26 Sep
2012
26 Sep
'12
6:15 a.m.
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:10:20 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: new member
<snip>
> I notice
you haven't included any of the 'classic'
wokstations.
<snip>
they are unofficial on my wish-list, but until a hardware emulation
version is made, i'll wait
Why? they are not _that_ large (a calssic PERQ is one of the larger ones,
it's about the size of a 2-draaer deskside cabinet). They are also not
_that_ hard to keep going...
Runniong the rela hardware, at least for me, is the fun part of this
hobby :-)
I enjoy the expanding my computer knowledge,
but I do like seeing, touch classic hardware and show it off to people
> >
<snip>
No, that is a perpetual 'discussion'; here. It only becomes useful when
(as I did), you explain _why_ you consider a particualr machine to desrve
that title.
Even the defintiion of 'computer' is ont always clear (and I do not mean
things like 'The person who operates a calculating machine' which was,
IIRC the original definition). While soem things are clearly computers
and others equally clearly not, there are plenty of borderlien cases...
ok another debate that is unsolvable without of a true definition :)
[...]
>
<snip>
Yes, there are parts? -- mostly transformers and mechancial parts --
which can be hard to fidn for such older mahcines. But often they can be
repaired (transofrmers and motors can be rewound) or made in a good home
workshop
good point
Yes, but working hardware may not stay working. You
will have to fix
things sooner or later. AS I said, there are plenty of people here to
help you, with knowledge of just about every computer ecver made. But
unless we're at _your_ bench, we can't do it all...
I can plug in/remove
boards
but I prefer to out-source my repair work
-tony
tom sparks
26 Sep
26 Sep
7:23 p.m.
Runniong the
real hardware, at least for me, is the fun part of this
hobby :-)
I enjoy the expanding my computer knowledge,
but I do like seeing, touch classic hardware and show it off to people > Even the defintiion of 'computer' is ont
always clear (and I do not mean
[...]
ok another debate that is unsolvable without of a true
definition :)
Exactly. Don't worry about it. I've yet to see any flames resulting from
somebody discussing something that can claim to be a computer or related
device (for example, calculating machines of any type).
Yes, there are
parts? -- mostly transformers and mechancial parts --
which can be hard to find for such older machines. But often they can be
repaired (transofrmers and motors can be rewound) or made in a good home
workshop
good point Yes, but working hardware may not stay working.
You will have to fix
things sooner or later. AS I said, there are plenty of people here to
help you, with knowledge of just about every computer ecver made. But
unless we're at _your_ bench, we can't do it all...
I can plug in/remove
boards but I prefer to out-source my repair work
And you can find people to do it? I am somewhat suprised. People who have
the knowledge to repair classic computers are not that commonm and they
tend to charge accordingly.
OK< I am biased, having bneen fixing classic computers for nearly 30
eyars, but I do feel that if you want ot run the real thing (as opposed
to running emulators) you should learn a little aobut how to repair them
and keep them going. It's nto that hard...
I was taught the old-fashioned method of faultfinding, which has never
let me down. It is to _change nothing_ -- certainly not to swap boards,
etc at random. Just make measurements. Then think about what those
measurements imply about the fault. MAke more measurements if necessary
until you knwo what the fualt is. And then (only then) replace the fualty
part.
-tony
8:25 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I
would _love_ to be
proved wrong :-)).
That's closer than you might think. More than one person has made
diodes and transistors at home, and one person I'm aware of has made a
functional integrated circuit. Granted, a very simple one, and she's
exceptional, but it is NOT impossible.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
27 Sep
27 Sep
12:49 a.m.
On 26/09/2012 21:44, "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I think lots of people would.
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at
home (I would _love_ to be
proved wrong :-)).
You would love Jeri Ellsworth. Her kitchen is well equipped.>
4:38 a.m.
On 09/26/2012 07:49 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
I think lots of people would.
I stand in agreement.
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I
would _love_ to be
proved wrong :-)).
You would love Jeri Ellsworth. Her kitchen is well equipped.> 
26 Sep
26 Sep
10:17 p.m.
On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
What, doesn't everyone have an ion implantation oven next
to their KitchenAid?
- Dave
Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at
home (I would _love_ to be
proved wrong :-)).
That's closer than you might think. More than one person has made
diodes and transistors at home, and one person I'm aware of has made a
functional integrated circuit. Granted, a very simple one, and she's
exceptional, but it is NOT impossible.
27 Sep
27 Sep
1:46 a.m.
On 09/26/2012 05:17 PM, David Riley wrote:
On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
If not, they certainly should!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
What, doesn't everyone have an ion implantation oven next
to their KitchenAid? Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at
home (I would _love_ to be
proved wrong :-)).
That's closer than you might think. More than one person has made
diodes and transistors at home, and one person I'm aware of has made a
functional integrated circuit. Granted, a very simple one, and she's
exceptional, but it is NOT impossible. 
2:08 a.m.
About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man that made transistors
in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist.
Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago...
--
Will
4:41 p.m.
From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man that made transistors
in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist.
Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago...
C: He was? I thought they were doing *that* 60+ years ago.
???? Did he actually think he was saving money as opposed to going to Radio Shack.
5:39 p.m.
> About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man
that made transistors
> in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist.
> Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago...
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: He was? I thought they were doing *that* 60+ years
ago.
Even earlier (Lilienfeld FET in Canada 1925)
Shockley's 1948 Bell Labs stuff wasn't really a basement.
Did he actually think he was saving money as opposed
to going to Radio Shack.
Is that where Radio Shack was buying theirs?
6:53 p.m.
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
> About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man
that made transistors
> in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist.
> Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago...
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: He was? I thought they were doing *that* 60+ years
ago.
Even earlier? (Lilienfeld FET in Canada 1925)
C: I don't know. Canadians seem to bat 1,000 when it comes to innovation. I think
I'm becoming jealous here.
???? I'm probably not the first one on the list to be informed of this. Why all the
hubbub over Shockley then???
Shockley's 1948 Bell Labs stuff wasn't really a basement.
C: Sorry. I meant crawl space.
Did he actually think he was saving money as opposed
to going to Radio Shack.
Is that where Radio Shack was buying theirs?
C: From him? Directly? Is he up to date on his tax payments?
8:14 p.m.
On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Because Shockley (and his massive employer) commercialized it and made
the transistor an everyday thing because they were the phone company.
Money buys you a lot of history; ask Andrew Carnegie.
- Dave
> About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a
man that made transistors
> in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist.
> Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago...
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: He was? I thought they were doing *that* 60+
years ago.
Even earlier (Lilienfeld FET in Canada 1925)
C: I don't know. Canadians seem to bat 1,000 when it comes to innovation. I think
I'm becoming jealous here.
I'm probably not the first one on the list to be informed of this. Why all the
hubbub over Shockley then???
9:10 p.m.
> Even earlier? (Lilienfeld FET in Canada 1925)
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: I'm probably not the first one on the list to
be informed of
this. Why all the hubbub over Shockley then???
different kinds of transistors. Some are easier to invent than others.
> Shockley's 1948 Bell Labs stuff wasn't
really a basement.
C: Sorry. I meant crawl space.
I didn't know
that Bell Labs had any crawl spaces!
Later in life, he did some social writing that impklies that there might
have been inadequate ventilation!
Is that where
Radio Shack was buying theirs?
C: From him? Directly? Is he up to date on his tax
payments?
8:34 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
RIght. From this and other replies I see it's a lot more possible than I
thought. Until then I'd only seen referecnes to relatively poor
semiconductor drvices made at home (point contact diodes, copper oxide
transsitors).
As I have said in the past : 'Never underestimate waht a hobbyist can do'.
-tony
Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at
home (I would _love_ to be
proved wrong :-)).
That's closer than you might think. More than one person has made 
26 Sep
26 Sep
10:20 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:23:50 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I
would _love_ to be
proved wrong :-)).
Jeri Ellsworth made her own ICs:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/sets/72157607161498665/
http://vimeo.com/channels/26257
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
4:47 p.m.
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote:
Jeri Ellsworth made her own ICs:
But not a microprocessor.? Yet.
If she were to have been on the SOAR (SmallTalk On A Risc) project, think
about what we might be using now!
C: But she's utilizing old world technologies, homemade furnaces and whatnot. She has
an intrepid nature I grant, and my hats off to her. But it stands to be seen whether
she'll break new ground. You need people who will think out of the box, and the
emphasis is on *thinking*. You're not going to come up w/anything new unless
you're mired in those lines of thinking.
?I had an instructor in college who was very depressed. He said since the laser and
transistor nothing new has been invented. Only shrunken down, or made cheaper to
manufacture. Some "older" particle physicists bemoan the concentration on avant
garde theories having to do w/strings and whatnot, stuff that largely lacks falsification
criteria. People go where there's the hype, and don't want to get their hands
dirty so to speak.
7:31 p.m.
On 09/27/2012 11:47 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: But she's utilizing old world technologies,
homemade furnaces and
whatnot.
So if something is home-made, it's "old world"? No.
Further, there's a commercial furnace on her workbench in those
photos. There's very little that's home-made there. (except her chips
of course)
She has an intrepid nature I grant, and my hats off to
her.
But it stands to be seen whether she'll break new ground.
She HAS broken new ground...she's made transistors and integrated
circuits in a home lab. As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor
physics, well, that's not the goal. Even she doesn't have enough
funding for that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
9:04 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
She HAS broken new ground...she's made
transistors and integrated
circuits in a home lab. As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor
physics, well, that's not the goal. Even she doesn't have enough
funding for that.
THAT is a shame.
Howzbout: since I don't think that any of us have deep pockets, perhaps if
each of us would make bequests in our wills?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:52 p.m.
On 9/27/2012 12:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
She HAS broken new ground...she's made
transistors and integrated
circuits in a home lab. As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor
physics, well, that's not the goal. Even she doesn't have enough
funding for that.
It is normally new ideas, not newer devices that break new ground.
-Dave
28 Sep
28 Sep
6:27 p.m.
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
On 09/27/2012 11:47 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: But she's utilizing old world technologies,
homemade furnaces and
whatnot.
? So if something is home-made, it's "old world"?? No.
C: In a manner of speaking. Whether it's homemade or commercially made in this case
there isn't much difference. If a person were to say build a lathe, even if it was
from castings (far more difficult to melt iron then whatever she's heating in her
unit/s), it's kind of old world - that's how they did it 100-400 years ago. If a
manufacturer were to market a lathe, using the latest alloys, finite element analysis,
etc. etc., it ain't old world anymore.
? Further, there's a commercial furnace on her workbench in those photos.? There's
very little that's home-made there. (except her chips of course)
C: I'd have to look. If it has newer bells and whistles, current monitoring,
pyrometer, etc., ok it's no longer old world. But the guts of the furnace still are
likely, unless it was made of fancy Ytong blocks or something.
She has an intrepid nature I grant, and my hats off to
her.
But it stands to be seen whether she'll break new ground.
? She HAS broken new ground...she's made transistors and integrated circuits in a home
lab.? As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor physics, well, that's not the
goal.? Even she doesn't have enough funding for that.
C: So her methods are all that different from the way the first experimental transistors
or fets were made? Something tells me no. Being that this knowledge has been around for a
long time, it's hard to see how she's breaking ground. It's still a transistor
after all.
?These "kids" coming up with, in a manner of speaking only, innovation, is
fantastic. I'm not knocking it. But is it really new at all?
? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:10 p.m.
On 09/28/2012 01:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Yes! A person built transistors and ICs in their home. Is the
impact of that really lost on you? Seriously?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Further, there's a commercial furnace on her
workbench in those photos. There's very little that's home-made there. (except
her chips of course)
C: I'd have to look. If it has newer bells and whistles, current monitoring,
pyrometer, etc., ok it's no longer old world. But the guts of the furnace still are
likely, unless it was made of fancy Ytong blocks or something.
You are giving off the impression that to be involved in serious
work, a piece of equipment has to be brand new and full of whiz-bang
bells and whistles. If you ARE in fact under this impression, I suggest
you visit a few working labs. This really isn't how things are.
It's also not the case that "home" automatically means "old
discarded
garbage". Some people are willing to invest in quality tools, as I'm
sure you are quite aware.
She has an
intrepid nature I grant, and my hats off to her.
But it stands to be seen whether she'll break new ground.
She HAS broken new ground...she's made transistors and integrated circuits in a
home lab. As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor physics, well, that's not
the goal. Even she doesn't have enough funding for that.
C: So her methods are all that different from the way the first experimental transistors
or fets were made? Something tells me no. Being that this knowledge has been around for a
long time, it's hard to see how she's breaking ground. It's still a transistor
after all.
These "kids" coming up with, in a manner of speaking only, innovation, is
fantastic. I'm not knocking it. But is it really new at all? 
26 Sep
26 Sep
10:22 p.m.
Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote:
Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to
be proved wrong :-)). Transiotrs, doidoes and other discretes often
have suitable substitutes still available. Standard ICs are likely to
be avaialble somewhere even if no longer made. Custom ICs are a pain!
Does this count:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmotkjMSKnI
?
27 Sep
27 Sep
4:24 p.m.
From: "arcarlini at iee.org" <arcarlini at iee.org>
Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote:
Does this count:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmotkjMSKnI
?
C: Absolutely. And although I already knew about her (most people do) thanks for directing
me to her videos.
4256
days inactive
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25 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
arcarlini＠iee.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
rampaginggreenhulk＠yahoo.com -
tom_a_sparks＠yahoo.com.au -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk