, so doing all
the signal twiddling in software was the best approach (and it wasn't as
though throughput was a priority!)
My first PC SCSI card was actually the CDROM interface on a Pro
AudioSpectrum sound card - no DMA support, but it was good enough for
accessing drives via Linux.
cheers
Jules
26 Apr
26 Apr
11:42 p.m.
On 04/26/2014 03:21 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
I have some SCSI disks with unknown contents which I
would like to check
before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were used with. The
only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen, so I can check them
for VMS format without issue. However, for the ones that are not VMS format
I would need a way to find out what format they are.
I don't know what facilities VMS gives you, but I normally drag the first
block off an unknown disk and just look at it in a hex editor.
Don't forget that you'll typically have a partition table of some format to
deal with, before you can get at the individual filesystem(s) on the disk.
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I
don't have one yet, but I
think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
I'm going off hazy memory, but I think that the AU was narrow (8-bit) SCSI
only? Of course that might work for what you have now, but a 2940UW might
be a better bet just in case you end up wanting to connect wide SCSI
devices in the future.
cheers
Jules
27 Apr
27 Apr
12:12 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Jules Richardson
Sent: 26 April 2014 23:42
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Checking Contents of Unknown Disks
On 04/26/2014 03:21 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
block
I have some SCSI disks with unknown contents
which I would like to
check before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were
used with. The only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen,
so I can check them for VMS format without issue. However, for the
ones that are not VMS format I would need a way to find out what format
they are.
I don't know what facilities VMS gives you, but I normally drag the first
off an unknown disk and just look at it in a hex
editor.
What tools do you use to get the raw blocks?
Don't forget that you'll typically have a partition table of some format
to
deal
with, before you can get at the individual
filesystem(s) on the disk.
only?
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I
don't have one yet,
but I think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
I'm going off hazy memory, but I think that the AU was narrow (8-bit) SCSI
Of course that might work for what you have now, but a
2940UW might be a
better bet just in case you end up wanting to connect wide SCSI devices in
the
future.
The SCSI disks I am most interested in tend to be the narrow ones anyway,
but thanks for the suggestion about the UW model. When I looked at the other
models I thought I saw SCSI-1 support missing, but on double checking the UW
model does support it, so UW definitely looks better. I think the 29160
looks pretty good too in terms of flexibility, although I can't quite tell
from the specs if it will handle the older disks.
Regards
Rob
3:31 a.m.
On 04/26/2014 06:12 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
Just dd under UNIX & friends. I've no idea if there's something similar for
VMS.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Jules Richardson
Sent: 26 April 2014 23:42
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Checking Contents of Unknown Disks
On 04/26/2014 03:21 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
block
I have some SCSI disks with unknown contents
which I would like to
check before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were
used with. The only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen,
so I can check them for VMS format without issue. However, for the
ones that are not VMS format I would need a way to find out what format
they are.
I don't know what facilities VMS gives you, but I normally drag the first off an unknown disk and just look at it in a hex
editor.
What tools do you use to get the raw blocks? The SCSI disks I am most interested in tend to be the
narrow ones anyway,
but thanks for the suggestion about the UW model. When I looked at the other
models I thought I saw SCSI-1 support missing, but on double checking the UW
model does support it, so UW definitely looks better. I think the 29160
looks pretty good too in terms of flexibility, although I can't quite tell
from the specs if it will handle the older disks.
Yes, I don't remember for sure now, either. I had a PC with a 29160 and a
2940UW in - I think it may have been that the 29160's external connector
was LVD, which was no good for my external tape streamer, but the 29160
gave better performance for the internal drives. If you're just reading old
disks then performance isn't really an issue - the 2940UW would be plenty
fast enough.
cheers
Jules
12:15 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Jules Richardson
Sent: 26 April 2014 23:42
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Checking Contents of Unknown Disks
On 04/26/2014 03:21 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
block
I have some SCSI disks with unknown contents
which I would like to
check before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were
used with. The only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen,
so I can check them for VMS format without issue. However, for the
ones that are not VMS format I would need a way to find out what format
they are.
I don't know what facilities VMS gives you, but I normally drag the first
off an unknown disk and just look at it in a hex
editor.
Actually, it shouldn't be too hard to write the code to read the raw blocks
off a disk in VMS. I think I will do it as an exercise as it should be fun
and a chance to remember how to program on VMS again.
Regards
Rob
11:15 p.m.
On 04/26/2014 03:21 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
block
I have some SCSI disks with unknown contents
which I would like to
check before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were
used with. The only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen,
so I can check them for VMS format without issue. However, for the
ones that are not VMS format I would need a way to find out what format
they are.
I don't know what facilities VMS gives you, but I normally drag the first off an unknown disk and just look at it in a hex
editor.
Actually, it shouldn't be too hard to write the code to read the raw blocks
off a disk in VMS. I think I will do it as an exercise as it should be fun
and a chance to remember how to program on VMS again.
10:56 p.m.
On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I don't have one yet, but I
think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
That works.
FWIW, I use disktype[1] on FreeBSD to detect unknown stuff on disks,
floppies and whatnot. It doesn't have a lot of "vintage" formats, but
it is quite good with the more modern stuff.
It also works for images.
References:
1) http://disktype.sourceforge.net/
HTH
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen
28 Apr
28 Apr
1:18 a.m.
On 26 April 2014 21:21, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
I have some SCSI disks with unknown contents which I
would like to check
before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were used with. The
only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen, so I can check them
for VMS format without issue. However, for the ones that are not VMS format
I would need a way to find out what format they are.
I was wondering if there is any VMS software for reading FAT disks (as that
is a pretty likely format). According to Hoff
(http://www.hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/vmsfaq_012.html) there is VMS freeware
that will read FAT diskettes, I am not sure if it will read hard disks too.
Trouble is I don't seem to have that version of the Freeware, does anyone
have version 6 and the WINFX software?
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I don't have one yet, but I
think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
Are these the ones I just sent you?
If so, please DO NOT try to recover anything that may be on them. Just
wipe them.
And why didn't you /say/ you didn't have a PC SCSI card, FFS? I could
have sent you a selection, along with the disks and the TK50 tapes.
P.S. Don't bother trying to get anything off the tapes, either.
Consider them blank media.
--
Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884
5:49 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Liam Proven
Sent: 28 April 2014 01:19
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Checking Contents of Unknown Disks
On 26 April 2014 21:21, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
I have some
SCSI disks with unknown contents which I would like to
check before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were
used with. The only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen,
so I can check them for VMS format without issue. However, for the
ones that are not VMS format I would need a way to find out what format
they are.
>
>
>
> I was wondering if there is any VMS software for reading FAT disks (as
> that is a pretty likely format). According to Hoff
> (http://www.hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/vmsfaq_012.html) there is VMS
> freeware that will read FAT diskettes, I am not sure if it will read too.
wipe
Trouble is I don't seem to have that version
of the Freeware, does
anyone have version 6 and the WINFX software?
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I don't have one yet,
but I think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
Are these the ones I just sent you?
If so, please DO NOT try to recover anything that may be on them. Just them.
Actually no, none of them worked unfortunately :-(
And why didn't you /say/ you didn't have a PC SCSI card, FFS?
It never occurred to me to ask.
I could have sent
you a selection, along with the disks and the TK50 tapes.
P.S. Don't bother trying to get anything off the tapes, either.
Consider them blank media.
No problem, I haven't even looked at the tapes yet, and I am thinking I
won't test them either as the tapes often gum up the drive, which I would
prefer to keep clean for when I need it.
Regards
Rob
11:02 a.m.
On 28 April 2014 05:49, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
You're a strange man, Robert, and I must say, I find you very hard to
communicate with!
I have recycled (ISA/EISA) or given to Hackspace (PCI) about a dozen
SCSI cards in recent weeks.
I can ask if LHS can send you any leftovers?
--
Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884
Actually no, none of them worked unfortunately :-(
I'm sorry to hear that.
And why
didn't you /say/ you didn't have a PC SCSI card, FFS?
It never occurred to me to ask.
8:32 p.m.
On 28 April 2014 11:02, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
You're a strange man, Robert, and I must say, I find you very hard to
communicate with!
You sound just like my wife :-) I am not sure where I am going wrong, but I
also suspect you may have misunderstood some of my emails. That would be
understandable given the amount of parallel discussions you have been
having lately as a result of your pending emigration. You leave tomorrow if
I am not mistaken, I hope it goes well.
On 28 April 2014 05:49, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
Not to worry, that isn't entirely unexpected. Though I have been
prompted by another reply to think again and check termination properly.
Actually no, none of them worked unfortunately
:-(
I'm sorry to hear that.
And why
didn't you /say/ you didn't have a PC SCSI card, FFS?
It never occurred to me to ask.
I have recycled (ISA/EISA) or given to Hackspace (PCI) about a dozen
SCSI cards in recent weeks.
I can ask if LHS can send you any leftovers?
Not to worry about the SCSI cards though, someone local has offered me one.
I also have the MicroVAXen, which is where I intend to use them anyway. I
was just wondering if some of the other disks I have might be PC format.
Regards
Rob
1:16 p.m.
On 04/27/2014 11:49 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
How did you test them? Just wondering if there might be VAX quirks which
means that they may actually be OK...
cheers
J.
Are these the
ones I just sent you?
If so, please DO NOT try to recover anything that may be on them. Just
wipe
them.
Actually no, none of them worked unfortunately :-(
8:35 p.m.
On 28 April 2014 13:16, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com>wrote:
On 04/27/2014 11:49 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
I plugged the disks into the SCSI cable that was in my VAXstation 4000
Model 60. The disks would not show a size in the SH DEV command. There was
another disk on the cable, so if not properly terminated I would have
expected neither disk to be recognised, but the existing disk was
recognised. I could boot off the existing disk but could not mount the
other disks in any way (fatal drive error, or media offline were the
errors).
I will however check the termination just to be sure it isn't that.
Regards
Rob
Are these the ones I just sent you?
How did you test them? Just wondering if there might be VAX quirks which
means that they may actually be OK...
If so, please DO NOT try to recover anything that may be on them. Just
wipe
them.
Actually no, none of them worked unfortunately :-(
9:18 p.m.
On 04/28/2014 02:35 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote:
On 28 April 2014 13:16, Jules Richardson
<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com>wrote:
Yes, do double-check the termination - that the bus is terminated, and that
the termination is at the ends (I've seen cases where someone plugs a new
device in 'downstream' of an existing drive, where it's the existing drive
itself that's set up to terminate the bus, and that can cause weird things
to happen).
Make sure that there aren't any SCSI ID conflicts - although I'd expect
nothing to really work in that situation.
Are the 'new' drives definitely spinning? Some SCSI devices expect a 'start
unit' command to be sent before they'll spin up (it's typically a
jumper-configurable option) and I've no idea if a VAX does that by default.
cheers
Jules
On 04/27/2014 11:49 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
I plugged the disks into the SCSI cable that was in my VAXstation 4000
Model 60. The disks would not show a size in the SH DEV command. There was
another disk on the cable, so if not properly terminated I would have
expected neither disk to be recognised, but the existing disk was
recognised. I could boot off the existing disk but could not mount the
other disks in any way (fatal drive error, or media offline were the
errors).
I will however check the termination just to be sure it isn't that. Are these the ones I just sent you?
How did you test them? Just wondering if there might be VAX quirks which
means that they may actually be OK...
If so, please DO NOT try to recover anything that may be on them. Just
wipe
them.
Actually no, none of them worked unfortunately :-(
29 Apr
29 Apr
11:09 a.m.
Actually no, none of them worked unfortunately :-(
How did you test them? Just wondering if there might be VAX quirks which
means that they may actually be OK...
28 Apr
28 Apr
11:35 a.m.
On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 09:21:12PM +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote:
I have some SCSI disks with unknown contents which I
would like to check
before overwriting them. I don't even know what OS they were used with. The
only systems I have to hand with SCSI are MicroVAXen, so I can check them for
VMS format without issue. However, for the ones that are not VMS format I
would need a way to find out what format they are.
If you're in or near London, I can image them on my rig and have a crack at
decoding the contents. It worked well enough for recovering one of Liam's
knackered RAID5 arrays :)
[...]
Another way would be to use a PC SCSI adapter. I
don't have one yet, but I
think I will get one. I like the look of the Adaptec 2940AU.
Adaptec certainly seem to be the least-sucky of the PC SCSI adaptors I've
tried. You will still need a black goat and a silver knife though, as with any
kind of SCSI.
(SAS is an improvement in that it will accept frozen goat blood and doesn't
need fresh.)
1:40 p.m.
You will still need a black goat and a silver knife
though, as with
any kind of SCSI.
That certainly hasn't been my experience; I've found that SCSI Just
Works at least as often as any other external device interconnect,
possibly excepting good old serial lines.
Or do you find them _all_ to need magic rain dancing?
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
2:08 p.m.
On 04/28/2014 07:40 AM, Mouse wrote:
Agreed. The biggest problems I saw were down to people not properly
terminating buses, or using poor connectors/cables/terminators, or
attaching faulty/failing devices to the bus and then blaming SCSI itself
when things got glitchy.
*early* devices were problematic, however - I've got various gadgets and
boards which claim to be SCSI but aren't quite compliant because they
existed before the spec had really settled down.
You will still
need a black goat and a silver knife though, as with
any kind of SCSI.
That certainly hasn't been my experience; I've found that SCSI Just
Works at least as often as any other external device interconnect,
possibly excepting good old serial lines.
3675
days inactive
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22 comments
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abuse＠cabal.org.uk -
cctech＠beyondthepale.ie -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
drlegendre＠gmail.com -
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lproven＠gmail.com -
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