18 Nov
2002
18 Nov
'02
6:20 a.m.
At least $1500, ending today....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2071171983
From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com>
Reply-To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:04:53 -0800 (PST)
I suggest the former. Prices for old computers are
fairly well
established by now. These prices are independent of, for instance, the
CPU that may power the computer. For example, if a SOL-20 goes on the
market, chances are it could fetch up to $1,200, regardless of whether it
had an Intel C8080 on the original Processor Technology CPU board or if
it had a Cromemco ZPU with a Zilog Z80 (even a first run Z80). The CPU
has no bearing on the valuation of the machine.
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
18 Nov
18 Nov
7:02 a.m.
Even scarier:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2072033128
This is an Altair 8800 with 6 days left that has already reached $4,000.
One reason, I'm sure, is the addendum to the auction which reads:
"In response to several inquiries, the microprocessor on the first CPU
card is indeed a C8080 with no suffix (please see photo below). For
those of you who are not familiar with it, the C8080 was the earliest
version of this microprocessor and is the most sought after and valuable
of all the early Intel microprocessors. A C8080 chip alone can sell for
$700-$1000 depending on condition"
"However, it has been brought to my attention that the chip shown below
is an early production version of the 8080, made in 1973 at an Intel
subcontractor's assembly plant in Tijuana, Mexico. It is a very rare
chip, which might be worth 1.5x the value of a more typical C8080."
"I would like to thank Steve of The Antique Chip Collector's Page
(http://www.antiquetech.com) for his help in researching the background
of this chip."
I was considering bidding on this until the price reached the
stratosphere. I'd be willing to bet that the buyer can find a chip
collector to take that C8080 off his hands for at least $1,500. On the
other side of lunacy I'd be willing to pay the winner something
substantially less then that for the Computer Notes that are part of the
auction.
Erik
www.vintage-computer.com
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Glen Slick
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:21 AM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting? (SOL-20)
At least $1500, ending today....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2071171983
From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com>
Reply-To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting?
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:04:53 -0800 (PST)
I suggest the former. Prices for old computers are
fairly well
established by now. These prices are independent of, for instance, the
CPU that may power the computer. For example, if a SOL-20 goes on the
market, chances are it could fetch up to $1,200, regardless of whether
it
had an Intel C8080 on the original Processor Technology
CPU board or if
it had a Cromemco ZPU with a Zilog Z80 (even a first run Z80). The CPU
has no bearing on the valuation of the machine.
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
7:16 a.m.
Erik S. Klein wrote:
Even scarier:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2072033128
This is an Altair 8800 with 6 days left that has already reached $4,000.
I don't think it is the chip collectors that is the problem
but rather the bidding style of marketing that is the problem.
Ben.
7:27 a.m.
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote:
Even scarier:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2072033128
This is an Altair 8800 with 6 days left that has already reached $4,000.
One reason, I'm sure, is the addendum to the auction which reads:
"In response to several inquiries, the microprocessor on the first CPU
card is indeed a C8080 with no suffix (please see photo below). For
those of you who are not familiar with it, the C8080 was the earliest
version of this microprocessor and is the most sought after and valuable
of all the early Intel microprocessors. A C8080 chip alone can sell for
$700-$1000 depending on condition"
"However, it has been brought to my attention that the chip shown below
is an early production version of the 8080, made in 1973 at an Intel
subcontractor's assembly plant in Tijuana, Mexico. It is a very rare
chip, which might be worth 1.5x the value of a more typical C8080."
"I would like to thank Steve of The Antique Chip Collector's Page
(http://www.antiquetech.com) for his help in researching the background
of this chip."
I was considering bidding on this until the price reached the
stratosphere. I'd be willing to bet that the buyer can find a chip
collector to take that C8080 off his hands for at least $1,500. On the
other side of lunacy I'd be willing to pay the winner something
substantially less then that for the Computer Notes that are part of the
auction.
This is one of the reasons why I despise most "chip collectors".
-Toth
1:33 p.m.
New subject: Collecting Chip Collectors (was: Whats wrong with...)
Quothe Tothwolf, from writings of Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:32:15PM -0600:
This is one of the reasons why I despise most
"chip collectors".
Perhaps we could acquire some chip connectors and auction off their
CPUs, ermmm, I mean, their brains ; surely their brains are unique
enough to fetch a good price if placed in fancy jars filled with
differently tinted colors of formaldehyde; an immersible light placed
in the jar should cause a higher price to be fetched on e-bilk.
--
Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
2:51 p.m.
New subject: Collecting Chip Collectors (was: Whats wrong with...)
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, R. D. Davis wrote:
Quothe Tothwolf, from writings of Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at
12:32:15PM -0600:
Especially if it is photographed next to one of those brightly colored,
modded up PCs that seem to be so popular these days ;)
-Toth
This is one of the reasons why I despise most
"chip collectors".
Perhaps we could acquire some chip connectors and auction off their
CPUs, ermmm, I mean, their brains ; surely their brains are unique
enough to fetch a good price if placed in fancy jars filled with
differently tinted colors of formaldehyde; an immersible light placed in
the jar should cause a higher price to be fetched on e-bilk. 
19 Nov
19 Nov
1:11 a.m.
> "In response to several inquiries, the
microprocessor on the first CPU
> card is indeed a C8080 with no suffix (please see photo below). For
> those of you who are not familiar with it, the C8080 was the earliest
> version of this microprocessor and is the most sought after and valuable
> of all the early Intel microprocessors. A C8080 chip alone can sell for
> $700-$1000 depending on condition"
> "However, it has been brought to my
attention that the chip shown below
> is an early production version of the 8080, made in 1973 at an Intel
> subcontractor's assembly plant in Tijuana, Mexico. It is a very rare
> chip, which might be worth 1.5x the value of a more typical C8080."
> I was considering bidding on this until the price
reached the
> stratosphere. I'd be willing to bet that the buyer can find a chip
> collector to take that C8080 off his hands for at least $1,500. On the
> other side of lunacy I'd be willing to pay the winner something
> substantially less then that for the Computer Notes that are part of the
> auction.
This is one of the reasons why I despise most
"chip collectors".
Now, this is an argument wich backfires onto computer colletors.
There is a whole bunch out ther who disregard additional material
on various level. Some only like just the machine, and throw away
even the packageing (no, I'm not talking about Tony, his reasons
are different) and all materials except the bare computer. A lot
keep the basic configuration, but don't realy look at additional
dokumentation or books, and an even greater nummer throw away at
least all handmade dokumentation, photocopies and notes, together
with unidentified projets and so on.
These people are also called computer collectors ...
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 4.0 am 03./04. Mai 2003 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
3:17 p.m.
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18 Nov
18 Nov
6:54 p.m.
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote:
I was considering bidding on this until the price
reached the
stratosphere. I'd be willing to bet that the buyer can find a chip
collector to take that C8080 off his hands for at least $1,500. On the
other side of lunacy I'd be willing to pay the winner something
substantially less then that for the Computer Notes that are part of the
auction.
It would be funny to think a computer collector is bidding on this with
the intent of selling the CPU to a chip collector to recoup maybe half the
cost, or a chip collector is bidding it up for the 8080 and is planning to
sell the Altair to recoup the cost.
At any rate, like eBay stock, it's over-valued.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
19 Nov
19 Nov
5:13 a.m.
I was certainly considering buying this setup with the intent of
reselling it after scrounging the Computer Notes stuff but there's no
way I'd do that at $4k+.
Still, if you do the math it might work out for either the chip or
computer collector. On eBay Altairs run at $2,500-$3,500 with docs, the
chip might fetch $1,000 to a collector (remember the MITS CPU board that
sold for nearly $800 on the value of the chip alone?). . . so the
current bid of $4,000 is right on for eBay prices, as crazy as that
sounds.
Erik S. Klein
www.vintage-computer.com
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 1:57 PM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Whats wrong with chip collecting? (SOL-20)
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote:
I was considering bidding on this until the price
reached the
stratosphere. I'd be willing to bet that the buyer can find a chip
collector to take that C8080 off his hands for at least $1,500. On
the
other side of lunacy I'd be willing to pay the
winner something
substantially less then that for the Computer Notes that are part of
the
auction.
It would be funny to think a computer collector is bidding on this with
the intent of selling the CPU to a chip collector to recoup maybe half
the
cost, or a chip collector is bidding it up for the 8080 and is planning
to
sell the Altair to recoup the cost.
At any rate, like eBay stock, it's over-valued.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
10:51 a.m.
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote:
current bid of $4,000 is right on for eBay prices, as
crazy as that
sounds.
"...for eBay prices" is the key phrase.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
11:37 a.m.
I really don't see what is the problem with ebay. Buyers and sellers
can both reach a broader base. If you don't like the prices, don't buy.
A lot of people don't have the time to search out every little surplus
shop or auction to complete or add to our collection. Ebay makes it
easy. If I don't like the price it's sitting at, I wait until one comes
along that I want bad enough to cough up the cash. Free market
economics at it's finest.
James
William Donzelli wrote:
"...for
eBay prices" is the key phrase.
I would bet that of all collector-to-collector vintage computer deals out
there, 9 of 10 are done on Ebay.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
11:52 a.m.
Right. Heck, I've tried in the past to swap DEC items, but when I can
find a person that wants what I have, they never want to part with
any useful (to me) DEC part in exchange. I guess thats how most of
us are, we wouldnt have it in the first place if we didnt want it,
and we cant afford holding onto stuff we dont really want but might
have value, because we havent the space. Just Ebay it, take the money,
and wait for what you really want to show up on Ebay.
-Lawrence LeMay
I really don't see what is the problem with ebay.
Buyers and sellers
can both reach a broader base. If you don't like the prices, don't buy.
A lot of people don't have the time to search out every little surplus
shop or auction to complete or add to our collection. Ebay makes it
easy. If I don't like the price it's sitting at, I wait until one comes
along that I want bad enough to cough up the cash. Free market
economics at it's finest.
James
William Donzelli wrote:
"...for eBay prices" is the key phrase.
I would bet that of all collector-to-collector vintage computer deals out
there, 9 of 10 are done on Ebay.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
8:22 p.m.
And, it is an enjoyable sport to "get lucky"
(=perserverance and clever searches) to find things
others didn't find, and get them at a good price. Even
if I had limitless resources, I think I would have
more fun finding something "sorta good" at a bargain
than to just outbid everyone on something great.
People who don't like eBay might not like free market
economics, either - although this may be flamebait,
and I do loathe eBay, the company, and its new, even
more customer-support-less partner, Pay"pal". That
go***mn PayPal has the worst communications and
customer support of any company I've dealt with in
memory. And that includes the pre-Internet era.
Considering that they are raking in the dough, their
website and backend mechanisms are doggie dirt.
--- James Rice <jrice54(a)charter.net> wrote:
I really don't see what is the problem with ebay.
Buyers and sellers
can both reach a broader base. If you don't like
the prices, don't buy.
A lot of people don't have the time to search out
every little surplus
shop or auction to complete or add to our
collection. Ebay makes it
easy. If I don't like the price it's sitting at, I
wait until one comes
along that I want bad enough to cough up the cash.
Free market
economics at it's finest.
James
William Donzelli wrote:
vintage computer deals out
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com
"...for eBay prices" is the key phrase.
I would bet that of all collector-to-collector there, 9 of 10 are done on Ebay.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
11:07 p.m.
At 11:23 PM 11/19/02 -0800, you wrote:
And, it is an enjoyable sport to "get lucky"
(=perserverance and clever searches) to find things
others didn't find, and get them at a good price. Even
People who don't like eBay might not like free
market
economics, either - although this may be flamebait,
and I do loathe eBay, the company, and its new, even
Why I like ebay is that often the NEAT thing I find I really don't want to
keep, and selling it allows me to speculatively buy more stuff.
Neat thing I found today is a DaynaFile, an external SCSI device with both
a 360k and 1.2 MB floppies. Not that rare, but this one was real clean,
alas like all others before it, no freaking power supply. Hopefully
something generic 5 pin din will work (I know the connector is normal, a
keyboard plugs in fine, I mean a power supply).
3:28 p.m.
I would bet that of all collector-to-collector vintage
computer deals out
there, 9 of 10 are done on Ebay.
No way, first off most collectors selliing stuff, bought it via some other
transaction other than ebay.
OTOH if I had some choice bit like an Altair to sell, ebay sounds right to me.
OTOOH I do sell a fair amount of stuff for old computers, and I would say
its about half and half ebay vs support lists. As a practical matter the
ebay sales almost always are better transactions, smoother, faster etc.
5:29 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, William Donzelli wrote:
I'd be willing to bet otherwise. At least in my little sphere of
influence.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
"...for
eBay prices" is the key phrase.
I would bet that of all collector-to-collector vintage computer deals out
there, 9 of 10 are done on Ebay.
1:11 a.m.
"In response to several inquiries, the
microprocessor on the first CPU
card is indeed a C8080 with no suffix (please see photo below). For
those of you who are not familiar with it, the C8080 was the earliest
version of this microprocessor and is the most sought after and valuable
of all the early Intel microprocessors. A C8080 chip alone can sell for
$700-$1000 depending on condition"
"However, it has been brought to my attention
that the chip shown below
is an early production version of the 8080, made in 1973 at an Intel
subcontractor's assembly plant in Tijuana, Mexico. It is a very rare
chip, which might be worth 1.5x the value of a more typical C8080."
"I would like to thank Steve of The Antique Chip
Collector's Page
(http://www.antiquetech.com) for his help in researching the background
of this chip."
I was considering bidding on this until the price
reached the
stratosphere. I'd be willing to bet that the buyer can find a chip
collector to take that C8080 off his hands for at least $1,500. On the
other side of lunacy I'd be willing to pay the winner something
substantially less then that for the Computer Notes that are part of the
auction.
Well... now let's try this:
As I see a CPU gets more valuable as earlier it is - right?
So, now I happen to own a KIM which I belive is the real #1
board. The CPU is a MOS MCS 6502 dated 4675, white ceramic.
As such it is from the very first batch of 6502s, of course
includeing the infamous ROR bug (no, Intel wasn't the first
to sell buggy CPUs :). It ends not just there, but it might
even bee THE first 6502 - or at least the first to be used
in a manufactured computer.
Now this chip might for shure be of some value to collectors,
just if I'd take the CPU out of the board and replace it by
a later, bug free 6502 (which has been done to a lot of CPUs
back then), I'd still have the #1 KIM, in a beliveable and
usable configuration. The classic computer value will still
be the same (*1).
On the other hand, the CPU in it self, although still a quite
early date, and maybe *RARE*, suddenly lost any proof to be
that special, it is even less worth than a NOS version, since
it is unsoldered.
Anybody here to help the chip collectors out of this dilemma ?
Gruss
H.
(*1) I have no idea about a 'value' to assign to this unit,
especialy since the only valid way to do so would be to sell
it ... na, never :) - the same is true for a first series 6502.
--
VCF Europa 4.0 am 03./04. Mai 2003 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
2 a.m.
From: "Hans Franke"
<Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de>
So, now I happen to own a KIM which I belive is the real #1
board. The CPU is a MOS MCS 6502 dated 4675, white ceramic.
As such it is from the very first batch of 6502s, of course
includeing the infamous ROR bug (no, Intel wasn't the first
to sell buggy CPUs :). It ends not just there, but it might
even bee THE first 6502 - or at least the first to be used
in a manufactured computer.
That's a pretty nice little item. I'm curious about this ROR bug - I don't
remember talk of it from the time. Do you know when it was fixed? I happen
to have an OSI 300 (a very primitive 6502 trainer) with a similar CPU
datecoded 4775 on it, I would guess it's buggy too.
2:36 a.m.
From: "Jim Kearney" <jim(a)jkearney.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Whats wrong with chip collecting? (SOL-20)
Send reply to: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk-request@classiccmp.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<mailto:cctalk-request@classiccmp.org?subject=subscribe>
Date sent: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:01:25 -0500
Maybe check Peter Jennings site
http://www.benlo.com/
He has some notes about the missing ROR on his Reference sheet page
http://www.benlo.com/6502.html
His writeing about the development of the world famoud Microchess
for the KIM is a true tale of the early days:
http://www.benlo.com/microchess2.html
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 4.0 am 03./04. Mai 2003 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
From:
"Hans Franke" <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de>
So, now I happen to own a KIM which I belive is the real #1
board. The CPU is a MOS MCS 6502 dated 4675, white ceramic.
As such it is from the very first batch of 6502s, of course
includeing the infamous ROR bug (no, Intel wasn't the first
to sell buggy CPUs :). It ends not just there, but it might
even bee THE first 6502 - or at least the first to be used
in a manufactured computer.
That's a pretty nice little item. I'm curious about this ROR bug - I don't
remember talk of it from the time. Do you know when it was fixed? I happen
to have an OSI 300 (a very primitive 6502 trainer) with a similar CPU
datecoded 4775 on it, I would guess it's buggy too.
3:16 a.m.
He has some notes about the missing ROR on his
Reference sheet page
http://www.benlo.com/6502.html
His writeing about the development of the world famoud Microchess
for the KIM is a true tale of the early days:
http://www.benlo.com/microchess2.html
Thanks for the reference - very interesting site. The baudot TTY brings
back memories, I had the same thing hooked to my SYM-1 in '78 or so; baudot
is so slow that I used a reed relay to switch the current loop.
I dug out the OSI 300 documentation, and it has a copy of the instruction
set pages from the MOS Technology data sheet missing the ROR. The Synertek
and Rockwell books from a couple of years later have it, though.
3:10 a.m.
> So, now I happen to own a KIM which I belive is
the real #1
> board. The CPU is a MOS MCS 6502 dated 4675, white ceramic.
Hans, you big show-off ;-)
As such it is
from the very first batch of 6502s, of course
includeing the infamous ROR bug (no, Intel wasn't the first
to sell buggy CPUs :). It ends not just there, but it might
even bee THE first 6502 - or at least the first to be used
in a manufactured computer.
That's a pretty nice little item. I'm curious about this ROR bug - I don't
remember talk of it from the time. Do you know when it was fixed? I happen
to have an OSI 300 (a very primitive 6502 trainer) with a similar CPU
datecoded 4775 on it, I would guess it's buggy too.
3:22 a.m.
> > So, now I happen to own a KIM which I belive
is the real #1
> > board. The CPU is a MOS MCS 6502 dated 4675, white ceramic.
Hans, you big show-off ;-)
:) Well, I had to shrink warp it, since I'm still unable to
stop drooling over the board.
> > As such it is from the very first batch of
6502s, of course
> > includeing the infamous ROR bug (no, Intel wasn't the first
> > to sell buggy CPUs :). It ends not just there, but it might
> > even bee THE first 6502 - or at least the first to be used
> > in a manufactured computer.
That's a
pretty nice little item. I'm curious about this ROR bug - I don't
remember talk of it from the time. Do you know when it was fixed? I happen
to have an OSI 300 (a very primitive 6502 trainer) with a similar CPU
datecoded 4775 on it, I would guess it's buggy too.
According to the Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide (remembering
Commodore bought MOS), which has the full original 6502 instruction set
description in it: "ROR instruction is available on MCS650X microprocessors
after June, 1976."
7921
days inactive
7923
days old
23 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
classiccmp＠vintage-computer.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
glenslick＠hotmail.com -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
jim＠jkearney.com -
jrice54＠charter.net -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
rdd＠rddavis.org -
sloboyko＠yahoo.com -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
tothwolf＠concentric.net