On 12/05/2014 09:42, Dave wrote: I see the PDP-8 is 2.6 microseconds but for 12 bits so hard to compare, however easily 10x faster for simple operations...

On 12/05/2014 07:21, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: Sadly I am but a volunteer...... ... on the other hand with the displayed history it doesn't fit with the Museums current collections policy, which is objects should have a connection with Northwest England. I assume it came from a local business, college or university, and I was intending to investigate on Tuesday. However if and when it is disposed of I am pretty sure it will got to another UK Museum....

On 12/05/2014 09:35, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: I don't remember seeing that when am I there..... I guess you are also in East Pondia...

Maybe it is time I called myself a museum, at least they wouldn't have to ship it very far.... I might estimated ferry

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 10:15:58AM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: I've gotten the impression that it is frowned uppon. At the very least, one musuem I talked to doesn't want to give away things willy-nilly because it might scare away donators of objects. I suppose many donators give to museums because they know the object ends up in good hands, not to someone who will turn around and sell it for profit. If you have a different experience, i'd like to hear about it. /P

On 5/13/14 2:26 AM, Dave wrote: It went to another museum, EXACTLY what is SUPPOSED to happen with artifacts placed into a public trust. There is a formal accessioning and deacessioning process that museums have to go through for any artifact in a collection. If an artifact is redundant, in poor condition, or is out of scope, the institution can de-acession something in its collection but the process is not simple, and they have to make an effort to try to offer it to another museum. A collector cold-calling a museum wanting to buy an artifact only irritates the person you contact. And just to make it clear, the Computer History Museum has a policy that NOTHING offered or in our collection is EVER sold. The Computer Museum had a different policy, and had artifacts in their gift shop, we do not. Please DO NOT contact CHM about trying to buy physical objects.

On 05/13/2014 12:47 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: Yeah. I have seen really cool stuff disappear from there.

That means? Everything that ever arrives at CHM will never leave again? I personally do not like "black hole policies". They mean that the CHM wouldn't even help out a collector like me with a spare part it would never need again... Or did I get it wrong? (Would be cool) Kind regards Philipp

Or donate it to said museum... On 14 May 2014 16:54, Jason Scott <jason at textfiles.com> wrote: -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way "

(Aside..) This is one of the things I really like about the Pavek Radio Museum. The folks who run the place "openly" run a garage sale sort of event once every year or few, and sell off stuff that just doesn't make the grade, is already well-represented, or just shouldn't be there in the first place. I've picked up a few nice little odds & ends there over the years. Best part, is that if you call them up needing a piece of information, a set of documentation or even the odd part for this or that old piece of electronics, they might just be able to help you.. and if you're patient, they will try. And no black hole policies, as far as I know. They just seem to know what to keep and what to pass along.. it's not as if they have unlimited space, I'd say that at least 75% of the facility is devoted to exhibits. They may well have off-site storage, though - wouldn't know. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 8:19 AM, R SMALLWOOD <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com>wrote:

On 15/05/14 9:19 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: That is not entirely fair. The best museums will preserve their pieces for 500, 1000 years hence (and hopefully longer). Most people are thinking in shorter timeframes, indeed they are usually shortchanging their own children. --Toby

On 15/05/14 10:25 PM, Mouse wrote: Ask that question of any institution that has preserved 500+ year old artefacts that you've enjoyed. :) The aspiration is worthwhile, isn't it? I don't think all museums act in line with it, though (as I posted about). --Toby

On 16/05/14 12:01 PM, Mouse wrote: More than a few Europeans live in 500 year old _houses_, and 1000 year old cities. So yes, that's probably the difference in perception. --Toby

On 17/05/2014 19:44, Tony Duell wrote: My eldest Son attended Oxford and played in Merton College Big Band who play in Merton College Chapel. This apparently dates from the 1280's and so is older than Machu Picchu from whence I have recently returned. It doesn't feel right! (also not a good venue for Big Band, too long an echo). Dave G4UGM

[Museums preserving for the future] Not when it becomes Now : We can't run this machine becuase it might get damaged and we won't ahve it for the fuuture Now + 50 years : We can't run that machine, it is even more fagile nowm, and we have to keep it for the future Now + 100 years : Ditto Now + 200 ywars : We can't run that machine, some part has failed and there is no way we could get or make a replaciement. I guess that's fiar i nthat nobody gets to see the machine running, but it does seem like hte wrong answer... -tony

Alas yes. But then the same thing will ahppen to private collections, the owner will have died long before that. FWIW, I've disagreed with Mr Donzelli on lots of matters, but I do agree with him that _everybody_ should make a will. That way, their machines re hopefully presereved (and I would hope that the chap who receives them similarly makes a will, and so on). Incidentally, I mentioned in an easrlier message that one thing I wanted to do with the Telecopier in the msueum was see inside the telephone line interface. Somebody, I forget who, said that this might be difficult if that machine had been in the MOSI collection. Which leads me to ask,'What is the point in preserving these machines for future generations if there is no way for people to examine them and thus get information about them'. -tony

Sure, I can fully understand why they'd want to do that. Actually, I didn't want to do anything. I was happy for their staff to do all the work. I could tell them what I wanted them to do (that is, undo the screws o nthe top cover of said line transformer unit), lift off the cover and either let me see inside, or take photos of the insides. Of ocurse if they'd preferd it for me to take the unit apart I would ahve been happy to go to the museum to do so. Since removing this cover is soemthing that is described in the service manual (which seems ot be a 'field service' manual) with no special precautions mentioned against damage, I don't think there would be much risk. This would not apply to, say, dismantling the optical block which is not described in said manual and whoch practical experience suggests is a right pain to re-align. Don't ask... -tony

Whilst all my foregoing remarks apply to no longer made or in use hardware there is a good case for what I would call reproductions. Certainly in the DEC world I inhabit there are lots of software emulations of PDP systems. ?I have also seen full size models of old systems.? So lets take a classic, say a PDP8/e. Imagine if you will something that looks exactly like an 8/e.? Same size box, same lights and switches same front panel.? Look inside and behold just one small PCB doing the work of the dozen or so cards in the original item. In its simplest form just to be able to toggle in a simple program and run it would be nice.? Its what you might call a hard and software simulator ? Whilst I think about it I'm looking for the following: KA660 CPU card for a VAX 4000-200 (The on board ethernet has failed) A plugin PSU unit for a VAX 4000-500?(starts up and then shuts down) ? ? ? ? Some one in the UK with an??8/e I could do some board swaps with to isolate a memory r/w problem ? ? ? ? Its not the core but somewhere in the CPU board set. ________________________________ From: TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, 17 May 2014, 1:07 Subject: Re: Buying something from a museum (was Re: Whats in a straight 8 PDP-8) The masses don't give a crap about how core memory works now nor will they in 200 years. The artifacts are important to researchers about how things were done in the past. Museums are for preservation of historical items intact and the museums that are still around show select items the masses would like just to get funding to keep the lights on and to snag new stuff. The real interesting stuff is in a back room waiting for somebody doing research to need to take a look at it or run a non destructive test on it. Egyptian mummies bring in quite a bit of money to museums when people come to look at them (well a select portion of what the museum has and not even the most interesting items just the flashy stuff). The medial people of their day 1800's would not have thought twice about cutting those mummies open and poking around ruining them for everyone else. But they kept some intact and a 100 years later there are tools to look at them inside out without disturbing them for later generations. I expect computers from the future will either not exist at all (collapse of society)? or will be quite different from what we have today (whole systems in one small chip that runs off body heat and interface directly to your brain maybe). Researchers will be able to scan those old massively huge chips and see what's going on at the atomic layer and create a simulator to run the system. BIOS dumps and software code (even just printouts or examples) will be enough to make sure they have the thing emulated correctly. Nobody is really going to want to run VisiCalc on a real Apple II 200 years from now, they just want to know what tools were used that allowed humans to get to the moon a few decades after they figured out how to get off the ground and fly without crashing. Museums are great for preserving the old analog computers (used for making designs in carpets, targeting the guns of a battleship, etc.) that can be simple or very complex but easy to preserve. -----Original Message----- From: Mouse Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 10:25 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Buying something from a museum (was Re: Whats in a straight 8 PDP-8) But if their attitude towards those who want to see them is the same in 500 years as it is now - and I see no reason to think it won't be - then how much point is, really, there in that preservation? /~\ The ASCII? Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X? Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email!? ? ? 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39? 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

I disagree. It would be impossible IMHO to preserve a computer for 500 yaars. ICs will fail whether powered up or not. EPROMs will suffere from bit rot. Although it pains me o say it, if you want to preserve a particular machine for 500 eyars, you pretty much ahve ot use the emulator and hope tthere is ome way to run that in the future. Alas too many museums (at least over here) use the conservation methods for fine art on techncual artefacts. IMHO said methods are not appropriate for soemthign where the visual appearance is not the most important factor. Given that failure of an unreplacaable component, like a custom IC, doens;'t change the appearance of a machine in most cases, it would seem to be better to run them now, while iti is still possible, and then to preserve the remains when something fails that can't then be repaired (it may be possible to repair it in the future), rather than not run it now, have it fail anyway, and still have soemthing that may or may not be able to be repaired. To ru nit now doesn't seem to lose you anything. -tony

On May 16, 2014, at 11:05 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote: Well, a computer is a digital mechanism. So is a clock. And clocks can certainly be kept working for hundreds of years. Not to mention the work of the Long Now foundation, which aims to push that to thousands of years. Interesting notion ? a Long Now computer design. paul

On 17/05/14 2:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: I am not saying don't run it, either. --Toby

Well having started in 1971 with a paper tape PDP8/e and just retired after forty years in the IT industry I think I have seen a lot if not everything. In the beginning there were few or no old systems to collect. If you don't like the term museum, then lets call them public collections.? As with many things the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The idea that you could retain important items and add to your hoard whilst passing it off as for the public good must have taken awhile to emerge. But undeniably these organisations do acquire items and simply store them with no intention of restoring or displaying them. This one way traffic does nothing to document modern industrial history. So I say give to these pathetic squirrels if you must but make sure they confirm in writing what they intend to do with the item. Rod ________________________________ From: Jason Scott <jason at textfiles.com> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, 16 May 2014, 11:29 Subject: Re: Buying something from a museum (was Re: Whats in a straight 8 PDP-8) Adorably bitter, Smallwood. The term "museum" is kind of like the term "company" or "charity". It has a lot of organizations that have the term, with different approaches, different rules, and different experiences dealing with them. Talking like an ebay seller who once got jagged on shipping doesn't really capture the spectrum of what's out there. I deal with museums and archives constantly - some are good and get my attention (and items) and some are not so good and get neither. It's a big world, take a walk in it. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:19 AM, R SMALLWOOD <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com>wrote:

Certainly many UK museusm do have a 'black hole policy' as you put it. And this is one reason (the main reason) why I will not donate anything to a museum. I would rather my machines get used and enjoyed than sit i na museum store soemwhere. Incidentaly, my expeirence suggests that msueums have a similar policy with information. I have never had a useful reply to a quesiton from _any_ UK museum (not jsut comptuer ones). Perhaps I've been unlucky, but I find private colelctors a lot more helpful. -tony

people I re- happy to http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/archivedisplay.php?irn=331 That link says there are tapes there. It would certainly be worth checking if they contain anything unique. Would the museum let you try to get the tapes read to recover the contents? Regards Rob

I don't know to what extent it's relevant, but, tony, you should realize that you are enough of a fount of knowledge yourself that by the time _you_ have a question to ask, it's possible the number of people on the planet knowing the answer can be counted on one hand. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

On 15/05/2014 21:46, Tony Duell wrote: I am pretty sure if the machine was in MOSI and in accessible storage that would be possible. Many items are in in-accessible storage....which is a different kettle of fish... .. but I can't see one in the on-line search You can check out what documentation MOSI has on the web site... That might be harder, depending on what needed to be opened... I know the feeling, although my pet hate is documentation and research papers. The British Computing Society no longer has a library or access to any of the other major libraries, IBM journals are not available as individual items etc etc. Any suggestions?

I did state 'UK museums', which excludes Al. I agree he has been very helpful with information over the years. My experience is tht UK musuems are much mroe touchy about copyright and are less likely to allow you to make copies of docuemtnes they own. Incidentalyl, one of my books on clock repairing makes a comment like 'Museums are gret if you want to see a TOmpion or a Knibbs. But never donate anythign to one. It'll get stuck in storage and will never been seen again. Much better to let somebody ejoy it'. I susepct this has coloured my judgement of computer museums too. -tony

On 13/05/14 11:56 AM, Al Kossow wrote: What compels them to do that? Does that include given away? --Toby

On 14/05/14 10:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: The (major city) Museum I was talking to in Australia had at times "de-accessioned" in exactly this way, I heard, which is a big reason why I withdrew my equipment from consideration. --Toby

On 13/05/14 12:58 PM, John Wilson wrote: Agreed. I went through the accession process with a Lisa with a major museum but by the end of it I was so dissatisfied with their assurances it wouldn't just sit in a basement or be disposed of that I decided it had a better future with me. --Toby

I doubt that any "real" museum would be willing to accept any donation under such conditions. Generally they'll only accept donations with no strings attached. Even with objects provided on "indefinite loan" rather than donated, they usually won't accept conditions. I imagine that if a museum wanted something badly enough, that things might be different, but it would have to be something *far* more rare than e.g. a PDP-8.