8 Apr
1998
8 Apr
'98
10:54 a.m.
Since Bill is absent, I'll presume to speak for him and the rest of us
founding members. You'll notice that the name of the list, same as its
charter, is "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers", not
"preservation" although that is something we are all concerned with.
Webster's defines "collect" in this sense as "to collect objects",
which
implicitly requires their acquisition! Blatantly commercial advertisements
are not allowed, but collector for-sale ads are explicitly part of this
newsgroup and are welcomed.
Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens
them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices
than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to
have them advertised here than on Ebay.
Kai
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Davie [SMTP:adavie@mad.scientist.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 6:11 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: my objection to recent postings
I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising
for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this
list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or
ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance.
Surely, the newsgroups and eBay, etc., are an appropriate place for
regular
sales?
A mailing list dealing with the preservation of classic computers is not.
Cheers
A
8 Apr
8 Apr
7:14 a.m.
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11:13 a.m.
Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of
on this list, opens
them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices
than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to
have them advertised here than on Ebay.
The postings that sparked this thread seem to be a couple inviting us
over to Ebay to submit our bids.
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
12:17 p.m.
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11:56 a.m.
I've conducted scads of transactions on ebay and have yet to encounter a
serious problem. I've also sold two items and had good luck with the
buyers. The feedback system really helps buyers and sellers keep tabs on
who's worth buying from or selling to. To keep me on topic, my latest
cool acquisition (on ebay) was a low serial number C128B. Although, I
paid _way_ too much money for it, I didn't have one yet and it looks
cool. /:)
Cheers,
Dan
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Not only that,
but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens
them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices
than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to
have them advertised here than on Ebay.
That might depend on whether you're selling or buying, Kai :-).
More seriously, has anyone here actually conducted a transaction
through Ebay? Did the highest bidder actually make payment in
a timely manner, if you were selling?
Tim.
12:21 p.m.
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote:
...and your motives for same... (I'll explain that in a minute)
I'm venturing in here since this thread started disturbingly close to the
time that I started my 'virtual garage sale', so regardless of if that was
a contributing factor or not I guess I'll wade in...
As I noted in my posting, I wanted to give the group here a shot before I
offered the items anywhere else. (the 'my latest auction on Ebay'
postings give me a royal pain in the netherrealms!)
I for one am a firm believer that the people here probably better
represent "collectors" who are in it more for the preservation of the gear
and (if I dare) love of the history and technology than for the money.
There is little doubt that more money can be made by posting items (of
general interest) to Ebay or similar places (witness the $2k+ Altair sales
of late) but in many cases I would just as rather see the gear go to
someone who will appreciate it for what it is than to some "retro-hacker
wannabe" who has a bunch of money burning a hole in their pocket.
(this was the part about motives BTW)
Of course, if anyone where wants to offer $2-3k for an Altair... (sorry,
could not resist) B^}
But maybe thats just me...
Not only that,
but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens
them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices
than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to
have them advertised here than on Ebay.
That might depend on whether you're selling or buying, Kai :-). More seriously, has anyone here actually conducted a
transaction
through Ebay? Did the highest bidder actually make payment in
a timely manner, if you were selling?
I've done a large amount of both buying and selling thru Ebay and with the
exception of one (minor) dispute on a purchase (a misunderstood
communication) I have had no problems either way.
To date, items I have offered for sale on Ebay have been things that were
unrelated or inappropiate (due to age, or lack thereof) to this forum. To
date, I have never had a problem with promptly completing a sale. (some
for a fair sum of money)
Based on the business ethic demonstrated by the Ebay operators, this is
the only place that I partipate in on-line auctions.
I noted that someone commented that he was displeased with Ebay due to a
poor packing job done on an item he purchased thru the service. I would
only offer the opinion that Ebay simply coordinates sales, and takes no
part in delivery.
Just as with the people offering high amounts for
seemingly minimal items, you can't always assume that someone selling
thinks of any given item as anything special or that they know anything
about packing. A little homework often tells me a lot about the people I
am dealing with...
Similarly, I reciently obtained some equipment from a person (not thru
Ebay) who seemed knowledgable enough about computer gear, and did a fine
job packing a (rather large) printer to be delivered to me. However the
next day a box of spare parts and boards for the same printer (shipped
from the same person, at the same time) arrived in a
cardboard box, with
no packing, crushed by UPS beyond any hope of salvage...
Waddayado???
As for my 'virtual garage (pun intended) sale'... If this has in fact
offended anyone, my apologies... I tried...
FWIW...
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
2:39 p.m.
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9 Apr
9 Apr
11:55 a.m.
[followup below]
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:39:32 -0800 (PDT)
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings)
Tim (and whoever it was that wrote the previous passage - the
reference was lost in the previous post),
I'm the one who mentioned that I had problems with a bad
shippment. While I don't blame Ebay, the origanization, for this
situation, the fact is that I am now leary of ebay transactions
because of it. What difference does it make if Ebay or the seller
is responsible for a rotten packing job? The fact is that through
Ebay I still don't 'know' the seller, and have nothing but my trust
relationship with ebay to determine the integrity of the seller.
Ebay promisses nothing.... Here I have the list family as my test of
authenticity. A much better test IMHO.... I would trust a new list
member as much as I would trust anyone on Ebay, but someone I've
seen post for months or a year has much more credibility in my eyes.
--jmg
I noted that someone commented that he was
displeased with Ebay due to a
poor packing job done on an item he purchased thru the service. I would
only offer the opinion that Ebay simply coordinates sales, and takes no
part in delivery.
Yes, I understand that. I suppose my question was "are the folks who
buy/sell through Ebay a bunch of lusers?". I've bought and sold many times
over Usenet, and I can usually tell what sort of person I'm dealing with
because I often insist on a phone conversation before concluding a
sale. Having an intermediary like Ebay decide on the buyer/seller
makes me a bit uneasy. (And no, I don't always sell to the highest
bidder!).
8 Apr
8 Apr
1:29 p.m.
Tim Shoppa Wrote:
I've never sold, but I have bought. I must admit, even after
_asking the seller very nicely_ to package the goods carefully, he
still just threw the item (an Atari 800) in a big box with newspaper;
It arrived a mess of broken plastic. He currently claims to be
working with UPS to refund my money instead of taking responsibility
of it himself.
I'm less than enthusiastic about ebay because of this. OTOH, I
bought from someone else and he shipped the items wrapped in bubble
wrap, boxed in peanut packing material... they arrived in beautiful
condidtion and I sent off a thank you letter immeiately. I would say
that you're taking a much worse risk buying through the auction houses
because you have no idea what kind of person you're buying from. Here
you may not meet the person, but we're a fairly close knit community.
I feel much safer buying from the folks here.
--jmg
Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead
of on this list, opens
them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices
than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to
have them advertised here than on Ebay.
That might depend on whether you're selling or buying, Kai :-).
More seriously, has anyone here actually conducted a transaction
through Ebay? Did the highest bidder actually make payment in
a timely manner, if you were selling?
4:01 p.m.
J. Maynard Gelinas wrote:
I've never sold, but I have bought. I must
admit, even after
_asking the seller very nicely_ to package the goods carefully, he
still just threw the item (an Atari 800) in a big box with newspaper;
It arrived a mess of broken plastic. He currently claims to be
working with UPS to refund my money instead of taking responsibility
of it himself.
Hope this ISN'T me!! Nope, I've never had an Atari 800
I'm less than enthusiastic about ebay because of
this. OTOH, I
bought from someone else and he shipped the items wrapped in bubble
wrap, boxed in peanut packing material... they arrived in beautiful
condidtion and I sent off a thank you letter immeiately. I would say
that you're taking a much worse risk buying through the auction houses
because you have no idea what kind of person you're buying from. Here
you may not meet the person, but we're a fairly close knit community.
I feel much safer buying from the folks here.
I sure hope this IS me. I think it was anyway.
To others that are reading this I want to say that USPS has never broken or lost an
item I've sent but twice now UPS in various metro areas has dropped them and
irregardless of the packing involved has managed to ruin them and took FOREVER to
settle. You might even read the contract/shipping reciept as many UPS items go
through a handling service that routes items to UPS and charges a hefty fee on top
of that. If you read their fine print you'll see that certain ones do not insure
items such as monitors, computers, etc even though they show a certain amount of
insurance whether the automatic $100 or you pay for additional.
Also be aware that I've sent items to close relatives and they've sent me items,
properly wrapped and able to withstand all sorts of shock but yet some older items
still manage to arrive in a different working order than when they left. The
reciever (in very few cases) may also mess things up and then blame the seller for
selling junk. Anyone in retail sales has seen this many times, whether it's meant
as a con-job or just sheer stupidity of the reciever.
Anyone that sells should be as honest as possible and anyone that buys should also
be wary that these items are used and in an AS-IS state and legally carry no
warranty unless the seller sends the buyer a printed copy of such a warranty. I'm
glad to help people in the collector and hobby sector of computers get items that
would otherwise fill the dumps and that they trust me enough to send prepayment for
shipping and the items (when applicable). I also thank anyone that has sent me
items for being honest and sending me what I expected. It's this 'commradary'
of
all involved in this type of computer hobby that makes things go so smoothly. As
Maynard has noted, Ebay has some sellers with other objectives than helping each
other, just helping themselves - to your money. Don't get me wrong, most sales are
legitimate and good. The few that slam items loosely into boxes and send them just
to complete a transaction are surely the few that make the others look bad. I
personally stay away from Ebay and other auctions due to the fact that many items
are so wanted by people that they get stupid sometimes and offer way over what an
item should cost in any condition because they think they're going to get a
"last
of a dying machine" for their collection.
Well that was my opinion...they say that "opinions are like assholes, everyone has
one and they usually stink" (excuse the profanity but it makes the whole thing work
better - in my opinion)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ # 1714857
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
4:33 p.m.
Russ Blakeman wrote:
To others that are reading this I want to say that
USPS has never broken or lost an
item I've sent but twice now UPS in various metro areas has dropped them and
irregardless of the packing involved has managed to ruin them and took FOREVER to
settle.
Me too! After thousands of shipping transactions, I now discourage
would be shippers from using UPS and going with USPS. I've been doing
that now for several years, and still don't regret it. UPS has
absolutely _destroyed_ way too much of my *sturdy* break-resistant
merchandise for me to ever take seriously again. The reason they are
hard to get reimbursement from is that a claim that a package was
damaged is viewed as a claim of negligence against a union worker... Use
your imagination here...
--
mor(a)crl.com
http://www.crl.com/~mor/
6:24 p.m.
New subject: UPS (off topic) Re: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings)
Since everyone is venting their feelings about UPS, I'll throw in my two
cents worth.
I called UPS today and enquiried about sending a 1/2" thick 8 1/2 x 11"
manual via UPS and was told it had to packed in a double walled container
with 2 to 4 inches of padding between the two containers. That's
ludicrous! UPS is putting the burden to protect the packages on the
shippers instead of their sloppy workers. The last time I was in the UPS
shipping center I saw a worker at the customer service counter turn on the
convyor belt and dump all the packages in the floor because the people in
the back weren't taking them off fast enough. What's more, no one there
seemed surprised or made any attempt to turn the conyor off until ALL of
the packages had fallen off the end and dropped to the floor.
I have other gripes with UPS besides their poor handling. I live in a
major city and there is only one UPS shipping center here and between the
long lines there and the travel time it takes me several hours to ship a
package with them. It's not worth the hassles or the time to ship a $10
item that I MIGHT make a $2 profit on. Now I will only ship with UPS as a
last resort. I have refused to sell several items because the buyer
insisted on shipping with UPS, since it would have cost me more in time and
aggrevation than what I would have made on the deal.
Joe
9:58 p.m.
New subject: UPS (off topic) Re: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings)
Joe wrote:
Since everyone is venting their feelings about UPS,
I'll throw in my two
cents worth.
I called UPS today and enquiried about sending a 1/2" thick 8 1/2 x 11"
manual via UPS and was told it had to packed in a double walled container
with 2 to 4 inches of padding between the two containers. That's
ludicrous! UPS is putting the burden to protect the packages on the
shippers instead of their sloppy workers. The last time I was in the UPS
shipping center I saw a worker at the customer service counter turn on the
convyor belt and dump all the packages in the floor because the people in
the back weren't taking them off fast enough. What's more, no one there
seemed surprised or made any attempt to turn the conyor off until ALL of
the packages had fallen off the end and dropped to the floor.
Like i said, UPS has broken more than they've delivered for me. I just sent a
Rainbow 100+ and a Vector 3 to the Anahiem area and USPS did everything right.
It helps on my part having packing experience from 20 yrs worth of moves while
in the AF.
I have other gripes with UPS besides their poor
handling. I live in a
major city and there is only one UPS shipping center here and between the
long lines there and the travel time it takes me several hours to ship a
package with them. It's not worth the hassles or the time to ship a $10
item that I MIGHT make a $2 profit on. Now I will only ship with UPS as a
last resort. I have refused to sell several items because the buyer
insisted on shipping with UPS, since it would have cost me more in time and
aggrevation than what I would have made on the deal.
In the rural area I live in it's 50 miles to either shipping center. I have to
deal with a router-mailer service that adds a fee. There's 6 post offices
within any direction of my house within 5 miles of it.I do have to say one good
thing for UPS. The driver that does my route helps keep UPS in business.
Besides the fact that I know him from school days, he knows people by name,
knows how they like deliveries made, always goes a little further to get the
item to you and stops me in town if he sees me and knows I have a package. He's
retiring in 5 yrs and I'm probably going to lose interest altogether after
that.
Now that we've all slammed UPS, let's get off on a good note and say that in
the area where I live UPS at least gets the package to you. RPS, FedEx and
others have a habit of calling me and telling me that I have to meet them as
they don't deliver to rural route box addresses. Then I have to tell them to
deliver it or send it back and piss off the shipper who's dumping a ton of
money daily into their company. RPS is that way when I get items from MEI Micro
in Ohio. USPS gets it to me in 4 days, UPS in 2-3 days, FedEx in 5-7 days and
RPS in 2-3 WEEKS, if at all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ # 1714857
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
10:55 p.m.
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote:
To others that are reading this I want to say that
USPS has never broken
or lost an item I've sent but twice now UPS in various metro areas has
dropped them and irregardless of the packing involved has managed to
ruin them and took FOREVER to settle. You might even read the
contract/shipping reciept as many UPS items go through a handling
service that routes items to UPS and charges a hefty fee on top of that.
If you read their fine print you'll see that certain ones do not insure
items such as monitors, computers, etc even though they show a certain
amount of insurance whether the automatic $100 or you pay for
additional.
I don't know this to be correct. If you pay for shipping insurance with
UPS and as long as you declared what was truly in the package, UPS will
pay for the damage. My company has made at least 3 claims on computers
that were virtually destroyed in transit even though they were packaged
well. UPS did eventually pay all three claims. Yes it did take a while,
but they did honor the insurance. If they didn't, it would be called
fraud.
transaction are surely the few that make the others
look bad. I
personally stay away from Ebay and other auctions due to the fact that
many items are so wanted by people that they get stupid sometimes and
offer way over what an item should cost in any condition because they
think they're going to get a "last of a dying machine" for their
collection.
This is exactly why I don't buy through Ebay anymore. And more
importantly, anything I used to buy on Ebay, with the high bid price
pushed up by fools, not to mention the shipping costs, I'd find locally a
week later for a tenth of the cost of what I paid on Ebay.
Well that was my opinion...they say that
"opinions are like assholes,
everyone has one and they usually stink" (excuse the profanity but it
makes the whole thing work better - in my opinion)
Words are pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are
interpreted by the hearer. ;)
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't blame me...I voted for Satan.
Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 04/08/98]
9 Apr
9 Apr
5:13 a.m.
Sam Ismail wrote:
Sam, reread the above statement. The carrier that routes the packages to UPS is the
one that makes this statement on the reciept. UPS is slow but I agree, they do
eventually pay out. They have a habit (like the government) of depreciating the
actual value they'll pay on it though.
And sometimes 1/100th. I saw a C128D on there a week or so ago that got $250 for
just the base unit and keyboard. I GAVE one away that same week, working and like
new.
I appreciate your comment.
You might even
read the
contract/shipping reciept as many UPS items go through a handling
service that routes items to UPS and charges a hefty fee on top of that.
If you read their fine print you'll see that certain ones do not insure
items such as monitors, computers, etc even though they show a certain
amount of insurance whether the automatic $100 or you pay for
additional.
I don't know this to be correct. If you pay for shipping insurance with
UPS and as long as you declared what was truly in the package, UPS will
pay for the damage. My company has made at least 3 claims on computers
that were virtually destroyed in transit even though they were packaged
well. UPS did eventually pay all three claims. Yes it did take a while,
but they did honor the insurance. If they didn't, it would be called
fraud. transaction
are surely the few that make the others look bad. I
personally stay away from Ebay and other auctions due to the fact that
many items are so wanted by people that they get stupid sometimes and
offer way over what an item should cost in any condition because they
think they're going to get a "last of a dying machine" for their
collection.
This is exactly why I don't buy through Ebay anymore. And more
importantly, anything I used to buy on Ebay, with the high bid price
pushed up by fools, not to mention the shipping costs, I'd find locally a
week later for a tenth of the cost of what I paid on Ebay. Well that was
my opinion...they say that "opinions are like assholes,
everyone has one and they usually stink" (excuse the profanity but it
makes the whole thing work better - in my opinion)
Words are pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are
interpreted by the hearer. ;) Don't blame me...I voted for Satan.
Didn't we all? The better of two evils and we got the other - my former
"boss".
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ # 1714857
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
5:59 a.m.
Sam Ismail wrote:
snip
Words are pure. The only thing "profane"
about words is how they are
interpreted by the hearer. ;)
Sam
Ah but SAM, while it's a reasonably correct statement. In the particular
instance being refrenced, because of the word used, there wasn't _any_
grey area for 'interpretation'.
This time, you were a bit 'over the line'.
Chuck
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond,
he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer
and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649)
While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955-
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940
1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad(a)gamewood.net
Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803
7 a.m.
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Charles A. Davis wrote:
Look, this discussion is not about my use of certains venerable words that
have been with us English speaking people longer than most others. If I
choose to express myself in way which you find objectionable then deal
with it. This is the kind of content that definitely should not be posted
publicly as it is entirelf off-topic, and I don't want to hear about it.
Its just all letters of the alphabet. If you don't like the way they're
arranged, hit the delete key.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't blame me...I voted for Satan.
Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 04/08/98]
Words are
pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are
interpreted by the hearer. ;)
Sam
Ah but SAM, while it's a reasonably correct statement. In the particular
instance being refrenced, because of the word used, there wasn't _any_
grey area for 'interpretation'.
This time, you were a bit 'over the line'.
7:36 a.m.
Sam Ismail wrote:
Look, this discussion is not about my use of certains venerable words that
have been with us English speaking people longer than most others. If I
choose to express myself in way which you find objectionable then deal
with it. This is the kind of content that definitely should not be posted
publicly as it is entirelf off-topic, and I don't want to hear about it.
Its just all letters of the alphabet. If you don't like the way they're
arranged, hit the delete key.
Sam
Hi Sam:
You are right, they _are_ just letters.
What was objectionable, was not the use of the 'objectionable' word, to
start with. (That is quite easy to ignore, it's quite often 'verbal
noise' similar to 'uhhh', during a conversation. It is also _usually_
the mark of someone who either doesn't have the vocabulary to be able to
use a less objectionable word, or is too lazy (either physically, OR
mentally) to invest the effort. that using less objectionable wording
would entail.)
It was your attempt to redirect the responsibility to the reader, when
there wasn't any possibility of any other 'reading'.
And, no, you don't have to use 4 other words to explain things. Just
leaving out objectionable word to start with, would NOT have had any
detrimental effect on the stated subject matter of this list.
Chuck
Ps This is going back thru the list, because it's in answer to a posted
item. Otherwise, it would only go to you.
C
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond,
he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer
and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649)
While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955-
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940
1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad(a)gamewood.net
Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803
8:30 a.m.
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Charles A. Davis wrote:
Sam Ismail wrote:
Hi.
Can anybody help me find---or send me information such that I would be
able to make my own---composite video out cable for a TI-99/4A?
This would be the one with a DIN plug at one end and a couple of RCA plugs
a the other.
ok
r.
ps What happened to the McQuary limit?
Its just all letters of the alphabet. If you
don't like the way they're
arranged, hit the delete key.
Sam
Hi Sam:
You are right, they _are_ just letters.
What was objectionable, was not the use of the 'objectionable' word, to 
9:52 a.m.
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Charles A. Davis wrote:
Ya, but what's that old quote....
"Profanity is the one language *all* programmers know."
As Sam would say, "F*ck'n A!"
Words are
pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are
interpreted by the hearer. ;)
Sam
Ah but SAM, while it's a reasonably correct statement. In the particular
instance being refrenced, because of the word used, there wasn't _any_
grey area for 'interpretation'.
This time, you were a bit 'over the line'. 
8:08 a.m.
New subject: Lets hear about COMPUTERS!!!!!
This WAS a computer discussion group,,,WHAT HAPPENED??
My E-mail is full of JUNK mail.
--
Live Long and Prosper
Gil Jasmin
http://www2.fwi.com/~circuitsurgeon/neonking.html
11:35 a.m.
New subject: Lets hear about COMPUTERS!!!!!
Gil Jasmin wrote:
This WAS a computer discussion group,,,WHAT
HAPPENED??
My E-mail is full of JUNK mail.
--
Live Long and Prosper
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now that's junk mail....
(Sorry, I have a problem with followers of television programs.)
Gil is right though and I'm guilty as much as everyone else.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ # 1714857
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
7:33 a.m.
[followup throughout text]
Yes, let me state for the record... I purchased an item from Russ,
and not only did he ship out what we agreed upon, but even threw in
an extra ('cause I guess he didn't want it). I am _completely_
satisfied by my transaction with Russ. Also, folks, I don't know
about you but $30 - $50 bucks is chump change to me. Like a night
out at a bar with friends... If something goes wrong with the
transaction it's a PITA, but _not_ a disaster!
With regard to the UPS Vs. USPS debate, I have to agree that USPS
takes better care of my ground shippments than UPS. Unfortunately
my local letter carrier steals my mail, often drops mail for the
wrong address in my mail box, and regularly just throws all the mail
for my building on the floor in the main entrance (where our
mailboxes are). I've never had such poor service from the postal
service... I do live in a 'slum' community in Cambridge - there are
some dangerous parts of Cambridge, MA, believe it or not. A kid was
shot right across the street from my apartment last summer... I
heard the gunshot and watched the ambulances and crazyness ensue
afterward. Wow, only blocks away from MIT and Harvard yet kids sell
crack on my streetcorner. Welcome to the US.
Anyway, the upshot of this is that while I'd rather use USPS because
they seem to take better care of my packages, unfortunately my local
letter carrier is an idiot. Yes, I've complained. No, no one at
the Cambridge Post Office seems to care. Isn't there a federal law
about this?!?!?
--jmg
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:01:13 -0500
From: Russ Blakeman <rhblake(a)bbtel.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings)
J. Maynard Gelinas wrote:
NO! _YOU_ are the reason I pointed out that buying from members of
the list is _safer_ because we are a 'close knit community'... No,
both purchases through ebay were unrelated to the classiccmp list.
One guy shipped me goods that were carefully packed, the other
didn't... So, I guess the best advice to gleen from this is YMMV
because two transactions don't make for a good sample base.
Still... I warn folks, there are numnuts out there.
I've never sold, but I have bought. I
must admit, even after
_asking the seller very nicely_ to package the goods carefully, he
still just threw the item (an Atari 800) in a big box with newspaper;
It arrived a mess of broken plastic. He currently claims to be
working with UPS to refund my money instead of taking responsibility
of it himself.
Hope this ISN'T me!! Nope, I've never had an Atari 800 I'm less than enthusiastic about ebay
because of this. OTOH, I
bought from someone else and he shipped the items wrapped in bubble
wrap, boxed in peanut packing material... they arrived in beautiful
condidtion and I sent off a thank you letter immeiately. I would say
that you're taking a much worse risk buying through the auction houses
because you have no idea what kind of person you're buying from. Here
you may not meet the person, but we're a fairly close knit community.
I feel much safer buying from the folks here.
I sure hope this IS me. I think it was anyway.
To others that are reading this I want to say that
USPS has never broken or lost an
item I've sent but twice now UPS in various metro areas has dropped them and
irregardless of the packing involved has managed to ruin them and took FOREVER to
settle. You might even read the contract/shipping reciept as many UPS items go
through a handling service that routes items to UPS and charges a hefty fee on top
of that. If you read their fine print you'll see that certain ones do not insure
items such as monitors, computers, etc even though they show a certain amount of
insurance whether the automatic $100 or you pay for additional.
Also be aware that I've sent items to close relatives and they've sent me items,
properly wrapped and able to withstand all sorts of shock but yet some older items
still manage to arrive in a different working order than when they left. The
reciever (in very few cases) may also mess things up and then blame the seller for
selling junk. Anyone in retail sales has seen this many times, whether it's meant
as a con-job or just sheer stupidity of the reciever.
Anyone that sells should be as honest as possible and anyone that buys should also
be wary that these items are used and in an AS-IS state and legally carry no
warranty unless the seller sends the buyer a printed copy of such a warranty. I'm
glad to help people in the collector and hobby sector of computers get items that
would otherwise fill the dumps and that they trust me enough to send prepayment for
shipping and the items (when applicable). I also thank anyone that has sent me
items for being honest and sending me what I expected. It's this 'commradary'
of
all involved in this type of computer hobby that makes things go so smoothly. As
Maynard has noted, Ebay has some sellers with other objectives than helping each
other, just helping themselves - to your money. Don't get me wrong, most sales are
legitimate and good. The few that slam items loosely into boxes and send them just
to complete a transaction are surely the few that make the others look bad. I
personally stay away from Ebay and other auctions due to the fact that many items
are so wanted by people that they get stupid sometimes and offer way over what an
item should cost in any condition because they think they're going to get a
"last
of a dying machine" for their collection.
Well that was my opinion...they say that "opinions are like assholes, everyone has
one and they usually stink" (excuse the profanity but it makes the whole thing work
better - in my opinion)
8 Apr
8 Apr
1:12 p.m.
I'll second this. What is classic-cmp for for if not as a
forum for discussion? Isn't offering up equipment for sale, in the
'classic-cmp' charter, clearly on topic 'discussion'? I get plenty of
spam, but rarely does the spam consist of VAXStation 3100's for
sale... not even 'See naked women sitting _on_ VAXStation 3100's!'
I would argue that it is in our benefit to both post items of
interest to our local community, and track items which come up for
sale on newsgroups and ebay.
My .02 anyway.
--jmg
ps - As for the TRS-80 Model 4 on ebay, if anyone wants it I've got a
bid up there but am losing interest fast... I didn't realize the PS
was dead when I bid... if someone chimes up I'll rescind my offer and
let the other it over.
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:54:58 -0700
From: Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings)
Since Bill is absent, I'll presume to speak for him and the rest of us
founding members. You'll notice that the name of the list, same as its
charter, is "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers", not
"preservation" although that is something we are all concerned with.
Webster's defines "collect" in this sense as "to collect
objects", which
implicitly requires their acquisition! Blatantly commercial advertisements
are not allowed, but collector for-sale ads are explicitly part of this
newsgroup and are welcomed.
Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens
them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices
than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to
have them advertised here than on Ebay.
Kai
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Davie [SMTP:adavie@mad.scientist.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 6:11 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: my objection to recent postings
I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising
for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this
list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or
ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance.
Surely, the newsgroups and eBay, etc., are an appropriate place for
regular
sales?
A mailing list dealing with the preservation of classic computers is not.
Cheers
A
9607
days inactive
9608
days old
23 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
aaron＠wfi-inc.com -
adept＠Mcs.Net -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cad＠gamewood.net -
circuitsurgeon＠fwi.com -
dastar＠wco.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com -
maynard＠jmg.com -
mor＠crl.com -
red＠bears.org -
rhblake＠bbtel.com -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net -
shoppa＠alph02.triumf.ca