20 Feb
2000
20 Feb
'00
3:41 a.m.
Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop
kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same,
here are my picks for the list:
Postion Laptop
1. TRS-80 Model 100
2. TRS-80 Model 200
(In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable
(In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000
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20 Feb
20 Feb
5:05 a.m.
At 05:41 PM 2/20/00 +0000, you wrote:
Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list
of the best laptop
kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same,
here are my picks for the list:
Postion Laptop
1. TRS-80 Model 100
Absolutely! I second the above. Never used a 200, but my 100 still does
duty as
a cheap, lowpower packet console from time-to-time. It has ALWAYS been my
favorite
portable kb unit. I tried a couple of cast-off PC clones (an old compac
386-something)
and a Toshiba T-1000, but in spite of the computational short-comings of
the M100,
it still ranks #1 for me for comfort of use.
2. TRS-80 Model 200
(In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable
(In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000
I've also done some time on the T-1000 (the floppy-only 8088 unit with
640k) and
it's certainly better than average. By comparison, my last two laptops
were NEC
Versa 6050mx boxes. Wore one out and bought a "factory reconditioned" unit
a couple
of years ago. Wouldn't you know it: the second unit had the same
faults. Keyboard
that gets "sticky" after a few months. Case cracks in about three stress
points.
Soldered components coming "unsoldered" (they used some kind of really soft
solder in the 6050 and connectors and components just "rock loose" after being
stressed by case flexing.)
Basically most new (last 4 years) laptops have marginal keyboards and
seemed to be
designed to die shortly after their (usually short) warranty runs out.
-Gary
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7:02 a.m.
Basically most new (last 4 years) laptops have marginal
keyboards and
seemed to be
designed to die shortly after their (usually short) warranty runs out.
Isn't that most keyboards? I've gotten a couple new PC keyboards in the
last 2-3 years, both have been tossed, and I'm using a 10 year old
101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both
the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and
ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter.
I've been buying laptops since '87, when I was in the Navy, that's normally
all I had room for. The Kaypro 2000 I got in '87 had the best keyboard.
The Twinhead in '90 really sucked, so did the P90 in '95, the Apple
PowerBook 520c, also in '95 was the best I've gotten since the Twinhead.
I've since replaced that with the PowerBook 540c as the 520c screen died,
and it was cheaper to get the 540c with an Active Matrix screen than it was
to get a replacement for the 520c's Passive Matrix screen, anyway the 540c
has the same decent keyboard.
One nice feature I've not seen since the Kaypro and Twinhead is the
detachable keyboard, of course only the Kaypro had true keys.
Gotta agree about the comment on the early Toshiba's, at least the T5200
and prior all had great keyboards!
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
12:43 p.m.
101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the
same way, toss both
the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and
ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter.
Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards
though have some "following", ie different people think different models
are the best.
2:14 p.m.
The best keyboard ever invented is on the ThinkPad 770. Period.
And I've been using keyboards of all types since 1959.
-Mike
On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
101-keyboard
with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both
the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and
ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter.
Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards
though have some "following", ie different people think different models
are the best. 
11:49 p.m.
Reminds me of that Dilbert cartoon where his wife accuses him of loving
his computer more than her, to which he responds, "I do not love *this*
computer more than you," and thinking, "Don't ask about the laptop,
don't
ask about the laptop..."
Aaron
On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
The best
keyboard ever invented is on the ThinkPad 770. Period.
Maybe so, but I don't get to touch my wife's 770. She seems to like it, too
much. ;)
21 Feb
21 Feb
8:17 a.m.
101-keyboard
with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both
the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and
ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter.
Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards
though have some "following", ie different people think different models
are the best.
9:14 a.m.
I think that $*#_)* USB atrocity is the one exception
to this :^) Well, I
have heard of one or two people liking it, but on the G4 list I'm on almost
everyone wants to replace it. It took me a couple of hellish days to get
the ADB-to-USB converter <shudder>.
The other real popular Apple keyboard seems to be the 'adjustable' one.
I've got to admit to being rather partial to the old tiny ADB keyboard for
the Apple //gs, although since I got one, it's never been on a //gs :^)
Works great for Mac's though!
USB is a force from PCville that could not be avoided for marketing
reasons. Steve Jobs loved it because it makes people buy new equipment. I
"know" I will use it, but I am not paying a premium to get in line anytime
soon.
BTW that the Apple Ergonomic keyboard, which sold originally for about
$450, but to karpal tunnel suffers is well worth the cost. Every single one
I have found in the used market has had some bad or sticky keys, so it
doesn't rise up too far on my personal list of keyboards.
The IIgs was actually the first ADB apple product IIRC. Very popular
keyboard, mostly I think because of its small size, but some like the
highly sculpted key caps too. Here is a little keyboard info
Apple extended keyboard II model 3501
Apple ADB mouse model G5431, rectangle, my old favorite
Apple keyboard model M0116, much more compact
Apple extended Keyboard model M0115
Apple adjustable keyboard with keypad model M1242
The IIgs was numbered differently, something like 658-4250 (I could just
look, as I must have 10 of every known apple keyboard except the ergonomic).
3:44 p.m.
Date sent: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:17:16 -0800
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
The other real popular Apple keyboard seems to be the
'adjustable' one.
I've got to admit to being rather partial to the old tiny ADB keyboard for
the Apple //gs, although since I got one, it's never been on a //gs :^)
Works great for Mac's though!
Zane
Amen! Mine is plugged into my PM 9500 right now, and I love the
feel. Plus, it's just so darn cute.... :o)
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
20 Feb
20 Feb
5:10 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:41:06PM +0000, David Vohs wrote:
Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten
list of the best laptop
kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same,
here are my picks for the list:
Postion Laptop
1. TRS-80 Model 100
2. TRS-80 Model 200
(In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable
(In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000
I'd actually say "Any old Toshiba" in place of the T-1000; I've got a
couple
of the older Toshiba 3xxx series with the orange/red plasma display that I
use as console terminals, since the keyboards are so nice.
My GRiD laptop also has a very nice keyboard.
Bill
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+----------------+-------------------+-----------------------+----------+
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| However, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap them. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
21 Feb
21 Feb
3:10 a.m.
On 20-Feb-00 David Vohs wrote:
Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten
list of the best laptop
kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the
same,
here are my picks for the list:
Postion Laptop
1. TRS-80 Model 100
Hear hear!
2. TRS-80 Model 200
(In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable
(In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000
I used a T-1100 extensively in 1992 while I was in Bolivia. I don't
remember a particular fondness for the keyboard. However, this was back
before keyboards started to suck, so maybe I wasn't as alert to keyboard
feel.
BTW : what *is* it about keyboards these days? I use a 5 year old
keytronics keyboard. The K, L, N and M keys now lack letters (right
handed guitarist with long fingernails). I've thought of replacing it,
but none of the keyboards I try have the same hard feel. They all feel
wishy-washy. I'm currently concidering a (not classic) happy hacking
keyboard, but wish I could try one out first.
-Philip
5:42 a.m.
Hi Philip,
BTW : what *is* it about keyboards these days?....
....none of the keyboards I try have the same hard feel. They
all feel wishy-washy....
They're made to be CHEAP and disposable these days. :-(
My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones, they have a nice feel and
"clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985 vintage, 84
key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the left hand end,
where they should be).
TTFN - Pete.
--
Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
peter.pachla(a)wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk
--
1:30 p.m.
On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote:
My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones, they
have a nice feel and
"clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985 vintage, 84
key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the left hand end,
where they should be).
Me too but I like the function keys along the top. No point in having
a preference that's so hard to find in modern keyboards; sometimes I get
stuck using other types besides my IBM's (although I do have extras so
I can use one at work and one at every extra computer around the house).
Now that we are using Sun Ultra 5's at work though, it's really annoying
in that the caps lock and control are reversed, and backspace is one row
down where the backslash is on my IBM. Those choices make more sense from
an ergonmics point of view but I wish I could be more consistent. Maybe
have to see about getting Linux to swap them for me at home.
There is an adapter for something like $70 that lets you hook up a PC
keyboard to a Sun but that's kindof spendy. Makes me wonder if one couldn't
program up a PIC to be a universal keyboard adapter - XT, AT, Sun and ADB.
(and a few others people will think of a need for, I'm sure...at least
3 of the above use TTL signalling, but I'm not sure about ADB)
The modern Sun keyboards are also too mushy.
--
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(_ | |_) ecloud(a)bigfoot.com finger rutledge(a)cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com
__) | | \__________________________________________________________________
3:39 p.m.
Date sent: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:30:40 -0700
From: "Shawn T. Rutledge"
<rutledge(a)cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000, Peter Pachla
wrote:
I agree on the IBM keyboards. I'm a Mac guy, but I also use wintel
boxen and nothing feels like a good, solid, cast-metal-frame IBM
keyboard. I've gotten used to Evilsoft Naturals, but really wish
they'd use the same keyswitch mechanism that IBM used instead
of the rubber dome thingy.
I did CAD for 5 years, and the older program we used before
AutoCAD had most of the major editing functions mapped to fn
keys. My keyboard had them arranged on the left, and I became
very proficient that way. My left hand knew what functions I needed
without even looking, and I could invoke most drawing commands
My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones,
they have a nice feel
and "clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985
vintage, 84 key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the
left hand end, where they should be).
Me too but I like the function keys along the top. No point in having a
preference that's so hard to find in modern keyboards; sometimes I get
stuck using other types besides my IBM's (although I do have extras so I
can use one at work and one at every extra computer around the house).
from the command line. Took me quite a while to
untrain my hand
when we switched to AutoCAD and I couldn't replilcate the
mappings.
Right now, I'm using a good ol' IBM clicker as a remote control for
my Sony Minidisc deck here in my little studio. Sony put a PS/2
plug on the front for titling and remote control functions, evidently
after the realization that most guys hacked their own plug in
anyway.....
And for laptops, my vote is for ThinkPads. The keyboard on the
NEC Versa 4230 I used to used was probably the worst one ever
made. Almost made typing on an Atari 400 fun......my ThinkPad
760xl has a crisp, clean, postive feel to it.
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
22 Feb
22 Feb
2:55 a.m.
Hi Paul,
....I'm a Mac guy, but I also use wintel boxen and
nothing feels
like a good, solid, cast-metal-frame IBM keyboard....
Actually, now you mention it, I really liked the old keyboards which Apple
shipped with the Mac Plus and earlier.
The only criticism I'd level at them would be that they don't "click"
and
the key travel is a bit long. But nice nevertheless.
And one of the worst keyboards I've ever used is the standard ADB keyboard I
got with my "Classic II". "Yuck" just doesn't cover it....I can
see why
people quickly switched to the extended keyboards.
....My left hand knew what functions I needed without
even
looking....
Absolutely, I can operate the function keys on my 84 key keyboard with my
left hand without even thinking about it. With them arranged along the top I
have to make a concious decision to use the apt key, and then take my hand
off the main part of the keyboard to operate the keys....which REALLY
disturbs my rhythm when I'm using the machine.
I also dislike IBM's (and most other manufacturer's) practice of putting the
"Caps Lock" key where "Ctrl" belongs on these keyboards - personally,
I can
live without "Caps Lock" at all thankyou. Not to mention their insistance on
putting "Esc" on the same row as the "F" keys, sigh, "Esc"
lives next to the
"1" key or, at worst, in the top left corner of the numeric keypad.... :-(
Not that I'm fussy or anything. ;-)
And for laptops, my vote is for ThinkPads....
I've not used very many laptop keyboards. I do like the keyboard on my
Toshiba T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller PCB) and the
one on the Tandy 1400LT I used to own was "OK".
....The keyboard on the NEC Versa 4230 I used to used
was
probably the worst one ever made....
My vote would go for the keyboard on my Olivetti M15....foul, the only good
thing about it is that you can take it out of the main unit and position it
where/how you like.
....Almost made typing on an Atari 400 fun....
Yes, less than a month after I got it my Atari 400 was sporting an "InHome"
replacement keyboard....and it still works fine today (despite having coffee
spilt in it some 14 years ago).
TTFN - Pete.
--
Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
peter.pachla(a)wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk
--
6:35 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 04:55:05PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote:
putting "Esc" on the same row as the
"F" keys, sigh, "Esc" lives next to the
"1" key or, at worst, in the top left corner of the numeric keypad.... :-(
ESC should definitely be on the left. With it on the far upper left, isolated
all by itself, the advantage is you can just reach up in the general direction
and not have to worry about hitting anything else; whereas if it's next to
the "1" it's not as far a reach in the first place.
--
_______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud
(_ | |_) ecloud(a)bigfoot.com finger rutledge(a)cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com
__) | | \__________________________________________________________________
28 Feb
28 Feb
3:07 a.m.
Hi,
ESC should definitely be on the left....
....whereas if it's next to the "1" it's not as far a
reach in the first place.
I kind of like it situated next to the "1", but I suppose that's because
most of the systems/terminals I've used over the years had it there.
Actually, having it at the top left corner of the numeric pad is
surprisingly handy. My 84-key AT keyboard has it there, I didn't like it at
first but soon got to appreciate it's presence there. :-)
TTFN - Pete.
--
Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
peter.pachla(a)wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk
--
22 Feb
22 Feb
1:55 p.m.
From: "Peter Pachla" <peter.pachla(a)wintermute.org.uk
Actually, now you mention it, I really liked the old
keyboards which Apple
shipped with the Mac Plus and earlier.
I guess it's personal preference, but I don't like the 128/Plus
keyboards as much. Felt sorta weird to me.
And one of the worst keyboards I've ever used is the standard ADB keyboard
I got with my "Classic II". "Yuck" just doesn't cover it....I can
see why
people quickly switched to the extended keyboards.
Amen to that. And I'm still not that fond of the extended boards. I
use the IIgs board on my 9500, I have a Datadesk 101e on my
8500 (nice clicky microswitches) and I use an Apple Keyboard II on
my DuoDock. When I get my office rearranged, the 8500 will get
the Ergo, the Duo will get the Datadesk, and the 7200 will get the
KBII. I'll move the Extended to the SE/30.
Absolutely, I can operate the function keys on my 84
key keyboard with my
left hand without even thinking about it. With them arranged along the top
I have to make a concious decision to use the apt key, and then take my
hand off the main part of the keyboard to operate the keys....which REALLY
disturbs my rhythm when I'm using the machine.
They tried to give me a new keyboard once, and I threw a tantrum
until they let me keep the old one. We switched to Evil$soft
Naturals a couple of years later, which was fine except that
keyboard shortcuts that I could type with one hand now required
unnatural reaches from one half to the other....now that I'm out of
cad and into IT, it's ergo all the way. Just wish they used better
keys instead of rubber domes.
I've not used very many laptop keyboards. I do
like the keyboard on my
Toshiba T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller
PCB)
I just scrapped one at work, but it wouldn't have helped you any. I
tried to power it up for fun, and nothing but the smell of previously
toasted electronics. Keyboard was sort of busted up also....
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
28 Feb
28 Feb
3:48 a.m.
Hi Paul,
Yep, from what I've been able to find out the power controller is notorious
for failing in these machines. And you don't want to know what Toshiba want
for a replacement board....
Unfortunately I don't have the schematics and since it uses several
proprietary Toshiba chips (at least two MCUs I understand) I can't really
make much of a stab at fixing it....not to mention that it's mostly SMD
technology.... :-(
TTFN - Pete.
--
Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
peter.pachla(a)wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk
--
I guess it's personal preference, but I don't
like the
128/Plus keyboards as much. Felt sorta weird to me.
IKWYM, the keys seem to travel an awful long way before they register. Might
be my typing style, but my fingers start aching after I've used the keyboard
for a while.
I still quite like it though for some reason....
....And I'm still not that fond of the extended
boards....
I've only used one a few times on a friend's machine. Seemed OK.
Probably my only criticism was that the keys didn't travel far enough....
:-))
I know....I tend to judge all keyboards by my trusty 1985 AT keyboard
nowadays....
....Toshiba
T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller
PCB)
....but it wouldn't have helped you any. I tried to power it up for
fun, and nothing but the smell of previously toasted electronics.... 
22 Feb
22 Feb
4:35 a.m.
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4:55 a.m.
Hi!
I'm banging on 8 years old 101key model M keyboard plugged into 1
year old machine. My bench stuff has this keyboard too. And 4 more
for parts plus 1 spacesaver modified to have LEDs. Keytronics is
sorta ok. Thinkpads of most models.
What about Logitech keyboards?
What I prefer:
-no stick, no grinding feel, binding or creaking.
-clear, sharp positive feedback feel.
-light to medium-light pressure.
-no miss even pressed lightly get characters back.
What I don't like: compaq's notebook/laptop keyboards it binds and
grinds too heavy pressure to trip "rollover", Dec keyboards (no
feedback by feel!), mushy ie: M$ natural, Tandy keyboards, zenith's
both pc and at keyboards.
Pet pevee: coiled keyboard cords on those IBM mod M keyboards!
Wizard
8846
days inactive
8854
days old
21 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
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