William, What is the end result ? Is it to fix the equipment or to program those parts ? What is the source for the EPROM data ? If it is to fix the equipment, I would suggest using a 27C16 and make the necessary pin adjustments in a homemade carrier ( two 24 pin sockets plugged into each other with the necessary pinout adjustments, i.e. unnecessary address pins tied to ground, etc... ). Looks like a standard JEDEC pinout. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" <eric at brouhaha.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 1:09 PM Subject: Re: Intersil EPROM

Will, If space is tight, you can just bend the appropriate IC pins up over the top and solder wires to ground / Vcc as necessary... and skip the sockets. If space is REALLY tight, I've cut the necessary pins off and run wires along the sides to the stubs. Gotta do this AFTER it is programmed of course ! Good luck. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Intersil EPROM Fix the equipment. I do not know where he has the data from. plugged I understand it is quite a tight fit, and having a carrier with the level converters would be asking too much. -- Will

Chuck Guzis wrote: No. Ratings of 2716 parts may vary somewhat by vendor, but generally all pins other than Vpp have an absolute maximum rating of 6V, and Vpp has an absolute maximum rating of 28V. If the Intersil part is actually being used at 10V, and you wanted to replace it with a 2716, you'd need to add level shifters. Eric

It is 10 Volts, apparently. -- Will

I understand this is a piece of RCA video equipment from the late 1970s, with custom LSI. Perhaps it was designed by one of the guys that was pushing higher voltage CMOS designs of the era. -- Will

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:42 AM, Scanning<steven.alan.canning at verizon.net> wrote: I have one 1802D in a ceramic package. ISTR it will push to 10V (which is required to take it much above 1MHz). You don't have to program a CMOS EPROM at 10V Vcc to use it at 10V Vcc. It's not 10V *only*, it should take any voltage in a wide range (the exact min and max Vcc depends on exactly what family the part is from, but 3V-15V is common). Why wouldn't a 27C64 work? (admittedly, I don't have the data sheet in front of me). You'd have to make a pin swabber for the destination machine, but electrically, it's a "C" part, not an "HCT", so I'd expect it to work at 10V, but the datasheet will say for sure. -ethan

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Philip Pemberton<classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> wrote: There are newer versions of the 1802 that work fine at NTSC colorburst/2, but back in the late 1970s, ISTR the inexpensive CPUs would only work at like 3V-6V and definitely would not work at 3.57...MHz (I know because I tried using just a colorburst crystal and it didn't go), but OTOH, one of the variants (D? E?) was the fastest available, if you pushed it to +10VDC Vcc. Now, I have plenty of 1802 gear running at 1.789MHz and running fine, but with recently made (1990s) CPU chips. It's a great toy. I still have my design/programming notebooks from when I was 11-12 years old, learning assembler on a friend's Elf. His was the Quest Elf board (my first one was, too), but with the TIL311s and the switches offboard, via a 24-pin cable. My Elf (which appears on the Yahoo Groups photo page for 'cosmacelf') is in a 2-piece Radio Shack metal project box, with a compatible connector wired in - I used to use my CPU with his external front panel, and I've never rewired my board for local control. The soldering is bad enough (I was just a kid) that I've long contemplated removing all the parts and the crappy sockets and starting fresh (and installing local switches since I no longer have the external front panel). Of course I could just make an external front panel - I did just find some nice C&K paddle switches Mostly for me, the 1802 was a learning bed - a place to hack stuff at the gate level and to program in machine code in an environment I could single-step through things. I'm happy to have built a "full-blown" Elf2000 and to have helped debug the Z-machine for ElfOS, but that first Quest Elf, way back, was instrumental in learning to understand how microprocessors work. Besides simple counting programs and switch-flipping programs, I never really did much with the 256-byte Elf, but it was still a great machine. -ethan

Ethan Dicks wrote: The fact that there is a "C" in the part number does mean that it's implemented using *a* CMOS process, but it does not mean that it is a CD4000B-compatible CMOS process. The electrical specifications are in fact more similar to 74HCT than CD4000B. None of the common EPROMs, EEPROMs, or flash memory parts are rated for operation above 6V (and most not above 5.5V, and the most recent ones not above 3.6V), even if they have a "C" in the part number. Eric

Ethan, The problem with the original EPROM ( Intersil IM6654 ) is not the Vcc ( 10 Volts, 5 Volts to program ) but that it needs a - 40 VDC to program it. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 7:10 AM Subject: Re: Intersil EPROM On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:42 AM, Scanning<steven.alan.canning at verizon.net> wrote: I have one 1802D in a ceramic package. ISTR it will push to 10V (which is required to take it much above 1MHz). approach. You don't have to program a CMOS EPROM at 10V Vcc to use it at 10V Vcc. It's not 10V *only*, it should take any voltage in a wide range (the exact min and max Vcc depends on exactly what family the part is from, but 3V-15V is common). Why wouldn't a 27C64 work? (admittedly, I don't have the data sheet in front of me). You'd have to make a pin swabber for the destination machine, but electrically, it's a "C" part, not an "HCT", so I'd expect it to work at 10V, but the datasheet will say for sure. -ethan

---------------------------------------- Hi I believe the critical step was self aligning source and drain contacts. Until then, one needed a large gate voltage to get the fields close to the contact diffusion areas. From then on, it has been mostly magic. I work for AMD and help design these things and I know it must be magic. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing? now http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_… bing_1x1

On Jun 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Eric Smith wrote: No, I don't see them in the list. I've never even heard of the NS 5203...What is it? I have a separate programmer for 1702As. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Dave McGuire wrote: The IM6654 datasheet is on DatasheetArchive (www.datasheetarchive.com), first result in a search for "IM6654". All the relevant specs are on the second page of the PDF. They start off pretty normal: - After manufacture or erasure (UV light, 2537 Angstroms, same as just about all UV-erasable chips) all bits are set high. Programming sets bits low. - Vcc and Vdd are tied to +5V. This applies to both the "A" (10V) and "non-A" variants. - A HIGH logic level is Vcc - 2V minimum; a LOW is Vss + 0.8V maximum. - Set the address and data lines to the required values (i.e. set the address for the location you want to program, and put the data byte on the data bus). Keep the PROGRAM and Chip Select (/S) pins high. - The address is latched by a falling edge on /E1. There is, of course, an "odd part": - After latching the address, pulse PROGRAM to -40V (that's NEGATIVE 40V) for 20 milliseconds. - Rise and fall times MUST NOT be faster than 5 microseconds. 10us is the recommended figure. Probably not the easiest thing to homebrew, but not difficult either. There's a "Recommended Algorithm Flowchart" on the third page of the PDF -- what I've described above is just the 'core' of the algorithm. If you have a PDF aversion, here's the rest of it: 1. Read every address in the EPROM (with Vcc=5V). If any bit reads low (programmed), power down, erase the EPROM and start over. 2. Select location to be programmed. 3. Set levels on "Q" data lines. 4. Program, 20ms. 5. Reapply address. 6. Read/Verify. 7. If programmed correctly: 7a. Program same location 4 more times 7b. Read/Verify. OK? 7ba. If OK, repeat from (2) until all addresses programmed. 7bb. If not OK, reject device (FAIL). 8. If not programmed correctly: 8a. Program, 20ms. 8b. Read/Verify. OK? 8ba. If OK, program same address 6 more times, verify, and GOTO (7b) 8bb. If not OK, reject device (FAIL). I'd class this as a small weekend project -- if you had a source of 40V (+/- 2V), 5V, a couple of transistors and a small micro (a PIC or 8051 for instance), you could probably breadboard a programmer in a couple of hours and have the code running by noon Sunday (assuming you started on the Friday night). I'd be very careful to check all the input/output waveforms before putting a chip in, though. Nothing worse than blowing up a rare EPROM, especially if it's your last working chip... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

On Jun 14, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: That company is an *absolute nightmare* to work with. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL