12 Jan
2012
12 Jan
'12
1:46 a.m.
Hey Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
looked physically like a 128?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
1:58 a.m.
the 64c resembled a c128
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:46:05 -0500
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Commodore 64 question
Hey Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
looked physically like a 128?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
3:33 a.m.
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Maybe you're thinking of the 64C? That's very 128-esque, but it's
quite a bit smaller, and has fewer keys.
- Alex
> ? ?Hey
Commie folks. ?Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
> looked physically like a 128?
Aside from a LOT of extraneous circuit changes, the 128 was a version of
the 64 that looked like a 128. 
2:31 p.m.
> _ _Hey Commie folks. _Did Commodore build a
version of the 64 that
> looked physically like a 128?
Aside from a LOT of extraneous circuit changes, the 128 was a version of
the 64 that looked like a 128. 
5:01 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
Well, all you need to do is take a 64 and shift it left a bit.
> Hey
Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
> looked physically like a 128?
Aside from a LOT of extraneous circuit changes, the 128 was a version of
the 64 that looked like a 128.
5:30 p.m.
> Hey Commie folks. Did Commodore build a
version of the 64 that
> looked physically like a 128?
Aside from a LOT of extraneous circuit changes, the 128 was a version of
the 64 that looked like a 128. 
6:32 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
Well, all you need to do is take a 64 and shift it left a bit.
I moved my 64 a bit left on the desk but it's still a 64.
Shift to the Left!
Shift to the Right!
Push Down! Pop Up!
Byte! Byte! Byte!
-ethan
> ? ?Hey
Commie folks. ?Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
> looked physically like a 128?
Aside from a LOT of extraneous circuit changes, the 128 was a version of
the 64 that looked like a 128. 
8:10 p.m.
On 01/12/2012 12:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
I moved my 64 a bit left on the desk but it's still a 64.
LDA #$40
ASL
Get it?
To go back, just hold the Commodore key as you power on your new 128
Aside from a LOT of extraneous circuit changes, the
128 was a version of
the 64 that looked like a 128.
Well, all you need to do is take a 64 and shift it
left a bit.
9:22 p.m.
Aside from a
LOT of extraneous circuit changes, the 128 was a version of
the 64 that looked like a 128.
Well, all you need to do is take a 64 and shift it
left a bit. 
11:54 p.m.
On 12/01/12 12:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Well, all you need to do is take a 64 and shift it left a bit.
I moved my 64 a bit left on the desk but it's still a 64.
Harharharharharharhar.
--T
> Hey
Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
> looked physically like a 128?
Aside from a LOT of extraneous circuit changes, the 128 was a version of
the 64 that looked like a 128.
1:58 a.m.
Hey Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of
the 64 that
looked physically like a 128?
The 64C looks similar.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- In memory of Werner Klemperer ----------------------------------------------
2:01 a.m.
Yes.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Hey Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that looked
physically like a 128?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"Yes, Obama duped young people by not doing every single thing they want.
So now, they'll all vote Republican. It's like when I want some bread, I
won't settle for half a loaf. Instead, I will have a muffin made of broken
glass."
-Stephen Colbert
2:09 a.m.
The C64c ?
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/c64c.htm
Terry (Tez)
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Hey Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that looked
physically like a 128?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
2:48 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012 12:46 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Commodore 64 question
Hey Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
looked physically like a 128?
-Dave
Sort of - the whole range (including the A500, A600 and A1200 Amigas) all
had a very similar look.
Lance
5:34 a.m.
On 01/11/2012 09:48 PM, Lance Lyon wrote:
I remember the Amigas and the 128. From the responses I've seen here
I believe it is a C64C. I have been offered this machine locally; I was
told it was a "Commodore 64" but the picture I was sent looks like a
128. The woman is certain that it's a 64, but I'd never heard of a 64
in a case like that.
Are there any other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does
it run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
Thanks,
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
Hey Commie
folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
looked physically like a 128?
Sort of - the whole range (including the A500, A600 and A1200 Amigas) all
had a very similar look.
6:11 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012 4:35 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Commodore 64 question
Are there any other hardware differences that
you're aware of? Does
it run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
"Super Awesome" is not exactly how'd I'd describe BASIC 2.0 .......
Major difference is with the SID chip - the new SIDs aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise). The PC board is also mostly all surface mount and
with a reduced chip count. Apart from that, largely the same as the old
breadboxes.
Lance
1:26 p.m.
On Jan 12, 2012, at 1:11 AM, Lance Lyon wrote:
I've heard that, though I've also heard they were more reliable (9v HMOS II
instead of 12v NMOS dissipating less heat...) I certainly know a lot of chiptune artists
prefer the older 6581 to the newer 8580. If you're into chiptunes, this site has MP3s
of recordings of thousands of tunes, each running on two revisions of the 6581 and also
the 8580 for comparison.
- Dave
Are there any
other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does
it run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
"Super Awesome" is not exactly how'd I'd describe BASIC 2.0 .......
Major difference is with the SID chip - the new SIDs aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise). The PC board is also mostly all surface mount and
with a reduced chip count. Apart from that, largely the same as the old
breadboxes.
1:32 p.m.
On Jan 12, 2012, at 8:26 AM, David Riley wrote:
I've heard that, though I've also heard they
were more reliable (9v HMOS II instead of 12v NMOS dissipating less heat...) I certainly
know a lot of chiptune artists prefer the older 6581 to the newer 8580. If you're
into chiptunes, this site has MP3s of recordings of thousands of tunes, each running on
two revisions of the 6581 and also the 8580 for comparison.
Er, yes, that link was: http://www.6581-8580.com/
- Dave
3:48 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, David Riley wrote:
On Jan 12, 2012, at 8:26 AM, David Riley wrote:
Thanks. http://www.radio6581.com is a great choice if you like your
chiptunes streamed.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
I've heard that, though I've also heard
they were more reliable (9v
HMOS II instead of 12v NMOS dissipating less heat...) I certainly know
a lot of chiptune artists prefer the older 6581 to the newer 8580. If
you're into chiptunes, this site has MP3s of recordings of thousands of
tunes, each running on two revisions of the 6581 and also the 8580 for
comparison.
Er, yes, that link was: http://www.6581-8580.com/
3:46 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, David Riley wrote:
On Jan 12, 2012, at 1:11 AM, Lance Lyon wrote:
I've heard that, though I've also heard they were more reliable (9v HMOS
II instead of 12v NMOS dissipating less heat...) I certainly know a lot
of chiptune artists prefer the older 6581 to the newer 8580. If you're
into chiptunes, this site has MP3s of recordings of thousands of tunes,
each running on two revisions of the 6581 and also the 8580 for
comparison.
What site? :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Are
there any other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does
it run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
"Super Awesome" is not exactly how'd I'd describe BASIC 2.0 .......
Major difference is with the SID chip - the new SIDs aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise). The PC board is also mostly all surface mount and
with a reduced chip count. Apart from that, largely the same as the old
breadboxes.
4:28 p.m.
On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Yeah, bonehead mistake; it was in the next one, but for reference, it's
http://www.6581-8580.com/.
- Dave
I've heard
that, though I've also heard they were more reliable (9v HMOS II instead of 12v NMOS
dissipating less heat...) I certainly know a lot of chiptune artists prefer the older
6581 to the newer 8580. If you're into chiptunes, this site has MP3s of recordings of
thousands of tunes, each running on two revisions of the 6581 and also the 8580 for
comparison.
What site? :)
4:52 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, David Riley wrote:
On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Yeah, bonehead mistake; it was in the next one, but for reference, it's
http://www.6581-8580.com/.
Is there a torrent of their collection available somewhere?
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
I've
heard that, though I've also heard they were more reliable (9v HMOS II instead of 12v
NMOS dissipating less heat...) I certainly know a lot of chiptune artists prefer the
older 6581 to the newer 8580. If you're into chiptunes, this site has MP3s of
recordings of thousands of tunes, each running on two revisions of the 6581 and also the
8580 for comparison.
What site? :)
5:02 p.m.
On Jan 12, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Is there a torrent of their collection available somewhere?
Not to my knowledge, but I haven't really looked.
- Dave
What site? :)
Yeah, bonehead mistake; it was in the next one, but for reference, it's
http://www.6581-8580.com/. 
4:56 p.m.
New subject: [OT]: Paging Beeprog users
Sorry for the offtopic, but I could use some help here
Any Beeprog users here? I need a photo of the diagnostic pod that comes
with the unit...
Please, if you can help (or the pinout), pvt me
Thanks
Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
3:38 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Lance Lyon wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012 4:35 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Commodore 64 question
Um....The "new" SID chip didn't show up in the 64C until the Rev E (I
_think_) board. Also, practically nothing was surface mounted.
Here's a picture of the Rev E board:
http://www.oldsoftware.com/softimg8/64cboard.jpg
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Are there any other hardware differences that
you're aware of? Does
it run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
"Super Awesome" is not exactly how'd I'd describe BASIC 2.0 .......
Major difference is with the SID chip - the new SIDs aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise). The PC board is also mostly all surface mount and
with a reduced chip count. Apart from that, largely the same as the old
breadboxes.
6:31 p.m.
On Jan 12 2012, Lance Lyon wrote:
It's practically BASIC 1.0, which is the version Jack Tramiel licensed from
Bill Gates in 1977 for a flat fee of $250,000 to use on as many units as he
liked.
The only two keywords added in BASIC 2.0 as far as I know are the pi symbol
and the GO keyword, and I have no idea what GO does, if indeed anything at
all. In BASIC 7.0 on the C128, it's used in "GO 64" to switch to C64 mode.
There is an expansion for BASIC 2.0, which is called Super Expander, for
both the VIC 20 and C64. Well worth seeking out, it's the same dialect
later used in BASIC 3.5 for the plus/4 and BASIC 7.0 for the C128.
Are there
any other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does
it run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
"Super Awesome" is not exactly how'd I'd describe BASIC 2.0 .......
Major difference is with the SID chip - the new SIDs
aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise). The PC board is also mostly all surface mount and
with a reduced chip count. Apart from that, largely the same as the old
breadboxes.
6581 SIDs have a very variable filter but when you get a good one it's
really nice. The transfer function for the cutoff frequency is roughly
speaking exponential. Whereas 8580 SIDs have much more consistent filters
between units, stronger resonance and a linear transfer function for the
cutoff frequency. The 6581 filter distorts a lot but in a very nice
"analogue synthesizer" sort of way. In the same way that a Korg MS20 filter
or a Moog filter is nice, so is the 6581 filter nice.
7:51 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Richard Atkinson <rga24 at cantab.net> wrote:
It's practically BASIC 1.0, which is the version
Jack Tramiel licensed from
Bill Gates in 1977 for a flat fee of $250,000 to use on as many units as he
liked.
I did not recall the precise amount, but those sound like the terms I remember.
The only two keywords added in BASIC 2.0 as far as I
know are the pi symbol
and the GO keyword, and I have no idea what GO does, if indeed anything at
all.
It allows GO TO vs GOTO (TO is already a tokenized keyword for FOR statements)
-ethan
8:38 p.m.
Wikipedia says $25,000 not $250,000. I expect Tramiel sensed that the young
Microsoft needed the money more than Bill Gates was letting on.
On Jan 12 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Richard Atkinson
<rga24 at cantab.net> wrote:
It's practically BASIC 1.0, which is the
version Jack Tramiel licensed
from Bill Gates in 1977 for a flat fee of $250,000 to use on as many
units as he liked.
I did not recall the precise amount, but those sound like the terms I
remember.
The only two keywords added in BASIC 2.0 as far
as I know are the pi
symbol and the GO keyword, and I have no idea what GO does, if indeed
anything at all.
It allows GO TO vs GOTO (TO is already a tokenized keyword for FOR
statements)
-ethan
8:41 p.m.
On Jan 12 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote:
So you're allowed GO TO but not GO SUB?
The only two
keywords added in BASIC 2.0 as far as I know are the pi
symbol and the GO keyword, and I have no idea what GO does, if indeed
anything at all.
It allows GO TO vs GOTO (TO is already a tokenized keyword for FOR
statements)
10:37 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Richard Atkinson <rga24 at cantab.net> wrote:
On Jan 12 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote:
So you're allowed GO TO but not GO SUB?
Yes. SUB is not a token.
-ethan
The only
two keywords added in BASIC 2.0 as far as I know are the pi
symbol and the GO keyword, and I have no idea what GO does, if indeed
anything at all.
It allows GO TO vs GOTO (TO is already a tokenized keyword for FOR
statements)
8:36 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Richard Atkinson wrote:
On Jan 12 2012, Lance Lyon wrote:
It's practically BASIC 1.0, which is the version Jack Tramiel licensed from
Bill Gates in 1977 for a flat fee of $250,000 to use on as many units as he
liked.
The only two keywords added in BASIC 2.0 as far as I know are the pi symbol
and the GO keyword, and I have no idea what GO does, if indeed anything at
all. In BASIC 7.0 on the C128, it's used in "GO 64" to switch to C64 mode.
For those interested: http://www.pagetable.com/?p=46 - there is a zip file
linked there that will allow you to create byte-exact versions of the
following versions of BASIC (using the cc65 assembler):
Commodore BASIC 1
OSI BASIC
AppleSoft I
KIM-1 BASIC
Commodore BASIC 2 (PET)
Intellivision Keyboard Component BASIC
MicroTAN BASIC
Are
there any other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does it
run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
"Super Awesome" is not exactly how'd I'd describe BASIC 2.0 .......
There is an expansion for BASIC 2.0, which is called
Super Expander, for both
the VIC 20 and C64. Well worth seeking out, it's the same dialect later used
in BASIC 3.5 for the plus/4 and BASIC 7.0 for the C128.
I wonder how difficult it would be to disassemble the Super Expander ROM
and fold it into the existing BASIC v2 for the 64 in order to burn a new
BASIC ROM - it would leave the cart port free for other things. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
8:01 p.m.
On 01/12/2012 01:11 AM, Lance Lyon wrote:
I was just razzing Liam since he hates it so much. I have very
little experience with or knowledge of Commodore BASIC.
Are there
any other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does
it run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
"Super Awesome" is not exactly how'd I'd describe BASIC 2.0 .......
Major difference is with the SID chip - the new SIDs
aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise). The PC board is also mostly all surface mount and
with a reduced chip count. Apart from that, largely the same as the old
breadboxes.
Ahh, gotcha. Thank you for the info.
I wonder why they downgraded the SID chip. Cost reasons?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
8:33 p.m.
I wonder why they downgraded the SID chip. Cost
reasons?
At the time they probably thought they were fixing it, since the voltage leak
widely exploited for primitive D-A conversion ($d418) was technically a bug
and is the most (in)famous thing fixed between the 6581 and the 8580.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Art is anything you can get away with. -- Marshall McLuhan -----------------
9:28 p.m.
I wonder
why they downgraded the SID chip. Cost reasons?
At the time they probably thought they were fixing it, since the voltage
leak widely exploited for primitive D-A conversion ($d418) was
technically a bug and is the most (in)famous thing fixed between the 6581
and the 8580. 
11:56 p.m.
The filter cutoff frequency varied enormously between
6581 chips, they fixed
that completely in the 8580. While also changing its character a lot. I
wouldn't say it's downgraded, it's good to have both versions.
I suspect the SID upgrade was an attempt to get Commodore into the
synth market, even if just a supplier of the chips. Just about every
synth marker eyed the 6581 to some extent, but they all found the
variations found in the chips to be intolerable.
But, by the time the 8580 happened, so did the DX7.
--
Will
8:43 p.m.
On Jan 12, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
It's not a downgrade per se; they actually improved it from a technical standpoint, in
the same way that transistor amps improve upon tube amps from a technical standpoint (both
from a consistency and a distortion point of view). The problem is that sometimes the
distortion sounds better. :-)
The 8580 certainly sounded more consistent from chip to chip; it has a much
"cleaner" sound. Some games actually had knobs to twiddle because the filter
blocks in the old 6581s could vary so much that the music would sound kinda wrong. It
also didn't distort quite as much and the filters were much more resonant due to the
higher gain of the HMOS II process over the older NMOS process.
Check out the different samples in the site I linked; the 6581 versions sound
distinctively more "dirty", which could be a good or a bad thing depending on
your point of view (and depending on what music you're trying to play through it).
There's a pretty spiffy interview with Bob Yannes (designer of the chip, later founder
of Ensoniq) here: http://sid.kubarth.com/articles/interview_bob_yannes.html
And lots of cool die shots of various revisions here: http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/
And hopefully some time in the future, a visual interactive simulation here:
http://visual6502.org/images/pages/Commodore_8580_SID.html
- Dave
Major
difference is with the SID chip - the new SIDs aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise). The PC board is also mostly all surface mount and
with a reduced chip count. Apart from that, largely the same as the old
breadboxes.
Ahh, gotcha. Thank you for the info.
I wonder why they downgraded the SID chip. Cost reasons?
14 Jan
14 Jan
12:24 a.m.
On 01/12/2012 03:43 PM, David Riley wrote:
Ahh I understand. Thank you for the education. Very interesting
stuff. Like I said I wasn't a "Commie" back in those days; it seems to
have been a very interesting and diverse (and large!) corner of home
computing.
I wonder why
they downgraded the SID chip. Cost reasons?
It's not a downgrade per se; they actually improved it from a
technical standpoint, in the same way that transistor amps improve
upon tube amps from a technical standpoint (both from a consistency
and a distortion point of view). The problem is that sometimes the
distortion sounds better. :-) And lots of cool die shots of various revisions here:
http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/
Good heavens. Are those guys reverse-engineering the whole chip??
Some amazing shots there, and interesting documentation!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
2:10 a.m.
On Jan 13, 2012, at 7:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Yes, actually. They're looking to do a simulation like the visual 6502 (at
visual6502.org), which should present some interesting challenges (the analog portion will
probably be a lot harder to simulate).
Someone may be intending to make new hardware, as well; there are quite a few hardware SID
synths (HardSID, for example) that make use of actual pulls or NOS, but both pulls and NOS
are getting quite hard to come by now (especially of the 6581). Sounds like an
interesting project to me; I think intentionally making a crappy filter is better left to
discrete transistors than an IC.
- Dave
And lots of
cool die shots of various revisions here:
http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/
Good heavens. Are those guys reverse-engineering the whole chip?? Some amazing shots
there, and interesting documentation!
2:40 a.m.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012, David Riley wrote:
On Jan 13, 2012, at 7:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Yes, actually. They're looking to do a simulation like the visual 6502
(at visual6502.org), which should present some interesting challenges
(the analog portion will probably be a lot harder to simulate).
I wonder when they're going to do the VIC II. :)
And lots
of cool die shots of various revisions here:
http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/
Good heavens. Are those guys reverse-engineering the whole chip?? Some amazing shots
there, and interesting documentation! Someone may be intending to make new hardware, as
well; there are quite
a few hardware SID synths (HardSID, for example) that make use of actual
pulls or NOS, but both pulls and NOS are getting quite hard to come by
now (especially of the 6581). Sounds like an interesting project to me;
I think intentionally making a crappy filter is better left to discrete
transistors than an IC.
Dave, check this out: http://www.swinkels.tvtom.pl/swinsid/
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
3:53 a.m.
On Jan 13, 2012, at 9:40 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Dave, check this out:
http://www.swinkels.tvtom.pl/swinsid/
Not bad! Doing the analog bits in DSP is the next best thing... kinda like my guitar amp
(most of the tube sound, none of the really dreadful reliability/power cost issues).
- Dave
6:24 a.m.
On 01/13/2012 09:10 PM, David Riley wrote:
Yes, actually. They're looking to do a simulation like the visual
6502 (at visual6502.org), which should present some interesting
challenges (the analog portion will probably be a lot harder to
simulate).
Someone may be intending to make new hardware, as well; there are
quite a few hardware SID synths (HardSID, for example) that make use
of actual pulls or NOS, but both pulls and NOS are getting quite hard
to come by now (especially of the 6581). Sounds like an interesting
project to me; I think intentionally making a crappy filter is better
left to discrete transistors than an IC.
Yes. Wow, this is awesome work that they're doing.
One of the things I always ran into about the Commie vs. Atari camps
was the C64's crap graphics but great sound, and the Atari's far
superior graphics but comparatively primitive sound. It looks like the
C64's sound has a huge following at the "guts" level. This is really cool.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
And lots of cool die shots of various revisions here:
http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/
Good heavens. Are those guys reverse-engineering the whole chip??
Some amazing shots there, and interesting documentation! 
5:03 a.m.
On 1/13/12 4:24 PM, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/12/2012 03:43 PM, David Riley wrote:
Ahh I understand. Thank you for the education. Very interesting
stuff. Like I said I wasn't a "Commie" back in those days; it seems to
have been a very interesting and diverse (and large!) corner of home
computing.
It is similar to the whole tube/IC amplifier debates.
I wonder
why they downgraded the SID chip. Cost reasons?
It's not a downgrade per se; they actually improved it from a
technical standpoint, in the same way that transistor amps improve
upon tube amps from a technical standpoint (both from a consistency
and a distortion point of view). The problem is that sometimes the
distortion sounds better. :-) And lots of
cool die shots of various revisions here:
http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/
Good heavens. Are those guys reverse-engineering the whole chip??
Some amazing shots there, and interesting documentation!
-Dave
12 Jan
12 Jan
8:56 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/12/2012 01:11 AM, Lance Lyon wrote:
Ultimately, I'm sure that's the cause. I don't think the intention
was to "downgrade" the SID, but fanatical coders found ways to abuse
the audio filters in ways that were not foreseen by the designers (and
in ways that were not documented, nor guaranteed to work), so the
effect was that some of the more interesting and creative effects that
were developed on the 6581 (original) SID didn't work on the 8580
(later) SID.
As I understand it, the most visible impact was on 4-bit digitized
sound playback (as seen in "Impossible Mission"), but there were other
"features" that were left behind in the redesign/remask.
-ethan
Major difference is with the SID chip - the new
SIDs aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise).
?I wonder why they downgraded the SID chip. ?Cost reasons? 
13 Jan
13 Jan
5:39 a.m.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/12/2012 01:11 AM, Lance Lyon wrote:
I was just razzing Liam since he hates it so much. I have very little
experience with or knowledge of Commodore BASIC.
The revised SIDs are technically correct and behave according to spec.
The earlier ones, while being buggy, their "dirt" gave them a sort of
desirable warmth.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Are
there any other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does
it run the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I
couldn't resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
"Super Awesome" is not exactly how'd I'd describe BASIC 2.0 .......
Major difference is with the SID chip - the new
SIDs aren't as good as the
older ones (sound-wise). The PC board is also mostly all surface mount and
with a reduced chip count. Apart from that, largely the same as the old
breadboxes.
Ahh, gotcha. Thank you for the info.
I wonder why they downgraded the SID chip. Cost reasons?
12 Jan
12 Jan
3:35 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/11/2012 09:48 PM, Lance Lyon wrote:
I remember the Amigas and the 128. From the responses I've seen here I
believe it is a C64C. I have been offered this machine locally; I was told
it was a "Commodore 64" but the picture I was sent looks like a 128. The
woman is certain that it's a 64, but I'd never heard of a 64 in a case like
that.
Are there any other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does it run
the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I couldn't
resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
Dave, the C-64C is primarily just a case upgrade and later on a
cost-reduced main board update (4464 instead of 4164, etc). The KERNAL
and BASIC ROMs are basically the same as what is found in the old breadbox
64.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Hey
Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
looked physically like a 128?
Sort of - the whole range (including the A500, A600 and A1200 Amigas) all
had a very similar look. 
6:18 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb at deltasoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:35:16 AM
Subject: Re: Commodore 64 question
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/11/2012 09:48 PM, Lance Lyon wrote:
I remember the Amigas and the 128. From the responses I've seen here I
believe it is a C64C. I have been offered this machine locally; I was told
it was a "Commodore 64" but the picture I was sent looks like a 128. The
woman is certain that it's a 64, but I'd never heard of a 64 in a case like
that.
Are there any other hardware differences that you're aware of? Does it run
the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I couldn't
resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
Dave, the C-64C is primarily just a case upgrade and later on a
cost-reduced main board update (4464 instead of 4164, etc). The KERNAL
and BASIC ROMs are basically the same as what is found in the old breadbox
64.
The C64C also came bundled with GEOS.
Cheers,
Bryan
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Hey
Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that
looked physically like a 128?
Sort of - the whole range (including the A500, A600 and A1200 Amigas) all
had a very similar look.
8:04 p.m.
On 01/12/2012 01:18 PM, bryan.pope at comcast.net wrote:
Dave, the C-64C is primarily just a case upgrade and
later on a
cost-reduced main board update (4464 instead of 4164, etc). The KERNAL
and BASIC ROMs are basically the same as what is found in the old breadbox
64.
Gotcha. It sounds like it was basically a minor technology refresh &
cost cutting machine. Odd that I've never seen one around; all of my
friends had 64s back in the day, and some of them moved to 128s at some
point, but I've never seen one of these 64C machines. Hadn't even heard
of them. Interesting!
The C64C also came bundled with GEOS.
Oh neat! I wonder if that'll come with the 64C that I'm about to get.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
8:50 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/12/2012 01:18 PM, bryan.pope at comcast.net
wrote:
If it doesn't yell and and I'll send you some disks. You're on your
own
to find a mouse though - I'm keeping mine. (1351 is the model # of the
mouse AFAIR)
Are you getting a disk drive with it?
If you're planning on using it much, I would highly recommed getting a
uIEC from Jim Brain. http://store.go4retro.com/
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Dave, the C-64C is primarily just a case upgrade
and later on a
cost-reduced main board update (4464 instead of 4164, etc). The KERNAL
and BASIC ROMs are basically the same as what is found in the old breadbox
64.
Gotcha. It sounds like it was basically a minor technology refresh & cost
cutting machine. Odd that I've never seen one around; all of my friends had
64s back in the day, and some of them moved to 128s at some point, but I've
never seen one of these 64C machines. Hadn't even heard of them.
Interesting!
The C64C also came bundled with GEOS.
Oh neat! I wonder if that'll come with the 64C that I'm about to get.
14 Jan
14 Jan
12:20 a.m.
On 01/12/2012 03:50 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
If it doesn't yell and and I'll send you some disks. You're on your
own
to find a mouse though - I'm keeping mine. (1351 is the model # of the
mouse AFAIR)
Excellent, thanks!
The C64C also came bundled with GEOS.
Oh neat! I wonder if that'll come with the 64C that I'm about to get.
Are you getting a disk drive with it?
Yes, a 1541 and a 1541-II.
If you're planning on using it much, I would
highly recommed getting a
uIEC from Jim Brain. http://store.go4retro.com/
Oh yes, most definitely. Thanks for the pointer!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
12:24 a.m.
On 1/13/12 4:20 PM, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Also you may want to get youself a zoomfloppy from Jim also, USB-IEC adapter
so you can write commodore floppies from a modern (usb) pc or mac.
On 01/12/2012
03:50 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Are you getting a disk drive with it?
Yes, a 1541 and a 1541-II.
If you're planning on using it much, I would
highly recommed getting a
uIEC from Jim Brain. http://store.go4retro.com/
Oh yes, most definitely. Thanks for the pointer!
-Dave 
12:39 a.m.
On 1/13/2012 6:24 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
Also you may want to get youself a zoomfloppy from Jim also,
USB-IEC adapter
so you can write commodore floppies from a modern (usb) pc or mac.
Consider JiffyDOS if you're so inclined. WIthout it, CBM drives are
extremely slow (uIEC or otherwise)
If you're planning on using it much, I would
highly recommed getting a
uIEC from Jim Brain. http://store.go4retro.com/
Oh yes, most definitely.
Thanks for the pointer!
-Dave
5:04 a.m.
On 1/13/12 4:39 PM, "Jim Brain" <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
On 1/13/2012 6:24 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
Also you may want to get youself a zoomfloppy from Jim also,
USB-IEC adapter
so you can write commodore floppies from a modern (usb) pc or mac.
Consider JiffyDOS if you're so inclined. WIthout it, CBM drives are
extremely slow (uIEC or otherwise)
When I have the $ to spare I'll be doing that on the 64's and 1541's and the
C128 and 1571 I have.
If you're planning on using it much, I would
highly recommed getting a
uIEC from Jim Brain. http://store.go4retro.com/
Oh yes, most definitely.
Thanks for the pointer!
-Dave
12:55 a.m.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
On 1/13/12 4:20 PM, "Dave McGuire"
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Also you may want to get youself a zoomfloppy from Jim also, USB-IEC adapter
so you can write commodore floppies from a modern (usb) pc or mac.
It'll also allow you to read/write physical media using the VICE emulator.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
On
01/12/2012 03:50 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Are you getting a disk drive with it?
Yes, a 1541 and a 1541-II.
If you're planning on using it much, I would
highly recommed getting a
uIEC from Jim Brain. http://store.go4retro.com/
Oh yes, most definitely. Thanks for the pointer!
-Dave
12:54 a.m.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
You'll want to get JiffyDOS ROMs as well - they're well worth it.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
On 01/12/2012 03:50 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
If it doesn't yell and and I'll send you some disks. You're on your
own
to find a mouse though - I'm keeping mine. (1351 is the model # of the
mouse AFAIR)
Excellent, thanks!
Send me your mailing address and I'll see what I've got in my piles of
floppies. :)
The C64C also came bundled with GEOS.
Oh neat! I wonder if that'll come with the 64C that I'm about to get.
Are you
getting a disk drive with it?
Yes, a 1541 and a 1541-II.
If you're planning on using it much, I would
highly recommed getting a
uIEC from Jim Brain. http://store.go4retro.com/
Oh yes, most definitely. Thanks for the pointer!
12 Jan
12 Jan
9:24 p.m.
The C64C also
came bundled with GEOS.
Oh neat! I wonder if that'll come with the 64C that I'm about to get.
11:34 p.m.
there was the pain in the a$$ copyprotection, which can be taken care of.
a much nicer/better version was the first GEOS for PC.
geos can be found online if you look in the right places.
From: spectre at floodgap.com
Subject: Re: Commodore 64 question
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:24:12 -0800
I bet not. I bet people didn't know what it was. GEOS should have had much
more penetration based on the number of actual copies distributed, and the
only conclusion I can draw is that people tried it and didn't find it
useful, or didn't understand what it was in the first place.
FTR, I didn't really appreciate GEOS until I'd used a Mac for a few years
and realized just how much work Berkeley Softworks had to do to even
simulate a subset of that environment. But by then life had moved onto
GeoWorks.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Only death cures stupidity! -- "Cowboy Bebop: The Movie" -------------------
The C64C
also came bundled with GEOS.
Oh neat! I wonder if that'll come with the 64C that I'm about to get. 
13 Jan
13 Jan
12:04 a.m.
On 12/01/2012 20:04, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Gotcha. It sounds like it was basically a minor
technology refresh &
cost cutting machine. Odd that I've never seen one around; all of my
friends had 64s back in the day, and some of them moved to 128s at some
point, but I've never seen one of these 64C machines. Hadn't even heard
of them. Interesting!
If you weren't about to get one I've got bloody loads here in the UK you
could have :)
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
1:18 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas <
pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
If you weren't about to get one I've got
bloody loads here in the UK you
Yeah... same here. and I too live in the UK... (;
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"Yes, Obama duped young people by not doing every single thing they want.
So now, they'll all vote Republican. It's like when I want some bread, I
won't settle for half a loaf. Instead, I will have a muffin made of broken
glass."
-Stephen Colbert
could have :)
If the offer is extensible... ;o)
14 Jan
14 Jan
6:23 p.m.
On 12 January 2012 05:34, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
?Are there any other hardware differences that
you're aware of? ?Does it run
the same SUPER AWESOME AMAZINGLY ADVANCED BASIC (sorry Liam, I couldn't
resist! ;)) that the "ordinary" 64 runs?
:?D
There's a bit of gen here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64#Hardware_revisions
AFAICS the C64C uses fewer chips and a bit less power, but there are
no functional enhancements.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
12 Jan
12 Jan
3:11 a.m.
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
Hey Commie folks. Did Commodore build a version of the 64 that looked
physically like a 128?
The 64C.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
4733
days inactive
4735
days old
63 comments
24 participants
participants (24)
-
brain＠jbrain.com -
bryan.pope＠comcast.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dgahling＠hotmail.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
james＠slor.net -
jjacocks＠mac.com -
john＠yoyodyne-propulsion.net -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
lance.w.lyon＠gmail.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
ray＠arachelian.com -
rga24＠cantab.net -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
terry＠webweavers.co.nz -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk