Ok, maybe I can drag something to the show... A few questions... If I want to exhibit a pre-1970 mini, what exactly do I need to do? Most of the info I found on the web site appeared to describe vendor tables. Are exhibit tables the same price, etc? Is it too late to exhibit something? I can can fit a working HP2114A in my Miata if I had to...

Seriously, they're free although I think you have to buy an admission to the show (but it's worth it).

Bob, VCF is more then just putting a computer on a table and letting people see it or type on the keyboard. Its about showing people the history and information behind the machine. Presentation and content for your display are important. If you have old magazine articles, photo's, ad's, technical documents and so forth, make a nice display with some foam board from Staples/Office depot and. Make a timeline of events, really show people whats behind that system so they can walk away knowing more, if you can photocopy stuff for handouts, thats always good too. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" <bshannon(a)tiac.net> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 10:48 AM Subject: Re: Questions on VCF East.

Jeff Hellige skrev: It really doesn't add much overhead compared to 3.1. It occupies more space, though not necessarily more than the heavily patched systems most 3.0/3.1 people run. Is it a big enough jump? Well, certainly a big jump from the stock 3.1 installation, but it really is a 3.x system with a lot of bells and whistles. I certainly like the new HDToolBox, in case you run drives over 4 GB, and over-all, you're spared from the headache of considering whayt patches to run, since all such functionality is in the box from the beginning. And if you run 3.9, you get media players and a nice TCP/IP stack which otherwise cost money. OTOH, it's a lot more fun to run once you've got a graphics card. But so is everything. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Netiquette: it's not just a good idea, there's actually an RFC about it! For the full details, check out <http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html>.

Jeff Hellige skrev: I hope you've managed to scrounge enough ZIPs to accomodate the OS and applications. Well, the A3000 is prettier both externally and internally, and most importantly, it's OT, which the A4000 (thankfully) isn't. The A4000 is more spacious inside, and requires less screwing around (with a screwdriver). The Spectrum is no speed demon, but everything's better than the onboard graphics. You'll probably not run EGS, though, but either CyberGFX or Picasso96. The TCP/IP stack of 3.5 is just a demo of Miami, whereas Genesis, a new version of AmiTCP, is included in full in 3.9. I own a registered Genesis but since it's just a GUI shell for AmiTCP 4.5, I'm still running my old pirate copy of 4.5. =) I might add that I still run 3.0, though I've upgraded the Kickstart to 3.1 in anticipation of a possible upgrade. I just haven't bothered to upgrade since my system is just as I like it. Perhaps when I've got some money to spare... -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. But a graphical client/server model that slices the interface down some arbitrary middle is like Solomon following through with his child-sharing strategy. The legs, heart, and left eye end up on the server, the arms and lungs go to the client, the head is left rolling around on the floor, and blood spurts everywhere. Don Hopkins - The Unix hater's handbook; The X-Windows disaster

Jeff Hellige skrev: Well, you can't go much further than that on the mobo IIRC. You mention the points which IMO makes the A3000 prettier. The A4000, for all its shortcomings, is somewhat easier to handle, though. You can fit a CD-ROM internally, although it's cramped. At the usergroup, we had one A4k with a CD- ROM protruding some cm out of the bay. Not a pretty sight. =) Similarly, the RAM may be hideously slow, but at least it uses SIMMs. Getting hold of ZIPs is a bloody pain in the neck (are there any list members out there who happen to have any to spare? =). The A1200 is common, but it is essentially a closed architecture. Unless you're adventurous and put it in a tower with a slot card and all that, but it still turns out as a mediocre imitation of a real big-box machine. Still, given a PCI backplane, it turns out a rather cheap solution compared to a similarly equipped Zorro Amiga. The fact that the newer OSes ship with either RTG system mention above is why I said you'd probably run those instead of EGS. Especially if you'd like to run new software, though I'm not familiar with EGA myself. Didn't it deviate somewhat from the usual WB look? ISTR screenshots in mags with gadgets which seemed to come from a Motif system. I didn't know that the Spectrum was a ZIII board, and thought it was very similar to the Picasso II in performance. I run a Retina ZIII myself, and while it doesn't put up much of a match against newer boards, it is competent enough. Certainly better than the PII. Version 4 had an Installer-based setup program which worked fine enough for me when I was a newbie (once I had learned what to input where =). Genesis has a full MUI GUI which I don't think is any worse than Miami, although I've always avoided that stack (first due to its dependence on MUI, then because I've grown to like AmiTCP). But since you've got a Miami licence, go ahead and use that if you like. If you're used to UNIX systems, you'll feel right at home with AmiTCP, since it essentially is half a BSD. =) Yes. BTW, you do have a CD-ROM, don't you? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a/AmigaOS 3.0. VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22) You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nitpicking is sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus drivers.

on 7/5/01 11:34 AM, Ethan Dicks at ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com wrote: The AGA advantage is pretty much nulled by a graphics card, unless you were one to run a lot of AGA-only programs. I didn't like the way a drive put in the A4000's 5-1/4" bay went right up against the PSU and often times ended up sticking part way out the front of the machine. The internal case layout of the A3000 is tight, but very well thought out. The A4000's not nearly as well. Jeff

Since we're talking Amiga upgrades, a knowledgeable Amiga guru I spoke to told me that the GVP A530 I have attached to my A500 only takes those funky 64-pin SIMMs. Are these the same SIMMs the Mac IIfx required? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu -- How do you explain school to a higher intelligence? -- Elliott in "E.T." ---

I'm just wondering if the pinout is the same, since I do know they're 64 pin. I can get my hands on IIfx memory "fairly cheaply" (this is a relative term). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible -

Cameron Kaiser skrev: To the best of my knowledge, they are not the same ones. If you're a handy man, you could build an adapter for 72-pin ones, though a handy friend of mine has managed to obliterate several 72-pinners that way. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.

Jeff Hellige skrev: If the Rapidfire really is a Zorro-II card, then it's a magnitude slower than the mobo A4k RAM. Our A3000 really went on its knees when we had put an old (old!) 8-UP! ZII DIP memory board in it. The majority of my memory is comprised of 30-pin SIMMs on a Fastlane Z3 SCSI card. It's a really nice SCSI card (I particularly like the fact that it's got a full CEN50 socket on the blanking plate), but even though it's a Z3 card, the RAM only runs at 80% of the mobo speed. The A1200 isn't particularly expensive IMO, but the big-box 32-bit machines are. See my post a week or two ago about how much faster workstation which retailed for ten times as much now sell at the fraction of the price of an unexpanded Amiga. =) These are rather old screenshots from a Spectrum review, but it could still be. And it can't be expanded either? Hm, sounds a lot like the PII. I believe that AmiCDFS is bundled with newer OS versions. BTW, a tip for old workstation users, I just found out that the CD-ROM in my Compaq Prosignia 300 EISA/PCI server has a jumper for setting the block size to 512 bytes. It's just a double-spin CD, but for me, it was free. Now it sits in the PowerUser SCSI box I bought today, and the Prosignia will have to make do with the 44 MB SyQuest which was in the SCSI case. =9 So if you're looking for one of those elusive "bootable" CD drives, look no further than Compaq. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. It's amazing how many useful pieces of equipment are disguised as domestic appliances: the machine for cleaning keyboard keycaps and shell cases does an excellent job of washing clothes, while the tumbling machine for drying them off also works for socks and shirts. The device in the kitchen for baking small spray-painted articles can be used for pizza and muffins. And so on... Pete Turnbull

Jeff Hellige skrev: We thought about getting such a board until some weeks ago when we were lended a Phase 5 Cyberstorm MK II 060 accelerator with 72-pin sockets. Still, it's quite apparent that this A3000 is kept together mostly by rust and hot glue. On good days, it works from a cold boot, otherwise it requires a few resets before everything's settled. We thought about buying such a card, too, until we were lended a Picasso IV. You can't go any farther on the Zorro bus (ATM). God forbid! That could be a good reason to install P96/CGFX instead of EGS. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Anv?nd g?rna mitt staket, fast du beh?ver nog fr?scha upp det lite. Lupin III, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978

Jeff Hellige skrev: We didn't have to modify the motherboard, just move some jumpers for clocks and such, though we did have to saw a hole in the disk bay to accomodate the fan, since the card had been overclocked. Took a whole day, and goes to prove how cramped the A3000 is. The '060 does a much better job at handling heat than the '040. In its original 50 MHz state, it only had a small heatsink, whereas a small fan was added when it was overclocked to 60 or 66 MHz. What INT2 mod, BTW? Perhaps am I just spoiled by Amiga performance, but all my Mac activites under emulation have been unbearably slow. Mind you, nowadays I think that my (68k) Macs are just as slow. It's quite amazing to think that my Centris actually runs at a higher clock speed than my A4000. My IIci just spent the last few hours running Ghostview, recoding a plain PS file into a PDF. Hm, the PS was just 4072721 bytes, whereas the PDF turned out at 7697180 bytes. It's a classic PDF, BTW, since it's the manual for a DECstation. =) I also did an Amiga-related find today: a Commodore 1010 external disk drive at 15 crowns. Bulking big thing. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Alle meine Noten bringen mich nicht aus den N?ten, und ich schreibe noten ?berhaupt nur aus N?ten. --- Ludwig van Beethoven

On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 10:48:16AM -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: Prepare extra time. In the organized chaos that is the VCF, things seem to take longer than you expect (well, for me, anyway). That's especially a problem if you want to exhibit and buy stuff and talk with friends and see the speeches. -- Derek

Actually, that's *not* the Constitution... It's the Articles of Confederation. Different document that predates the Constitution by about ten years. Jim Sellam Ismail wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: Apparently you received the same basic education, with regards to history, that, or better than, most of our politicians received. I recon that if most of our politicrats were asked what such concepts as freedom and liberty mean, or what the objectives of the founding fathers were, one would just get a response like "huh?" or "I don't think that I understand the question." *** The Truth about the 4th of July in America *** The 4th of July in America has degenerated into a big hypocritical joke. People are out celebrating just to celebrate, not giving a damn about the revolution and related ideas that they're supposedly celebrating. Our pea-brained, tax-hungry, freedom and liberty opposed politicians have the audacity to ride in 4th of July parades where foolish people cheer them on instead of booing them and tossing rotten eggs, or worse, at them. The 4th of July holiday is now all about nationalism, not patriotism, as flag waving loonies cheer on their tyrannical oppressors. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

Wasn't that the one by Francis Schottky? John A. <g>

Pretty much most people have given in and said the hell with the fireworks - they've been so harrassed about them on "public service" commercials, laws, etc and when they go to a fireworks stand they see the prices for cheap crap that spits some sparks and just say the hell with it. It's quiet here in rural KY too and the local displays really suck. No more of the aerial "booms" that used to be part of the aerial displays - our wonderful city and county governments have restricted their use to just at dusk, so as not to piss off any of the people that don't give a rat's behind and want to go to sleep at 8pm and not be bothered. I have a little surprise for my neighbors...my last trip into Tennessee yielded a large box of very loud fireworks and they won't be lit until I am. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of R. D. Davis -> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 2:00 PM -> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: 4th of July Hypocricy (was: OT Celebration) -> -> -> On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > Imagine having a neighbor kid hear "Star Spangled Banner" and -> ask "what song -> > is that?" - and he went to a PRIVATE school. -> -> Wow! It sounds as though that boy's parents need to get him enrolled -> in a tour of Ft. McHenry! ...if they know what that is, of course. -> -> It seems so strange for it to be so quiet on the 4th these days. -> I wonder -> if other parts of the US are as quiet as it is here in this suburb of -> Maryland. -> -> Back when I was a kid, kids used to be running around shooting off cap -> guns (I guess they're illegal now, thanks to the blasted tyranical -> politically correct politicians) and lighting firecrackersd and M80s, -> then, have we'd a cook-out followed by some marshmallow roasting and a -> watermellon seed-spitting contest/battle, which was followed later on -> in the evening with our own fireworks... fountains, exploding tanks, -> bottle-rockets, whistling rockets, and other small pyrotechnic -> displays such as pin-wheels, etc. :-) -> -> Of course, even back then it was marginally illegal here in Maryland; -> we had to either have fireworks brought back from someplace like South -> Carolina or else drive out west to where Maryland, Virgiana and West -> Virginia meet and look for small stores in Virginia just over the -> border that were selling the fireworks. -> -> Did you ever think about what the real reason for the personal -> fireworks bans might be? Most likely it's not about safety---after -> all sparklers, which are legal, are rather dangerous; the real reason -> for the bans being as follows: anything that goes boom might give -> people bad ideas as to what they can do, and thus make them think more -> vividly about the revolution, tyrannical, tax-hungry and corrupt -> politicians, and certain words of Thomas Jefferson about an uprising -> every so often to keep this a free nation. Such thoughts ought not be -> thunk by good little citizens, what? -> -> -- -> Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & -> other animals: -> All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're -> above Nature & -> rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma -> to justify such -> http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. ->

It all supports the Californian conclusion that "you can't legislate good sense." It's worth noting, however, that the U.S. is about the only industrialized country in the world that bends over as far as it does to protect those who are STUPID while doing absolutely nothing to protect the rest of us from them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" &lt;foo(a)siconic.com&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 1:32 PM Subject: OT: RE: 4th of July Hypocricy (was: OT Celebration)

I think the most offensive law in Oz is the requirement that all citizens vote. I do have a question, you have to show up to the polling place, is it required that you ACTUALLY vote for anyone on the ballot? Jim Davis. Geoff Roberts wrote: <snip>

Jim Davis wrote: No - there is no way they can know who wrote "fsck all politicians" on an otherwise empty ballot paper - is there? and in Aus you may also find your vote is still legal even if you vote different from intructions. I.e. in some elections, all you need to do is vote 1 and only one. In other cases, they have specifically outlawed (= your vote is not counted). I am reminded with all the USA 4th July discussion of the Cobb cartoon for the USA bicentennial year. Background is a row of missiles, each number with a differeent year pre and post, but for 1976(?), the missile was replace with fireworks. The caption - now is a time to celebrate your rights, not exercise them. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc(a)woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services <lan/wan, linux/unix, novell> "People without trees are like fish without clean water"

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Davis" &lt;jimdavis(a)gorge.net&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 3:43 PM Subject: Re: 4th of July Hypocricy (was: OT Celebration) citizens vote. Mixed reaction to that here. At least the govt is elected by virtually all of the eligible voters. It's mildy amusing that less than half of eligible voters in US elections actually bother to vote. required You must attend a polling place, and have your name crossed off. You are handed ballot papers, initialled by the issuing officer, theoretically, you can stick them straight in the ballot box and walk out. If you do proceed to a booth, don't mark the papers, and place them in the ballot box, that's ok too. This means an informal vote, but since you didn't want to vote anyway.... Basically, the law is so that people will show up to vote. What they do then is up to them, but most people take the attitude that since they are there, they might as well vote. They are talking about requiring people to show id for the next election, instead of just telling them who you are, which is the case at the moment. But you don't get an electoral official looking over your shoulder, though tou can ask for someone to accompany you to the booth to ensure that your vote is correctly filled out if you wish, can be anyone over 18, not necessarily an official. Cheers Geoff in Oz

Now that the GOV is getting into everyone's lives sufficiently to ensure that everybody can, if they wish, and if they have kids in school, have a computer, internet access, etc, (hasn't been passed yet, or if it has, I missed it) with GOV subsidy, they could, and perhaps should, require that everyone vote. In fact, they could replace themselves with a direct, rather than representative, democracy. That way, all the legislature would have to do is put forth the information required to make the decision, and then discontinue your TV service until you passed a test (more than they now have to do) on the key points of each issue. That way people who pay for PORK would have to vote for it, i.e. know that they're paying for someone's gravy train. Folks who want to vote would do so, and folks who didn't want to familiarize themselves with the details of each issue couldn't, but until they passed the test, they couldn't watch the hockey game or soap opera either. You'd have to spend ten minutes a week, I'd guess, but you wouldn't have to stand in line or go out in the rain. There'd be a lot more knowledge behind the votes than there presently is, that's for sure. Moreover, the various counties wouldn't have to buy expensive voting machines. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Dereksen" &lt;vance(a)ikickass.org&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:05 PM Subject: Re: 4th of July Hypocricy (was: OT Celebration)

http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsd.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsd.jpg

On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Mike wrote: Um, a more common than butt-cracks disk controller and a too blurry to tell what it is board but looks like it also might be a third-party disk controller or maybe a printer interface. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

Hi, sorry for the false start... Anyone recognize these guys? (each shot also has a floppy controller for scale) 1. card with a buncha empty sockets, one eprom labled 'Tymac Controls Corp' http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsb.jpg 2. Fourth Dimension Board 2 http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsc.jpg 3. SSM Microcomputer APPIC http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsd.jpg Thanks! - Mike: dogas(a)bellsouth.net

Hi, sorry for the false start... Anyone recognize these guys? (each shot also has a floppy controller for scale) 1. card with a buncha empty sockets, one eprom labled 'Tymac Controls Corp' http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsb.jpg 2. Fourth Dimension Board 2 http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsc.jpg 3. SSM Microcomputer APPIC http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsd.jpg Thanks! - Mike: dogas(a)bellsouth.net

Hi, sorry for the false start... Anyone recognize these guys? (each shot also has a floppy controller for scale) 1. card with a buncha empty sockets, one eprom labled 'Tymac Controls Corp' http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsb.jpg 2. Fourth Dimension Board 2 http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsc.jpg 3. SSM Microcomputer APPIC http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/A2cardsd.jpg Thanks! - Mike: dogas(a)bellsouth.net

On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, joe wrote: IMHO, that is a pretty good analysis of at least part of the problem, Joe. It is my belief that the Congress, what with `motor voter' et al, has made it far too easy to vote. The net result being a vast number of voters who have not the slightest notion of who or what they are voting for or why as they have not spent thirty seconds thinking about it before appearing at the polls. Likely the very old rule that only property owners had the right to vote deserved to be overturned, but it certainly put a more thoughtful group of voters at the polls. - don

On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, joe wrote: Or we should force the news media to be more useful than reporting about what politician is fucking who and instead have segments on proper procedure for voting. The problem is ignorance, and the solution is education, not more ignorance. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, joe wrote: Bringing this sort of on topic (barely) I recently found some voting equipment in a local electronics surplus ship that made it's way all the way from Dade County, Florida :) One was a punch for punching selections on a ballot, and the other seemed to be some sort of electronic bar code type device, or perhaps just a simple light-gun and photo-diode implement. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

Geoff Roberts wrote: Oops, I just came back from Texas, and they now have no helmet law. Used to have it and then didn't, but once did before that and will probably flip and then flop back once again. Or reacting to the current whim. Eric

fire to their councils that Vintage Computer Festival -------------------- http://www.vintage.org I like the approach used in Missouri, you can buy anything you want, you just can't fire it off in the state. Right. I still have a few bricks of crackers from my last trip there, at least for a few more hours.

You would just love it at Leisure World, seriously, look into it.

As I understand it, the first video game ever was space war, written at MIT. Does anyone here know anything about a port of space war for the HP2115? Many years ago I purchased a 2115 from the MIT equipment exchange. Paper lables on the front panel suggest that the machine at one time played space war. I've kept the core unlatered, but the idea of reverse engineering whatever code may (or may not) be stored in core seems impractical. The machine had all its I/O boards removed before I got to it. I'm tempted to simply ignore the original contents of the core at this point, and load something interesting for VCF East, but before I alter it, I'd like to ask if anyone has heard of space war running on old HP mini's?

IBM S/36s? war, written at MIT. for the HP2115? According to an unverified source: SPACEWAR: n. A space-combat simulation game, inspired by E. E. "Doc" Smith's "Lensman" books, in which two spaceships duel around a central sun, shooting torpedoes at each other and jumping through hyperspace. This game was first implemented on the PDP-1 at MIT in 1960--61. SPACEWAR aficionados formed the core of the early hacker culture at MIT. Nine years later, a descendant of the game motivated Ken Thompson to build, in his spare time on a scavenged PDP-7, the operating system that became {{UNIX}}. Less than nine years after that, SPACEWAR was commercialized as one of the first video games; descendants are still {feep}ing in video arcades everywhere.

My point was that AD was a computer game, and a lot of people played it on teletypes. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Mike Cheponis wrote:

Must be rather loosely based. The good Doctor never used hyperspace in the Lensman series (IIRC, in none of his books, unless you count a foray into the fourth dimension in "Skylark ov Valeron". Wonderful author. I used to play a version of Space War on the HP-41.

After a week of vacation dedicated almost entirely to getting an HP2000 Access machine operational, it's actually starting to get very close to coming together! Both 2100 processors pass diags, all the associated cards pass diags, the 7900A is humming along perfectly, and at long last the 7970E tape drive is working fine. I even got the 2000 Access IOP firmware installed into the IOP cpu. After years I'm now so close I can taste it! Here's whats still on the to-do/missing/dead list... I need four of the 12566 GRD TRU +/- boards for the processor interconnect kit. I had all four tested & running a few months ago, but at least one of the 12566 boards died - so, anyone have some 12566 boards they'll part with? I should need only 1, but 2 would make it easier to retest the remaining boards. Next, the main cpu needs 32Kw and the IOP needs 16kw, 24kw, or 32kw depending on the I/O configuration - I suspect I can get by with the 16kw setup because I'm not going to load the comms (RJE) software modules and will only have a 16 user system. I only have 32kw total because 4 of the 8kw core boards are dead, and one of the 16K ID boards is toast. I've done the testing with 16kw in each machine, but this won't let me load the O/S. I need two 8K core boards at a minimum, preferrably four plus a 16K ID board. The only board in the entire setup that hasn't been tested and proven to be working is the 12920/12921 asynchronous multiplexor (3 board set). I have two sets of these boards, but one I suspect from the outset isn't alive (the burned resistor on the card was a giveaway). With any luck, the other set will test ok, otherwise I need to locate another or repair them. It's not a requirement, but one thing that would be nice to have is the "HP 13206A 2000/Access communications processor firmware diagnostic". Once the OS is loaded, it would be pretty obvious if the firmware isn't working, but this is the one diagnostic I'm missing. The paper tape is 13206-16001, or if it's on different media the DSN is 101016. So there's the state of the 2000/Access project, I'll keep folks posted when it actually boots up the O/S (although you'll probably be able to hear the shouts of "woohoo!" from out of state). Regards, Jay West

Careful now! Last year a fellow right here in the neighborhood shot his neighbor for making too much late-night fireworks noise ... it wasn't on the 4th, but you know how some morons are with their fireworks. As far as I'm concerned, you've got every right to make all the noise you want ... right up to the point where I have to listen to it. That goes for fireworks, fighting with your spouse, yelling at your kid or your dog, or playing your stereo. If I hear any of that, I file a complaint. I figure a loud motorcycle is fair target practice, and if one shoots the speakers out of a car playing its radio too loudly, the most he should be charged with is discharging a firearm into a public nuissance. If you want to swing your arms, be sure you're far enough away from your neighbor that you don't irritate him. That's why I back the mandatory concealed weapons initiative. You get one free kill at birth, can carry a gun at age 15, and don't have to tell anybody whether you've exercised your right yet. An armed society is a polite society, doncha know ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" &lt;rhblake(a)bigfoot.com&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 1:30 PM Subject: RE: 4th of July Hypocricy (was: OT Celebration)

At 10:38 PM 7/4/01 -0400, you wrote: No they haven't.

Chuck McManis wrote: Perhaps they have and haven't? Eric

My dad used to tell me about 4th of July when he was a kid. They used to play "war" games with roman candles, and not some little sissy version, but 2 ft long tubes that would shoot a fireball quite a distance. Everybody with a gun would fire off a few patriotic rounds too. Now to have a little fun you have to go to Iraq or something.

Well, a tour of Ft. McHenry would't be enough ... Keep in mind that the moron in the White House went to a private school, too, and I wouldn't be surprised if he had to be coached to recognize our national anthem right up to the time he began to attend baseball games regularly. Keep in mind, that it was in the early '50's that the line "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance, a fact which wasn't lost on me, as a new imigrant, though it's likely a number of native born kids in my then 3rd grade class missed it. I believe that if folks would take religion out of politics, as we want everybody else, particularly the Iraqi's and Iranians, in the world to do, we'd be better off. I have my own beliefs but certainly don't want to be just another of those annoying twits who's got to try them out on someone else to see if they make sense. It reflects a pretty funny way of "believing" if you ask me, which I don't recommend. See below, plz Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" &lt;rdd(a)smart.net&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 12:59 PM Subject: RE: 4th of July Hypocricy (was: OT Celebration) Some of those same things were legally practiced when I was aged <10. Frankly, I appreciate the quiet so far today. There'll be plenty of noise tonight when the druggies are shooting at the cops and vice-versa, and the fire department is out trying to keep the fireworks fanatics from burning down the town, and the ambulances are hauling off the injured bodies, many of which will be repaired at taxpayer expense because the same idiots who isist on using illegal fireworks aren't smart enough to know how to do it without messing somebody or something up. I'll be out in the yard with my garden hose, putting out the pop-bottle rockets on my roof, courtesy of the guy across the street, even though they're illegal anywhere in the state. It's not just illegal to discharge them, it's illegal to have them, yet folks do. Now, those same guys will holler if, say, somebody has a dog off-leash, or not wearing his collar with rabies tags ... It's funny how many "Law and Order" types think it's OK to thumb their noses at some laws, depending on their own preferences. Such thoughts normally aren't "thunk" by persons of greater-than-room-temperature I.Q. The reason there's a right to keep and bear arms is that if private individuals don't have that right, the government will be the only one with guns, and they've already got their boots on our necks. The only requirements ought to be that in order to purchase and own a gun one must have (1) scored 101 or higher on a standard IQ test, (2) held a job for at least 3 consecutive years of his life, (3) hasn't ever committed a felony or a misdemeaner involving violence, and (4) demonstrate by regular blood, urine, or hair tests, at his own expense, that he/she doesn't use illegal chemicals, or alcohol to illegal levels. Failing any of these qualifications, even once, should permanently and forever disqualify him from going within 10 meters of a firearm not being used against him. Punishment for violation should be immediate immersion in molten iron. A monthly list of apologies should be issued for cases in which there might have been an error. Further, I believe that every citizen should be required to demonstrate his ability to read, write, and spell well enough that he could write the Declaration of Independence without spelling errors, repeat it, pronouncing each word correctly, defining each word correctly, and by paraphrasing every paragraph correctly in context. Failure to do so, even once, should result in that citizen's enrollment in a class to which he/she will be confined until they repeatedly pass these tests three times in succession, only after which they'll be allowed to eat, drink, or go to the bathroom. Not everybody feels this way, however. Some may even believe that's a good thing. such

"R. D. Davis" wrote: Not the inner harbor of Baltimore. Geez, I live here and have never been. I'm feeling ashamed and now will have to make a day trip of it. Ripken's last year in the big leagues and I'm feeling guilty about Ft. McHenry and having never seen it! Fireworks can legally be purchased in DC or VA. You sound like a Texan misplaced in the libberal state of MD. Go west old man and be free... Eric

We saw exactly how partisan the Supreme court was. And how elections of our alledged choices are bought and sold like so much raw meat on the chicago merck. I voted for none of the ruling party, The only way to solve this problem involves much blood and gunpowder and won't happen till the economy tanks in a major way. Sorry, very very sorry. Jim D. Chuck McManis wrote:

Sellam Ismail wrote: Sounds like East Palo Alto or Compton. Eric

Sellam Ismail wisely wrote: Well said! All that most of the present politicians in the U.S. appear to be concerned with today are taxation, oppression, lining their pockets with cash, and being pawns of business interests. Why don't they just rename the USA to something like the United Police State of America and have it over with? Back something slightly more on-topic: how many here, when giving further tought to the pros and cons of computers get the feeling that we'd all be better off if computers and some related technology didn't exist? I'm thinking of those cameras attached to computers which are being used in Florida to identify and track people, based on their facial features, walking on the streets and sidewalks, in an attempt to "catch criminals." In other words, they're comparing people's faces to pictures of criminals in a database. Those seen talking with suspected criminals, or those with similar faces, become suspects as well. Very Orwellian. Why people aren't shooting at the cameras and protesting against their use, I don't know or understand. I guess that "good little citizens of the state" (foolish, senseless, people) ought not do such things. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: That's how I was hoping someone would reply! :-) Please note that I was playing a bit of devil's advocate when I wrote that. It's not the computers, guns, cars, knives or rocks that are dangerous, but the people who use them for harmful purposes. If we didn't have computers, they'd surely find a way to do something equally bad, would then not? Indeed; well said. Yes, supposedly. Yes, alas; it does appear that way. If only enough people would wake up to what's going on and send clear messages to their politicians, through effigies, letters, telephone calls, protests, shouting at them when they enter and leave their offices, and voting... the only problem is that at the polls, our choice is often limited to the lesser of two evils. There are, at least thus far, many legal, and non-violent, ways to annoy, anger, intimidate and frighten our elected officials who are harming us---not for the purpose of harming them, but just to wake them up to reality and let then know that they need to clean up their acts. To quote Benjamin Franklin on this subject: "Those people who would surrender some of their freedoms to obtain safety deserve neither freedom nor safety." (1776) I remember when a certain politician showed up at a local polling place a little over a decade ago. When he selected me as the first citizen to speak to upon getting out of his limousine, he made a little mistake. Right away, I put him on the spot about why I wouldn't vote for him, such as his being for high taxes, etc. Hey, why be respectful of the office of someone who doesn't earn my respect? The funny thing was, his guards sort of turned their backs as said what I had to say to him, not shooing me away. Anyway, he got so mad that he got right back into his limo, didn't attempt any more campaigning there, and gave me the "finger," as his car left the parking lot. :-) If more people would do such things, just think of the changes that we could make. Yes; excellent point Sellam! True. If, alas, we didn't have so many apathetic people, it would be much easier to stop those people who use technology for "big brotherish," Orwellian, purposes. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

--- "Wayne M. Smith" &lt;wmsmith(a)earthlink.net&gt; wrote: I don't feel like clogging this busy and mostly useful list with gun issues, but in the case of a DECstation 78, I've never seen one, so I have nothing to say. OTOH, if someone else is _talking_ about a VT-78, I'll be listening intently. I have a nearly perfect sample of the PDP-8 line (just missing a PDP-8/S and some form of VT-78). Since I doubt I'll ever get an -S, I'll have to hold on that some day I might find a VT-78 or WS-78. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

This from http://www.jagshouse.com/sales.html sorry for the double post, but I forgot to mail this more complete message and have been wondering why nobody was talking about it. (First item is already mine) Apple Macintosh Application Environment (from Apple Computer Inc)- for HP Series 700 workstations running HP - UX 9.0x - CD ROM. run Mac apps on your Unix workstation (Virtual macinotsh) - includes manual. EXTREMELY RARE!! $20 Apple Macintosh Application Environment(from Apple Computer Inc) - for SunSparc stations running Slaris 2.3 or later - CD ROM . run Mac apps on your Unix workstation (Virtual macinotsh) - includes manual. EXTREMELY RARE!! $20 Apple Peripheral Interface Guide - Apple II, II, Lisa, MacXL, Macintosh Up to Quadra Macs (1991) - Extremely rare for service techs eyes only! $20

At 12:38 PM 7/4/01 -0400, you wrote: I know that I'd have a lot more time! Ebay, the internet, mailing lists and the like EAT time! WHAT??? where did you hear that? I live in Florida and I've never heard it. You'd guess wrong too! We have very few cameras here. The ones that we have are mainly located in banks, ATMs, convience stores and the like. We have very few cameras in public areas. FWIW I went to London a couple of years ago and I was amazed at how many cameras they had. Nearly every street corner has one, the Underground (sub-way) stations are full of them and every store had a battery of them. Also I saw something in the news about the UK police setting up a video recognition system that's supposed to be tied in the the cameras in the Underground stations. It's supposed to look for known wanted criminals and alert the police if any of them are spotted in the stations. Does anyone know if that system has gone into opeation or how effective it is? Joe

"R. D. Davis" wrote: [ ... ] > Matt Drudge, the investigative news reporter who has a radio talk show. > You mean, Matt Drudge the gossip columnist and radio talk show host who likes to pretend that he's a journalist ...

Jerome Fine replies: Before anyone suggests any additional solutions to stop "criminal activity", I suggest that a very detailed study be made of how the US handled prohibition and its subsequent abolition. From how I understand prohibition was handled, the first step was to concede that it was impossible to enforce. After that, everything else was probably mishandled - as politicians are apt to do - and the end result was a lot of unemployed criminals (bootleggers) who had made a lot of money and had built up an infrastructure that needed to be used - to make more money for the ex-bootleggers. Maybe similar to what happened in Russia after the collapse in 1990. I also think that there is a strong link between the lack of social justice within so-called democracies and the number of people who commit crimes. So that while the link between the lack of social justice in a dictatorship and the number of people who commit crimes is easier to understand and see in a dictatorship (either the left like communism or the right like fascism), I suggest that countries which have a higher than average crime rate (and therefore more people in jail on average than other countries) should look at their priorities. A repressive and less fare criminal justice system (especially in Canada for the poor, blacks and native North Americans and in the US for the poor and racial minorities - I get the impression that there are no longer enough native North Americans in the US to cause a problem any longer - I have not mentioned any other countries that are so-called democracies since I don't know enough about the local conditions) is definitely a substitute for spending on social justice (access to health care in the US is just one example), but I wonder if supporting a non-productive prison population is more effective than providing a minimum of health care? And while the above observations are very simplistic, I also see the same attitudes reflected in the activities that Microsoft practices that were found to be illegal. I don't know which is worse? Illegal activity by the government, by companies or by individuals? I do suggest that in many cases, like with drug problems referred to above in the US, any attempt to suppress just the symptoms rather than the cause is likely going to fail. Any even with a program that is providing a vital service, such as with health care - who is checking to see if the service is carefully and safely delivered? Are there any test cases fed into the system (blind tests would be absolutely necessary) to determine how effective the system is being run? For example, do the police ever have to account for having made errors in how they handle a case or a nurse ever have to account for patient care or a doctor on treatment options. A 1% to 2% blind test case load for every institution to determine the extent to which errors are made should be mandatory in my opinion just as we have checksums on EVERY disk block so that we can determine if any errors are taking place. If we can checksum every disk block and insist on error rates of less than 1 in a trillion, why should a hospital be allowed to refuse to audit all care and accept blind tests for a minimum of at least 1% ot their case load? Likewise, lab tests, police, welfare offices, vets, politicians, lawyers, programmers, etc. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine

It's like recommending that a 120 TTon nuke on TelAviv or Damascus as a solution to middle-east strife. It would solve a number of problems. The bones of contention there, including the bulk of the world's oil supply would be essentially gone, (everything from Tehran to well past Cairo, including parts of Turkey, etc, would be under about a km of glass), thereby reducing the air pollution attributable to petroleum use, and it wouldn't be safe to go there for a couple of thousand years, so folks lucky enough to survive here on Earth would probably forget about that stuff. It's possible someone might come up with a solution more compatible with the interests of the folks who are central to the mid-east struggle, however, but this would certainly end the fighting. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" &lt;foo(a)siconic.com&gt; To: &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 8:15 AM Subject: Re: OT Celebration (Not intended to be offensive, possible humor)

You need to look around more... cameras are getting to be everywhere... and they are getting to be prevalent enough that news shows are starting to do segments about them and the privacy issues... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: We should also make it the punishment for being a curmudgeonly old bastard. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

On Sat, 7 Jul 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: Yes, but some of us will fare it better than others. Yeah, we'd all be reduced to sitting at home and spewing forth obnoxious missives about how our fellow man should be immersed in molten iron for spitting on the sidewalk. Get some Viagra, dude. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

On Sat, 7 Jul 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: Well, you can be curmudgeonly, but you're certainly not a bastard ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

Megan skrev: Here, the national museum still hasn't been granted the right to use cameras in the exhibition halls, despite that several oeuvres were stolen last year in an elaborate coup. The Swedish laws about computer registers and cameras are very severe, to the extent of threatening the existence of BBSes and web cameras. There are traffic cameras, but they're preceded by signs warning drivers of them. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts.