Date sent: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:43:15 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Ebay: Altairs For this offer I may add that I had a bad experiance with the seller (Jerry Rakar; jrakar(a)en.com). He played a kind of a you're not in, you're in game _after_ the auction and tried to change the rules. And everything in a _very_ rude stlye. Later on I also found that he listed several items more than onece at the same time, without having them twice. Just a personal experience. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: Only 130,000 more items to go, Marvin! For those of you who know how to use a web browser, rather than waste any more bandwidth on off-topic stuff from ebay, please go here and you can find the stuff without Marvin's help: http://pages.ebay.com/aw/search.html -- Doug

John Amirault wrote: Hi John, The do-post comments I have received to date exceed the don't-post comments. Anyone on this list who doesn't particularly care to see the posts can go on to the next message. Some (many, most?) people on this list don't have the time or desire to go searching. My searchs are usually an offshoot of looking for something else. So far, there only seems to be one person having a major problem with my posts. It might help to remember that censorship so far has not been particularly popular on this list. I really thought and hoped this topic had died a well deserved death.

Doug wrote: Doug, if you are trying to start a flamewar again, please take it to email. I very much enjoy that type of battle, but this is not the place for it.

Doug wrote: I don't believe you. I think there probably are at least a few things that WOULD bring you more pleasure.

Marvin wrote: Doug wrote: John wrote: I'm reluctant to get into this argument, but I don't think there's anything wrong with Marvin posting the occasional tips about eBay (for on-topic items, of course). Some of us are interested but don't have time to spend hours searching. I'd hate to find out that I'd missed the chance to bid on an iAPX 432, just because I didn't think to search for it. Of course, I don't know whether Marvin would post a message about a 432.

In private email, Marvin appeared to like the idea of an auction mailing list, so I've created one. You can subscribe by sending a message to: majordomo(a)nut.net with the body: subscribe ccauction I, for one, will not be on this new list, but I'll respond to admin requests. To clarify, this list is just for the discussion of *online auctions* related to classic computers. Hopefully, my reasoning for creating this list is obvious by now -- I find random advertising of auctions unfair to those who invest time in searching out bargain needles in a 1.3M-needle haystack. Obviously, other sales vehicles don't have this inherent problem. Even "real" auctions require a big enough investment of each bidder's time that the playing field is pretty level. So, feel free to continue sharing your non-online-auction finds with me^H^H^H us here :-) On a related note, I want to make it clear that I do find the price trend disturbing. Call me Chicken Little, but I fear The End is Near! It appears to be increasingly difficult to find "interesting" vintage machines from the usual inexpensive sources. I only saw a few S100 machines at ham fests last year, and I suspect that number will decrease by half this year. Would there be any interest in an anonymous database that tracks prices collectors paid over time, and the sources where they found the machines? If so, I can setup a website in about a day. -- Doug

Already on. In fact, I always loved (most of) your postings, but I can also live with the list (already some rules added to keep track and fill a seperate folder). Ok, maybe it is cheap and weak to bow before screaming voices, but I'm also a bit tired about it. His fault, he offered the list, and he will get burried by the result .) I would also love to see this list added to the classiccmp 'FAQ'. They are dying - I noticed the same over here - real old or uncommon machines are already nonexistent on swap meets. It comes more to an point like in the car collections - no more garage/barn finds anymore. but needs a reasonable controll, so a trustworthy maintainer is needed to check new entries for beeing reasonable (not on a 100% base, but at least if it looks unusual). Jep. Maybe every entry should be guarded by a source field, to enter the source of the information (price) like ePay, haggle, swap, personal, regular auchtion, etc. So possibly several price levels can be calculatet, to reflect the different trade areas. If this database is made as an effort of all of us, I would sugest to put the date on a kind of GPL licence type - all or none. I would suggest both. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

At 06:14 AM 1/26/99 -0500, Doug wrote: I can only relate what I've seen in the world o' calculators over the last year & a half, but I believe that such a database would accelerate the price escalation. Unfortunately much damage has already been done in the calculator world, it would be a shame to see the same thing happen to classic computers. Why do I say this? A couple of reasons. First, a well-known calculator web site has a list of values observed for "internet sales" of various calculator models. Many of the numbers are these calculators for sale, and invariably there are eBay listings that point to the web site and says "the museum of XYZ calculators says this machine is worth $100". So it gets bid up to $110, and the next time a model comes up somebody else says "well it was worth $110 so I'll bid $120" and so on and so on. So it appears to me that having the data available in such a public forum causes inflation. Secondly, since the site is easy to find with simple Web searches, non-collectors who have stuff they are going to throw out can do a simple search and come across this "price guide". Then they want $1000 for the HP9100 that they pulled out of a scrap heap, because the museum says it's worth that much (and the only reason the museum says that is because somebody with deep pockets wanted one real bad at one time). Call me a cheapskate (because I am) but I think it's a different matter spending big $$$ to pull a machine you want out of somebody else's collection, vs. spending that for a machine that was headed to the junkheap anyway. I would like to think that someday I'll find somebody here in central NC who's throwing out their Altair and I can get it for $100. Won't happen if the eBay price history is easily obtained on the Web. When I started my calculator web site I thought about posting prices for non-HP machines (as I have kept a pretty complete history of eBay selling prices over the last year), but after going through the thought process decided against it. For me the key aspect of "collecting" is saving as many old machines as I can from the scrapyard, not worrying about how much any particular thing is worth. FWIW, Alex Calculator History & Technology Archive Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm

Auction list.. Okay, but, I've got to say: Auction prices.. IMNSHO, I'm deeply saddened to see prices likely driven by people who probably have no real interest in the machines themselves, and what you could do (or can still do) with them, "See the antique computer I've got on my coffee table". My feeling is, these auctions may "save" some "classics" for cosmetic or "bragging rights" purposes, but will (do) hinder the serious collectors (members of the classiccmp list) who actually put this equipment to good use, and keep alive the history of computing. Sorry, but I had to vent my USD $0.02 worth... Will Doug wrote:

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Hans B Pufal wrote: Monte for Fearless Leader! I figure I only lost a few million not working for BillG, but Monte has balls of steel compared to me! We could probably make up a few $100K to him by making him poster boy for the Anti-Bill crowd. Was he charismatic at all? Not that it matters for all of the T-shirts I could sell.... -- Doug

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Hans B Pufal wrote: Oh well. At least he still has his soul. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99]