7 Dec
2000
7 Dec
'00
12:34 a.m.
When I was a grad student at Caltech I heard some professors offering
some similar worries as much as 10 years ago.... See the full article at
http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2659964,00.html
An excerpt:
And then, someone shouted, "Let's put a computer
together with all this stuff!"
But could they? Could a handful of engineering
majors, circa 2000, actually make a computer out of
assorted parts?
It's a question that has professors tossing and
turning at night. It also has many of them rethinking
basic college curriculum, trying to prepare a new
breed of students for a new economy screaming
for high-tech talent.
Used to be, engineering majors would come to
college fresh from childhoods of tinkering with car
engines and taking apart and putting together
radios.
No more.
"Students have never taken a toaster oven apart,
certainly never built a radio," said Lynn Abbott,
associate professor of computer and electrical
engineering at Virginia Tech. "They've never
changed the oil in the car, never seem to have
gotten their hands dirty with how things work. That
has had an impact on how we have to teach the
courses."
Tim. (who was weaned on big bags of parts from Poly Paks, anxiously
ordered from ads in the back of _Radio-Electronics_...)
7 Dec
7 Dec
6:21 a.m.
"Students have never taken a
toaster oven apart,
certainly never built a radio," said Lynn Abbott,
My own experience is that the engineers don't build anything themselves in
most jobs, unless they are making something for themselves. Products get
built by the techs, all the soldering, wire wrap etc., even on prototypes.
I like to tinker, but haven't found anybody that wants to pay me to do it.
5:56 a.m.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
I like to tinker, but haven't found anybody that
wants to pay me to do
it.
It's called "inventions and patents".
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
1:57 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
I have two patents and they still never let me tinker.
Well, next time try to invent something that's marketable :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
I like to tinker, but haven't found anybody that
wants to pay me to do
it.
It's called "inventions and patents".
8:38 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
I have two patents and they still never let me tinker.
Well, next time try to invent something that's marketable :)
I didn't want to brag, but I invented the donut.
I like to tinker, but haven't found anybody that
wants to pay me to do
it.
It's called "inventions and patents".
8 Dec
8 Dec
10:09 a.m.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
Oh yeah, that was you? I improved on your invention by inventing the hole
in the center (cost savings and easy to store on an extended finger).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
On Thu, 7 Dec
2000, Mike Ford wrote:
Well, next time try to invent something that's marketable :)
I didn't want to brag, but I invented the donut. > I
like to tinker, but haven't found anybody that wants to pay me to do
> it.
It's called "inventions and patents".
I have two patents and they still never let me tinker. 
7 Dec
7 Dec
10:12 a.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
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10 Dec
10 Dec
6:58 a.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker enough...
Upon the date 08:32 PM 12/7/00 +0000, Tony Duell said something like:
>
-- snip --
>
>> "Students
have never taken a toaster oven apart,
>> certainly never built a radio," said Lynn Abbott,
>
>Unfortunately, this seems to be the case in the UK as well. I've met
>engineering graduates who don't have a _clue_ about real-world
>electronics or mechanics. Show them a simple circuit board or a simple
>mechanism -- even something as simple as a striking clock -- and they
>don't have any ideas as to how it works and what the parts are for.
>
>Another thing that people are remarkably bad at these days is making
>sensible approximations. They just throw a computer at the problem and
>take whatever answer it gives as correct. Now, don't get me wrong -- I
>don't want to solve complex (differential) equations by hand. But often I
>can get an answer to better than 10% by making reasonable approximations,
>and either this is 'good enough', or at least it will convince me that
>the computer solution is meaningful.
>
>> Tim. (who was weaned on big bags of parts from Poly Paks, anxiously
>> ordered from ads in the back of _Radio-Electronics_...)
>
>
>
>-tony (who grew up holding a acrewdriver, built his first radio 28 years
>ago. For the UK people, the semiconductors were an OC45 (regenerative
>RF/AF stage), 2 OC71s (AF stages) and a couple of OA81 diodes. That
>should identify it. And who's probably fiddled with more pieces of
>machinery and electronics than an entire graduating engineering class has
>at most universities...)
Preach on, Brothers!! I get really depressed when I see a so-called
degreed engineer, recently on his first job, who hasn't a clue about
handling hardware -mechanical or electrical.
I still have a scar on my left thumb from when I was about three years old
(ca. 1956) and got cut badly while trying to discover just how that tin toy
Jack-in-the-Box would pop up at the end of the "Pop Goes The Weasel" tune.
I remember that event _very_ well.
I've not ever stopped being curiously investgative since (well, personal
injuries were _greatly_ diminished ;-) and that has helped me absolutely
immensely to get to where I am now.
I really hope a change comes about in the way technical degrees are taught
in colleges, e.g., much more hands-on coursework and actual encouragement
of tinkering. Tinkering, IMHO, drives thought processes directly involved
with learning problem solving and developing resourcefulness.
Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
7:26 a.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker enough...
Extremely OT, but hopefully of interest to many, so I hope I'll be forgiven
...
One show that provides some hope for the future of tinkering in England and
the US is the excellent Scrapheap Wars (called Junkyard Wars in the US and
Canada). The premise: two teams of 4 people (3 ordinary joes and 1 expert)
are turned loose in a junkyard and given 10 hours to build a device, such as
an amphibian, a glider, or a cannon, with which they compete the next day.
The teams don't know what they'll have to build in advance. The junkyard has
been mildly salted with useful items (hydraulic rams, propellors, etc) but
for the most part, the teams have to adapt their design to use whatever they
can find or build in the allotted time. Among the projects tackled so far
(other than the three mentioned above): a walking machine, a submarine, a
radio controlled bomber, a "deep-sea" recovery barge, demolition equipment,
a land yacht, and others that I'm forgetting.
In Canada and the US, the Learning Channel has been airing the first two
seasons from the UK in "marathons" of 4 per night for the last several
weeks. A US version of the show is coming. Check your local listings. It's
great fun, and an interesting look at some hands on, real time engineering
in the original sense of the word.
Cheers,
Mark
7:55 a.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
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12:46 p.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
All this reminds me of one thing tah one of my coworkers told me. If we
ever enter an area where we were not allowed to touch things we had to
keep our hands in our pockets. Looks weird but it causes me to think
before doing. And yes I love taking everything apart and figuring out
what makes it tick!
(EET)
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
11 Dec
11 Dec
3:49 a.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:55:15 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >-tony (who grew up holding a acrewdriver,
built his first radio 28 years
> >ago. For the UK people, the semiconductors were an OC45 (regenerative
> >RF/AF stage), 2 OC71s (AF stages) and a couple of OA81 diodes. That
> >should identify it.
...
You know, I am a little concerned that not one UK
member of this list
recognises that radio circuit. I thought just about everybody built it at
some point...
Well, I recognise the transistor numbers as PNP germanium
types, but I have to admit that I've never built a radio.
Unless you count a Rugby MSF time-code receiver? I think I
must have got into electronics at a time when off-the-shelf
radios were commonplace and the exciting stuff (for me, at
least) was television. Then Philips came out with the
N1500 video recorder, and then the first calculators and
microcomputers came along.
My scars were less serious as they've all gone by
now (well, apart from
the cuts made last week :-)) but I've had more than my fair share of
burns from molten solder, cuts from assorted tools, etc.
Oh dear, now you're making me realise how long it's been
since I did any soldering... But I did take my Akai 4000DS
reel-to-reel tape deck apart at the weekend.
It's amazing how much is learnt by
'tinkering'. And how that knowledge
comes to be useful to solve totally unrelated problems.
Absolutely right!
-tony
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
7:51 a.m.
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12 Dec
12 Dec
6:01 a.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
Tony Duell skrev:
> radios were commonplace and the exciting stuff
(for me, at
> least) was television. Then Philips came out with the
> N1500 video recorder, and then the first calculators and
Do you have an N1500. I remember seeing one in a London
shop in 1972-ish
and dreaming of getting one. Now, 28 years later, I have a couple of
them, working (of course), and the service manual. It's actually quite an
interesting design both mechanically and electronically.
Is this a "VCR" system?
I wouldn't be able to collect old videos as well, they don't lend themselves
very well to stacking, what with the cassette entry at the top.
> microcomputers came along.
Ah yes... And all the fun of wiring up buses on
stripboard ;-)
You old farts. =)
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
Php/fi: The syntax does a very good job on combining the drawbacks of C with
the disadvantages of Perl, in general resulting in a completely unreadable
sequence of seemingly random characters. Therefor it became quite popular
among Unix-fossils.
-- README for the HTML preprocessor "hsc"
10:49 a.m.
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13 Dec
13 Dec
12:42 p.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
Tony Duell skrev:
> >Do you have an N1500. I remember seeing one in
a London shop in 1972-ish
> >and dreaming of getting one. Now, 28 years later, I have a couple of
> >them, working (of course), and the service manual. It's actually quite an
> >interesting design both mechanically and electronically.
>
> Is this a "VCR" system?
That depends on what you mean by 'VCR system'
(and Philips themselves
changed the meaning a few times).
Pre-Video2000 arcane square cassette home video system.
Of course, Philips quickly discarded the PV2KASCHVS acronym for the catchier
VCR, or so my sources claim.
The N1500 casssette is almost square, and has the 2
spools stacked one on
top of the other, with a concentric drive spindle in the machine to turn
them separately. One result of this is that the head disk is almost
parallel to the deck, since the tape is naturally slanted to go between
the 2 spools.
I find the ?eta cassette very elegant, due to its size, as well as the one
large window.
Later Philips machines (the Video 2000 series) also had
a 'VCR' logo on
them.
I didn't know that. I think I'll have to look closer the next time I find such
a machine, then.
The tapes for these are little larger than VHS
cassettes, and have
2 spools side by side. The cassettes can be inserted either way up, like
an audio compact cassette. And like an audio compact cassette, you record
on one side, flip the tape over and record on the other side.
Yes, that's really handy. 480 minutes on one cassette in SP, I'd like that
very much, thank you. OTOH, I've got a Sony Betacam cassette sporting the
numbers 500 here (I haven't got a recorder to test it, it's just for pre-
emptive pruposes). Could it really hold 500 minutes on such a single-sided,
miniscule cassette?
The electronics, though is rather complicated. Part of
this is due to the
fact that the machines are old enough that there weren't single-chip
ASICs for many functions -- there are a lot of fairly simple chips and a
couple of microcontrollers inside. The electronics is all plug-in cards,
with functions like IF strip, audio, luminance, chrominance, tape servo,
head servo, timer, tuner control, etc. Yes I do have the service manual.
Ooh, I love plug-in architectures in home electronics. Once disassembled a 70s
TV with such an architecture (How my grandmother let me, I wouldn't know. High
currents, vacuum and an 11 year-old boy can cause a lot of trouble).
But wasn't V2000 a tad late in the race? IIRC, it came in '82, when home video
was rapidly becoming popular, and there was already an established user base
and infrastructure for other systems, primarily VHS. Certainly, it seems to
have been technologically superior, but it should have been released earlier.
> I wouldn't be able to collect old videos as
well, they don't lend
> themselves very well to stacking, what with the cassette entry at the top.
Well, you can stack them when you're not using them
:-)
Does anyone manufacture modern V2k systems? =)
BTW, when I bought my record player (a year ago), the old man in the shop
still had unopened VCR cassette for sale. Good to know when you get a
recorder.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
"Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any
different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you."
-- m3000
14 Dec
14 Dec
9:10 a.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
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15 Dec
15 Dec
12:27 p.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
Tony Duell skrev:
[N1500]
> >> Is this a "VCR" system?
>
> >That depends on what you mean by 'VCR system' (and Philips themselves
> >changed the meaning a few times).
>
> Pre-Video2000 arcane square cassette home video system.
Yes, that's the N1500 alright :-)
Surely there were other models, too?
> very much, thank you. OTOH, I've got a Sony
Betacam cassette sporting the
> numbers 500 here (I haven't got a recorder to test it, it's just for pre-
> emptive pruposes). Could it really hold 500 minutes on such a single-side=
> d,
> miniscule cassette?
I thought the number on Betamax cassettes gave the
length in feet or
something. Certaily I remember using L750 cassettes, and they were not
750 minutes long.
Indeed there is no correlation. I found a lot of ? tapes today, and the 500 is
only 225 minutes, IIRC. We can't have that, can we?
> >The electronics, though is rather complicated.
Part of this is due to th=
> e
> >fact that the machines are old enough that there weren't single-chip
> >ASICs for many functions -- there are a lot of fairly simple chips and a
> >couple of microcontrollers inside. The electronics is all plug-in cards,
> >with functions like IF strip, audio, luminance, chrominance, tape servo,
> >head servo, timer, tuner control, etc. Yes I do have the service manual.
>
> Ooh, I love plug-in architectures in home electronics. Once disassembled =
I love it for _everything_.
True, but they don't show up as often in home electronics. These aren't built
to be servicable.
> But wasn't V2000 a tad late in the race? IIRC,
it came in '82, when home =
Yes... (like the 6809 CPU, and various other good
designs)
The 6809 wasn't too late for the 8-bit micro race, was it?
History has shown time and again that you can either
develop a poor
design and get it out into the marketplace, or spend some time doing the
job properly and be late. And, alas, the early designs always seem to
'win' :-( :-(.
Mind you, Philips did both, didn't they? The VCR was the firs thome video
system, wasn't it? I wouldn't know if it was a poor design, though.
> Does anyone manufacture modern V2k systems? =3D)
Not that I know of :-(. The main (only) manufacturers
were Philips and
Grundig. I've seen service manuals for both (although the only actual
machines I've opened up are Philips), and it appears that the Philips
machines were much better built.
Oh, where did I put that electronics mag with reviews of the entire first
batch of Video2000 recorders... Didn't Bang & Olufsen make one, too? Of
course, I suspect they used a mechanism from one of the bigger manufacturers.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
Ed ecco un altro esempio in cui le sigle italiane e francesi sono uguali ...
non avrei mai creduto di poter un giorno dire una cosa del genere, ma secondo
me Crostina D'Avena canta meglio.
Tacchan s?gar den franska signaturen till Creamy Mami
1:07 p.m.
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3:47 p.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
Tony Duell skrev:
> >> >> Is this a "VCR"
system?
> >>
> >> >That depends on what you mean by 'VCR system' (and Philips
themselves
> >> >changed the meaning a few times).
> >>
> >> Pre-Video2000 arcane square cassette home video system.
>
> >Yes, that's the N1500 alright :-)
>
> Surely there were other models, too?
There was a the N1700, which used the same cassette,
but ran the tape
more slowly to give a longer recording time. Alas the machines were
totally incompatible AFAIK -- an N1500 couldn't play an N1700 tape and an
N1700 couldn't play an N1500 tape.
Hm, so IOW video rental was out of the question?
> >> But wasn't V2000 a tad late in the
race? IIRC, it came in '82, when ho=
> me =3D
>
> >Yes... (like the 6809 CPU, and various other good designs)
>
> The 6809 wasn't too late for the 8-bit micro race, was it?
IMHO yes. It came out significantly later than the Z80
or 6502. And
although the 6809 is (IMHO) the most elegant of the 8 bit micros (it's a
lot nicer than either the 6502 or Z80, for example), it wasn't widely used.
But several early micros use the 6809, don't they? Look at the Dragon and the
Tandy. It may have missed the early hacker scene (though I loaned a book at
the library a while ago detailing how to build your own 6809-based computer
from scratch), but was it too late for the consumer
micro scene?
> >History has shown time and again that you can
either develop a poor
> >design and get it out into the marketplace, or spend some time doing the
> >job properly and be late. And, alas, the early designs always seem to
> >'win' :-( :-(.
>
> Mind you, Philips did both, didn't they? The VCR was the firs thome video
> system, wasn't it? I wouldn't know if it was a poor design, though.
The original Philips machines (N1500, N1700) were very
well made, and
worked well. I think what killed them (cetainly the N1500) was the
limited recording time -- 1 hour per cassette. This wasn't long enough to
time shift a film (movie), for example.
Ouch, no.
The second time round Philips were determined to cure
this problem --
hence the V2000 with 4 hours recording per side. Of course since the
machines came out later than the VHS or Betamax units, V2000 is now only
a memory...
Alas.
> Oh, where did I put that electronics mag with
reviews of the entire first
> batch of Video2000 recorders... Didn't Bang & Olufsen make one, too? Of
Most earlier B&O video recorders (including early
VHS models) were actually
Philips machines. As were some other makes -- for example Dynatron in the
UK sold a colour TV with built in VCR in the mid 1970s. The TV was based
on the Philips G11 chassis and the VCR was an N1500.
My, that's early. Hm, I'll have to look that magazine up.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6.
"It's better to have loved and lost, than to be gang raped in a Turkish
prison."
16 Dec
16 Dec
9:03 a.m.
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13 Dec
13 Dec
2:37 a.m.
New subject: Professors worry that engineering students don't tinker
On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:51:23 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
No, but I wish I did. I've got three N1700s, though.
least) was
television. Then Philips came out with the
N1500 video recorder, and then the first calculators and
Do you have an N1500. I remember seeing one in a London shop in 1972-ish
and dreaming of getting one.
I saw one in a TV shop in Colchester, likewise.
Now, 28 years later, I have a couple of
them, working (of course), and the service manual. It's actually quite an
interesting design both mechanically and electronically.
Now, the TV shop is long gone and the shop's a charity
shop. Hmm... maybe, if I keep going in there, eventually
an N1500 will turn up in the charity shop?
It's unusual for me to have a day when I don't
turn the iron on, though.
There speaks a true hacker. BTW, Tony, do you know
anything about a Gould K100D logic analyser?
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
8614
days inactive
8623
days old
23 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cfandt＠netsync.net -
CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
gregorym＠cadvision.com -
John.Honniball＠uwe.ac.uk -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
ncherry＠home.net -
optimus＠canit.se