20 Jul
2001
20 Jul
'01
11:29 a.m.
ISDN
My nightmares have almost subsided from these installations. If you hear
the work ISDN start drinking immediately. The installation crews want to
leave all of the problems to the service crews. Configuring ISDN modems is
a nightmare, SPID=profanity.
ISDN == I'm Still Drinking, Ned...
20 Jul
20 Jul
7:20 p.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
ISDN == I'm Still Drinking, Ned...
ISDN == It Still Does Nothing
ISDN == It Stops the Damn Network
ISDN == Insanely Slow Download Network
ISDN == Into Skull Driving Nails
ISDN == I Still Don't kNow
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
21 Jul
21 Jul
4:40 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
I'm not sure what the current status is, but back in '95 or so, we had enough
ISDN customers to warrant a server just for them. Our customers certainly
didn't complain back then, since ISDN offered flexibility and performance not
available on a DS0 service costing 5x as much.
I was somewhat surprised, after attempting to get ISDN service here at my house,
as DSL wasn't yet being offered, to learn that Emanuel Stiebler has ISDN at his
somewhat remote mountain home. With all the limits on distance from the C.O.
I'd have been the last to expect to get ISDN service so far from town.
Nevertheless, if you have any questions about ISDN and the quality of service,
I'd say it might be useful to ask him. Everyone else I know who once used ISDN
has gone to DSL or some other level of service. My neighbor has a really
high-bandwidth microwave link to some obscure ISP and he tells me he's getting
the equivalent (in bursts) of DS3 rates. I've yet to visit his newly organized
facility, but with the hardware I've seen him bring in over the past half-year,
I don't doubt his claim.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" <jss(a)subatomix.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 10:20 PM
Subject: RE: DSL Woes
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
ISDN == I'm Still Drinking, Ned...
ISDN == It Still Does Nothing
ISDN == It Stops the Damn Network
ISDN == Insanely Slow Download Network
ISDN == Into Skull Driving Nails
ISDN == I Still Don't kNow
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)ou.edu
4:56 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
DSl won't be offered in my suburban area (21 miles from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
James
Richard Erlacher wrote:
I'm not sure what the current status is, but back in '95 or so, we had enough
ISDN customers to warrant a server just for them. Our customers certainly
didn't complain back then, since ISDN offered flexibility and performance not
available on a DS0 service costing 5x as much.
I was somewhat surprised, after attempting to get ISDN service here at my house,
as DSL wasn't yet being offered, to learn that Emanuel Stiebler has ISDN at his
somewhat remote mountain home. With all the limits on distance from the C.O.
I'd have been the last to expect to get ISDN service so far from town.
Nevertheless, if you have any questions about ISDN and the quality of service,
I'd say it might be useful to ask him. Everyone else I know who once used ISDN
has gone to DSL or some other level of service. My neighbor has a really
high-bandwidth microwave link to some obscure ISP and he tells me he's getting
the equivalent (in bursts) of DS3 rates. I've yet to visit his newly organized
facility, but with the hardware I've seen him bring in over the past half-year,
I don't doubt his claim.
Dick
5:23 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
I've got some doubts about the business model into which the DSL and Cable
services fit. Here in Denver, AT&T is the cable provider, and they make it
pretty clear that the actual data bandwidth can be pretty low in a physical
block that had lots of connections. The "phone company" (QWEST) offers the
intermittent-connection service that I have, and they offer a
persistent-connection for about $10 more per month. I don't see how, as they
have to support more and more DSL connections, they figure on keeping the
bandwidth at greater than 256Kbps in either direction, as they are apparently
mandated to do. Back in '95, a T1, essentially equivalent to 6 minimally
provisioned DSL links, cost $980 per month for the connection, plus $40 per
channel for the bandwidth. There really isn't that much more bandwidth today
than there was in '95, is there? This scheme makes them use quite a lot more
bandwidth than they used to, yet they don't get any more money for it.
How's this supposed to work over the long haul?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "James L. Rice" <jrice(a)texoma.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: DSL Woes
DSl won't be offered in my suburban area (21 miles
from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
James
Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what the current status is, but back in '95 or so, we had
enough
> ISDN customers to warrant a server just for them.
Our customers certainly
> didn't complain back then, since ISDN offered flexibility and performance
not
> available on a DS0 service costing 5x as much.
>
> I was somewhat surprised, after attempting to get ISDN service here at my
house,
> as DSL wasn't yet being offered, to learn
that Emanuel Stiebler has ISDN at
his
> somewhat remote mountain home. With all the
limits on distance from the
C.O.
> I'd have been the last to expect to get ISDN
service so far from town.
>
> Nevertheless, if you have any questions about ISDN and the quality of
service,
> I'd say it might be useful to ask him.
Everyone else I know who once used
ISDN
> has gone to DSL or some other level of service.
My neighbor has a really
> high-bandwidth microwave link to some obscure ISP and he tells me he's
getting
> the equivalent (in bursts) of DS3 rates.
I've yet to visit his newly
organized
> facility, but with the hardware I've seen him
bring in over the past
half-year,
I don't
doubt his claim.
Dick
5:55 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
DSl won't be offered in my suburban area (21 miles
from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
James
The problem is the ISDN in NJ can run you hundreds of dollars in
time charges... where DSL is flat rate per month.
Bill
6:17 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
You folks might want to ask your local provider about IDSL. IDSL uses
ISDN technology but is always on and here it is flat rate. Not as cheap
as DSL but not nearly as expensive as ISDN.
George Rachor
=========================================================
George L. Rachor Jr. george(a)rachors.com
Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com
United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Bill Pechter wrote:
DSl won't
be offered in my suburban area (21 miles from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
James
The problem is the ISDN in NJ can run you hundreds of dollars in
time charges... where DSL is flat rate per month.
Bill
6:42 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
What advantages does this ISDL offer over ISDN or DSL?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Leo Rachor Jr." <george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: DSL Woes
You folks might want to ask your local provider about
IDSL. IDSL uses
ISDN technology but is always on and here it is flat rate. Not as cheap
as DSL but not nearly as expensive as ISDN.
George Rachor
=========================================================
George L. Rachor Jr. george(a)rachors.com
Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com
United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Bill Pechter wrote:
DSl
won't be offered in my suburban area (21 miles from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
James
The problem is the ISDN in NJ can run you hundreds of dollars in
time charges... where DSL is flat rate per month.
Bill
9:24 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
Here in Dallas, Southwestern Bell ISDN service is flat rate, no time
charges at all. I have two lines at my house, one router goes to the
internet, and one to my office in downtown Dallas. That one I use to
connect to our lan and through there, I bounce out to six remote sites
as well.
Bill Pechter wrote:
DSl won't be offered in my suburban area (21
miles from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
James
The problem is the ISDN in NJ can run you hundreds of dollars in
time charges... where DSL is flat rate per month.
Bill 
6:14 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
I had ISDN before cable modem was available in my area. I had the usual
"didn't work the first time" problems that everyone has heard of over the
years, eventually traced to a incorrect setting in the ISDN switch.
While the ISDN itself was almost always working, between firmware problems
on the terminal adapter and the Cisco 5200 on the other end causing easily
reproducable disconnections, I think cable modem/VPN connection to work
has been just as reliable at most times and much faster. (Running X or
other chatty protocols over ISDN was a recipe for frequent disconnection)
The notable exception is during storm related power problems: with ISDN my
connection to work would stay up with the Terminal adapter plugged into
the UPS, but since the cable company does not have their equipment in the
neighborhoods backed up in any way I am disconnected with power problems
anywhere in the local loop.
Speed has not been an issue with cable, it has typically been faster at
its worst than 128k ISDN at its best.
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, James L. Rice wrote:
DSl won't be offered in my suburban area (21 miles
from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
James
Richard Erlacher wrote:
--
I'm not sure what the current status is, but back in '95 or so, we had enough
ISDN customers to warrant a server just for them. Our customers certainly
didn't complain back then, since ISDN offered flexibility and performance not
available on a DS0 service costing 5x as much.
I was somewhat surprised, after attempting to get ISDN service here at my house,
as DSL wasn't yet being offered, to learn that Emanuel Stiebler has ISDN at his
somewhat remote mountain home. With all the limits on distance from the C.O.
I'd have been the last to expect to get ISDN service so far from town.
Nevertheless, if you have any questions about ISDN and the quality of service,
I'd say it might be useful to ask him. Everyone else I know who once used ISDN
has gone to DSL or some other level of service. My neighbor has a really
high-bandwidth microwave link to some obscure ISP and he tells me he's getting
the equivalent (in bursts) of DS3 rates. I've yet to visit his newly organized
facility, but with the hardware I've seen him bring in over the past half-year,
I don't doubt his claim.
Dick
8:03 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
At 08:56 AM 7/21/01 -0500, James wrote:
DSl won't be offered in my suburban area (21 miles
from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
In that case consider getting a T-1 line. They are a _lot_ cheaper these
days, don't have distance limits and if you put an 802.11B repeater on your
roof and sell internet access to your neighbors to cover the cost. I've
often thought about getting a T-1 line pulled to the street and having half
a dozen of us geeks split the cost.
--Chuck
9:26 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
Here a T-1 would cost $800 per month, plus the cost of the CSU/DSU and
router. I pay only $55.00 per month for my ISDN's and the routers were
only a couple a hundred bucks each.
Chuck McManis wrote:
At 08:56 AM 7/21/01 -0500, James wrote:
DSl won't be offered in my suburban area (21
miles from DT Dallas) until
3rd Qtr 2002, so I opted for ISDN. It was insanely easy to set up, it
costs about the same as DSL, but it never goes down. The download speed
is slower than DSL or cable, unlike most of the DSL or cable subscribers
around Dallas, the speed is a constant. My brother-in-law, who lives to
play TribesII or Unreal, has a cable modem that slows down drastically
at night when everyone is home and online. I'll probably get business
class DSL (5 static IP's and a dedicated router, 1.5mb dl. 384 up)when
it becomes available here, but I may keep the old reliable ISDN as a
backup anyway.
In that case consider getting a T-1 line. They are a _lot_ cheaper these
days, don't have distance limits and if you put an 802.11B repeater on your
roof and sell internet access to your neighbors to cover the cost. I've
often thought about getting a T-1 line pulled to the street and having half
a dozen of us geeks split the cost.
--Chuck
6:40 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
My neighbor has a really high-bandwidth microwave link
to some obscure
ISP
It would probably be out of my price range, but I'd be interested in
finding out what ISP that is.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
8:45 a.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
He's in Nebraska for the weekend, but I'll get a reading when he returns. His
setup involves a rooftop dish that works as both a receiver and transmitter.
The thing's about an 18" dish. This ISP is local, but I suppose there are
others like 'em everywhere. He tells me it costs just under $100 per month.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" <jss(a)subatomix.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: DSL Woes
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
My neighbor has a really high-bandwidth microwave
link to some obscure
ISP
It would probably be out of my price range, but I'd be interested in
finding out what ISP that is.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
6:55 p.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated:
Nevertheless, if you have any questions about ISDN and the quality of service,
I'd say it might be useful to ask him. Everyone else I know who once used ISDN
has gone to DSL or some other level of service. My neighbor has a really
high-bandwidth microwave link to some obscure ISP and he tells me he's getting
the equivalent (in bursts) of DS3 rates. I've yet to visit his newly organized
facility, but with the hardware I've seen him bring in over the past half-year,
I don't doubt his claim.
I used to have ISDN and it was very easy to set up. BellSouth came out,
hooked up a third line [1], and that was the end of their work. I ran the
cable inside and configured the Ascend Pipeline 50 to work on my end, and
the Ascend MAX on the ISP end [2] and had 128kbps up/down and never had a
problem.
Around '94 or '95, ISDN was flat rate, about the cost of two phone lines
($50/month) so it was cost effective back then to have it. Around '97 or
so, the billing rates changed and only the first 300 minutes or so were flat
rate, then BellSouth charged by the minute. It was easy enough to avoid
the minutely charge rate by having the ISP call *me* up, so that's what I
did.
At that time, I had 32 static IP addresses to play around with [3].
That came to an end so I went with Velotel for IDSL [5] as that's all I
could get to where I live.. 144kbps up and down and five static IP
addresses for about $65/month and I could still control the reverse DNS (to
a degree, I had to send in the records). Unfortunately, they used
Northpoint as a DSL provider. @#$@#$!
I then picked up Telocity and for some odd reason (I think they actually
use BellSouth DSL) I could suddenly get ADSL at 1.5Mbps down and 400kbps up.
Wonderful! Except for the single static IP address, which sucks (when you
are used to, and using most of, 32 static IP addresses), but has given me
the chance to play around with Linux as a firewall and router (on a 10yo 486
Compaq with three NICs [6]).
-spc (And Linux itself is almost, if not already, 10 years old 8-)
[1] I had a voice line and a modem line. I didn't want to loose the
modem line until ISDN worked, and afterwards, a friend of mine
offered to pay for the modem line if he could dial into me and go
out my dedicated ISDN line.
[2] I worked at the ISP 8-)
[3] I also fixed the routing the supposed Network Admin set up. I
figured 32 addresses wouldn't be missed. I even set it up so that
I controled the reverse DNS for those 32 addresses [4].
[4] Details available upon request. It's a neat DNS hack.
[5] It's ISDN but without the ISDN tarrifs. I don't pretend to
understand this myself.
[6] One for the Internet, one for my half of the network and one for
my roommate's half of the network.
7:28 p.m.
New subject: DSL Woes
On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:55:55PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:
[5] It's ISDN but without the ISDN tarrifs. I
don't pretend to
understand this myself.
its ISDN signalling over plain copper pair. The reason its so much cheaper
is that the telco doesent have to provide call-handling (144K = the
2 64K B-channels plus the 16K D-channel that normally does call signaling).
Therefore, you can use most semi-decent ISDN TAs for IDSL as well. Its good
at a MUCH longer distance than "normal" DSL, and in some places, is all
you'll
be able to get..
I had ISDN till late '98, went to cablemodem for almost a year, then ADSL
till about a month ago, when i switched back to cablemodem (2meg/485k, at
$50/month... put everything behind a Linksys BEFSR "gateway", and all is
well..)
Bill
--
Bill Bradford
mrbill(a)mrbill.net
Austin, TX
8402
days inactive
8404
days old
16 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
george＠racsys.rt.rain.com -
jrice＠texoma.net -
jss＠subatomix.com -
mrbill＠mrbill.net -
pechter＠bg-tc-ppp1150.monmouth.com -
spc＠conman.org -
thompson＠mail.athenet.net