18 Aug
2004
18 Aug
'04
6:16 a.m.
I've come across this adapter in my junk box...
http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/adapter.jpg (37Kb)
It's a 5 pin DIN socket, to an RJ11 + lead with a single large pin with a
slot in it.
I /think/ it was for a Wyse AT computer to allow the use of a standard PC
AT Keyboard, but don't quote me on that.
There is a part number on the moulding of the DIN - 940398-02 REV. A - but
googling shows nothing.
If anybody wants it, it's theirs for free; just cover the postage.
Talking of Wyse ... I have two Wyse 120 terminals, a Wyse 30+, and another
serial terminal I can't remember the brand of - (not a major one, and has
reseller's name on the front) - all free to anybody who wants to come
collect from Salford, UK.
Rob
18 Aug
18 Aug
6:53 a.m.
Rob O'Donnell wrote:
I've come across this adapter in my junk box...
http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/adapter.jpg (37Kb)
Wow, I've got one of those too. If someone offers you a wheelbarrow full
of cash for it, let me know.
It's a 5 pin DIN socket, to an RJ11 + lead with a single large pin
with a slot in it.
I /think/ it was for a Wyse AT computer to allow the use of a standard
PC AT Keyboard, but don't quote me on that.
I believe that's correct, but not 100% sure. It would have been used pre
80386.
There is a part number on the moulding of the DIN - 940398-02 REV. A -
but googling shows nothing.
Sure it's not 940393-01 REV A? Maybe mine's rarer than yours?
If anybody wants it, it's theirs for free; just cover the postage.
7:21 a.m.
New subject: Origin of row/column based database software
I'm curious as to the origin of database software that allows display/edit
of the data in a row/column format.
All early PC based database software that I had exposure to layed out each
record one at a time on the screen, as a "form". You could only view/edit
one record at a time. Such programs for the Apple were pfs:FILE, CCA-DMS,
and VisiFile.
In the summer of 1981 I wrote a replacement for the "maintenance" module of
VisiFile that looked like a spreadsheet, and displayed all the data records
as rows, and fields in columns. I had never seen any other software do this
with a database, although to me it seemed like a natural thing to do, given
the popularity of spreadsheets.
Now, just about all database software displays data in the row/column
metaphor. But was my program the first? I have to admit that my exposure to
other database systems was pretty limited in that period - for example, I
have never used any mainframe database systems at all.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of DATABASE software that
uses the row/column metaphor before the summer of 1981?
It would be neat to think that my idea spurred what is now commonplace in
databases, although I have to admit that it's a pretty easy mental jump from
a spreadsheet to a row/column display of database idea, so it's more likely
that others came to the same conclusion, and didn't copy my software!
- Bob
8 a.m.
New subject: Origin of row/column based database software
Bob,
I used Ingres and Britton-Lee in the late 70's. They were certainly not the
first. COBOL supports row/column data natively (records and fields), so the
concept is at least as old as its presence in the language (1960's?).
Accountants have used tabular forms for their data for centuries
(millenia?), so I'd imagine that as it relates to computers and databases,
this is probably one of the earliest forms of data storage.
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Lafleur
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 9:21 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: Origin of row/column based database software
I'm curious as to the origin of database software that allows
display/edit of the data in a row/column format.
All early PC based database software that I had exposure to
layed out each record one at a time on the screen, as a
"form". You could only view/edit one record at a time. Such
programs for the Apple were pfs:FILE, CCA-DMS, and VisiFile.
In the summer of 1981 I wrote a replacement for the
"maintenance" module of VisiFile that looked like a
spreadsheet, and displayed all the data records as rows, and
fields in columns. I had never seen any other software do
this with a database, although to me it seemed like a natural
thing to do, given the popularity of spreadsheets.
Now, just about all database software displays data in the
row/column metaphor. But was my program the first? I have to
admit that my exposure to other database systems was pretty
limited in that period - for example, I have never used any
mainframe database systems at all.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of DATABASE
software that uses the row/column metaphor before the summer of 1981?
It would be neat to think that my idea spurred what is now
commonplace in databases, although I have to admit that it's
a pretty easy mental jump from a spreadsheet to a row/column
display of database idea, so it's more likely that others
came to the same conclusion, and didn't copy my software!
- Bob
8:27 a.m.
New subject: Origin of row/column based database software
Am 18 Aug 2004 12:21 meinte Bob Lafleur:
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of
DATABASE software that
uses the row/column metaphor before the summer of 1981?
It would be neat to think that my idea spurred what is
now commonplace in
databases, although I have to admit that it's a pretty easy mental jump from
a spreadsheet to a row/column display of database idea, so it's more likely
that others came to the same conclusion, and didn't copy my software!
Well, I don't want to destroy your impression, but organizeing
data(bases) as rows and columns is as old as the punch card.
Working since some years on mainframes (which are still way
influenced by the 80 column layout of punch cards) I almost
can't imagine to look at any data that way. I remember a set
of programms we did (or better let a generator/compiler do)
four our system to view/handle records (It was the time when
we finaly got several terminals *G*). The top of screen was
reserved for navigation, while each line was dedicated to a
record - or in some cases, multiple lines (which reduced the
number of records (rows) displayed. You could move arround
and change as many fields of as many records as you wanted.
By hitting the transmit key, all changes where send back to
the host and then incooperated into the database.
IIRC, one of the system editors even had a feature where it
could handle a ISAM based file as records with defined fields
and display them (with according protected/non protected screen
sections) for editing - in contrast to our own programms, one
screen line was always one record, and you had to 'scroll'
right/left to access fields outside the displayed area.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
11:25 a.m.
New subject: 80 columns (was: Origin of row/column based database software
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Hans Franke wrote:
Working since some years on mainframes (which are
still way
influenced by the 80 column layout of punch cards) I almost
"The design of MS-DOS clearly shows that Microsoft considers
screens to be a passing fad, and assumes that everybody will
soon return to punchcards and paper tape." - Bob Wallace
20 Aug
20 Aug
12:41 p.m.
New subject: Origin of row/column based database software
On Wed, 2004-08-18 at 10:27, Hans Franke wrote:
Well, I don't want to destroy your impression, but
organizeing
data(bases) as rows and columns is as old as the punch card.
I can't even believe this is a real thread; punched paper cards is the
paradigm, and 18th century jacquard loom (what, 1730?), hey, fabric is
'row' and 'column' aka warp & weft is the precise mapping of jacquard
cards to reality.
Los Alamos research into ahem "metal driven explosive systems", was done
with electromechanical card storage and calculation, and explicitly, in
the modern sense, compiled runs and explosion simulation data
(millisecond by millisecond) as physical trays of data. Clearly and
intentionally a database in the modern sense, and they rushed like hell
into the tape/disk era ASAP. ANd that's 1940's.
VisiCalc is of course famous, but all those IBM RJE type terminals have
a direct mapping between screen columns/rows and punched card format.
As a general rule: nearly nothing was first done on beige boxes. Nearly
every computer paradigm is pushing 40, 50 years old minimum. Look at the
old BELFLIX graphics, CPC II "transciever" phone-line-data transmission,
lookahead-carry, blah blah it was done in wood, bone, brass, and vacuum.
18 Aug
18 Aug
11:21 a.m.
New subject: Origin of row/column based database software
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Bob Lafleur wrote:
I'm curious as to the origin of database software
that allows display/edit
of the data in a row/column format.
a name for it from forty years ago was "flat-file database". It was quite
common for simple data in the EAM ("electronic accounting machine"
(punchcard)) days. But it didn't have the "interactive" screen nature
that you want.
I remember in 1967, Wilson Price telling Ben Micallef that someday
all end user would have machines on their desks to do it on TV screens.
Micallef said, "May we live so long" (idiomatic for "no way") He did
NOT
live to see it.
When VisiCalc came out, although it was "intended" for arithmetic
use, LOTS of people used it for keeping track of simple record/field
data.
And, of course, all of the VisiClones, such as Lotus and Excel ended
up being used for it. I have Excel business database files that used to
be Lotus files that used to be Visicalc files. And somewhere,...
I should still have some that used to be punchcards (manually reentered
into Visicalc).
All early PC based database software that I had
exposure to layed out each
record one at a time on the screen, as a "form". You could only view/edit
one record at a time. Such programs for the Apple were pfs:FILE, CCA-DMS,
and VisiFile.
It was traditional in Data Processing to have "data entry" completely
separate from interactive use of the data. And data entry is STILL
usually done by showing a single record at a time on the screen.
In the summer of 1981 I wrote a replacement for the
"maintenance" module of
VisiFile that looked like a spreadsheet, and displayed all the data records
as rows, and fields in columns. I had never seen any other software do this
with a database, although to me it seemed like a natural thing to do, given
the popularity of spreadsheets.
Yes, it WAS an obvious thing to do.
Now, just about all database software displays data in
the row/column
metaphor. But was my program the first? I have to admit that my exposure to
other database systems was pretty limited in that period - for example, I
have never used any mainframe database systems at all.
No, your prograam was NOT the first. In the 1960s, with punchcards for
data storage, and using a 407 to print it out as rows and columns, I
maintained a few minor databases, such as name and address files.
I don't consider the 407 to be a computer. I consider it a
board programmable free-standing peripheral. (EAM machine!)
If we call the 407 a computer, then we'd also have to call
the duplicator and the interpreter computers.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of
DATABASE software that
uses the row/column metaphor before the summer of 1981?
Hollerith 1890 ?
It would be neat to think that my idea spurred what is
now commonplace in
databases, although I have to admit that it's a pretty easy mental jump from
a spreadsheet to a row/column display of database idea, so it's more likely
that others came to the same conclusion, and didn't copy my software!
Get a patent, and hold the entire world hostage!
4:27 p.m.
New subject: Origin of row/column based database software
displays data in the row/column metaphor
For your database of database metaphors.
The 'tab' key on typewriters probably goes back to the turn of the
20th century. It stands for "Tabular" or "make Table" and arranges
data in columns. One of the earliest milestones.
John A.
7267
days inactive
7273
days old
9 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
allain＠panix.com -
bob_lafleur＠technologist.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
classiccmp.org＠irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk -
Hans.Franke＠siemens.com -
kth＠srv.net -
patrick＠vintagecomputermarketplace.com -
tomj＠wps.com