At 01:14 PM 12/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: Read it more carefully. Also no, it wasn't. Maybe 1/10 the manuals were 'saved', but that means stacked in moving boxes in storage. Definitely not accessible, not for sale, indexing almost certainly lost. Also, it's about time to check what ultimately happened to them. And don't give me that 'they will get scanned' line. No they won't, and anyway I don't consider digital copies to be valid historical preservation for posterity. No matter what the scan quality (which is almost invariably inadequate anyway.) What's the bet 'never'? Also, by 'see' I'd prefer 'see, holding an original in my hands.' With the demise of manuals wharehouse/sellers like ManualsPlus that's become MUCH more unlikely. Incidentally, if anyone happens to be near Finksberg, MD, it would be great to get an update on what happened with the building. Is it now some other business? Or demolished/redeveloped? Or just sitting there abandoned? (I'm an urbex enthusiast, I always like to follow the history of old buildings, especially if they become abandonments.) Relevant to claims that the ManualsPlus lease was $10K/month. Really curious to know if that was true. Photos please? Apologies for the following wall-o-text dump. Just for the record. ------------------------------------------------------- On the loss of ManualsPlus. Closed Aug 2015. Manuals Plus. 2002 Bethel Rd, Suite 105 Finksberg, MD. Phone 410-871-1555. Fax 410-871-1255 em: sales at manualsplus.com web: www.manualsplus.com Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/2002+Bethel+Rd+%23105,+Finksburg,+MD+2104… This: F:\__Equip_info\!_GKD_Lists\ManualsPlus_demise See also: Z \__Libraries_destroyed\20150816_ManualsPlus (the saved flickr pics are there.) ---------------- 20141221 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/manualsplus-going-out-of-business/ 20150815 http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 Original 'ASCII by Jason Scott' (low bandwidth cap) Same, at archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20150815114528/http://ascii.textfiles.com/archi… (with pics) Manuals Plus Loadout - A visit to the Manuals Plus Warehouse, and an Army of Volunteers Clearing it Out. 155 photos. By: Jason Scott (2 pages. Painful saving pics) https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/sets/72157657277241785 See pics on 2nd page - how much was left behind. Tragic. 20150816 An update from Jason. (From Aug 2015 onwards he has many updates.) http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4695 20150816 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-needed-to-archive-te-manuals/ (stub) 20150816 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/?… 20150818 https://twitter.com/textfiles/with_replies In Realtime: We are barely halfway done http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4711 20181213 via cctalk ManualsPlus was "acquired" by the Internet Archive. This story captures the effort: 20150901 https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/introducing-the-arch… (The few pics are from the flickr page above. Also the article is typical MSM spin.) My posts in eevblog - rescue-mission-25-000-manuals --------------------------------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/m… TerraHertz Posts: 3403 Country: au Why shouldn't we question everything? Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #2 on: August 16, 2015, 11:16:05 am ? Dammit. This would be Manuals Plus. 2002 Bethel Rd, Suite 105 Finksberg, MD. Phone 410-871-1555. Fax 410-871-1255 em: sales at manualsplus.com web: www.manualsplus.com Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/2002+Bethel+Rd+%23105,+Finksburg,+MD+2104… They sent a flyer to customers (including me) last year announcing their impending going out of business. But then they were still listing on ebay long after the end date, so I'd assumed they'd changed their mind. Now suddenly it's "manuals being dumped in the trash" It's a tragedy, and should be criminal that they are dumpstering their manuals. Apparently with no attempt to advertise a giveaway. That counts as deliberate, premeditated destruction of cultural and technological treasures. Along the lines of destruction of libraries. (Btw, google that. It's happening a lot lately in a deliberate program by a certain group.) Hopefully it's not Becky doing the dumping. She is a very nice lady, and appreciates the worth of the manuals. I can't believe she'd do it, even if her boss told her to. That there was no flyer about the actual closure suggests Becky is no longer employed there. I don't know who the business owner is, but I'd certainly like some time 'alone with him.' I'm in Australia, or I'd be there with a semi and filling up shipping containers. WHHHY can't they donate them to an organization able to store them and give them away? I really do think that destroying these old and in some cases unique and irreplaceable manuals should be a crime. People should go there and recover the already dumpstered manuals. And shout abuse at the people doing the dumping. Maybe something involving iron bars and two by fours wouldn't be amiss either. The guy that decided to shut the business down without organizing for the manuals to be saved, deserves a very unpleasant fate. No, the crappy quality scans available online of *some* of these manuals do not count as 'preservation for posterity.' The idea that there are already adequate electronic copies of all these physical manuals is delusional. A similar thing happened in Australia with a manuals company called High Country Service Data, about 20 years ago. They had a warehouse of service manuals, including many from early Australian electronics companies like BWD. Recently I discovered they had 'gone digital' - had all their manuals scanned (with the very crap scanning technology of the time) then destroyed their entire physical archive. I literally wept. No, I don't want to buy your pathetic digital low quality copies, thanks very much. A*hole. Notice on google maps that the building is situated in a semi-rural area. Also ManualsPlus is just one unit of that old factory complex. How much can the storage costs be? Combined with the absence of any giveaway attempt makes me suspect the decision to destroy the manuals may be motivated more by an actual desire to destroy them, than by commercial reasons. So far as I know Becky was the only employee, and she always seemed to be worked off her feet with manuals sales. I can't type words expressing my feelings about this, since this is an all-ages forum. But a lot of them begin with F and C. Edit to add: Darnit. I wanted to save the article pics from http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 as a record of this cultural crime. But now the site is "Bandwidth limit exceeded". Sigh. It will probably stay that way a while. So I have to go grubbing in caches. -------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/m… Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #5 on: August 16, 2015, 11:47:41 am ? Quote from: nctnico on August 16, 2015, 11:22:15 am @TerraHertz: Did it occur to you that they are going out of business because nobody wants the manuals? Your argument is invalid, and merely demonstrates that *you* don't want them. How many people buy ebay'd old gear? Did you actually look at ManualsPlus prices? Quote I'm sure there will be couple of manuals in the collection which are sought after by people trying to maintain old gear but they really don't want to spend $75 for a manual for a piece of equipment they got for $10. You are strawman arguing, and should know better. Not 'a couple', but many thousands of manuals. $75 is way too high, and $10 is 1 to 3 orders of magnitude too low for typical worthwhile bits of old gear. Also, speak to any historian about whether current commercial value is a true measure of historic value. Quote The golden days for service manuals are over because service manuals don't exist anymore. Ha ha, fine example of circular logic there. But the last phrase is precisely correct. Service manuals don't exist anymore. Are you saying that is a good thing? One of the ways in which these manuals are precious, is as a physical demonstration of what good technical documentation should be. To hold up against and shame present day outrageous lack of anything similar. And such examples are not useful if there's just ONE copy in some library somewhere. They need to be held in many copies across a population to have any effect. Every kid learning electronics should personally experience manuals like these, to make them question why present day manufacturers don't produce such things. To show them the benefits of having tech companies run by honest engineers working for the good of society, rather than by a bunch of soulless marketing droids and lawyers. ---------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/m… Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #10 on: August 16, 2015, 12:23:33 pm ? Quote from: tautech on August 16, 2015, 12:11:24 pm Quote from: Deathwish on August 16, 2015, 12:07:23 pm I refuse to pay for manuals, why should I scan mine and give them free as I have always done for some ingrate to then sell it on ebay. That's what the FREE manual respository websites are for, upload your obscure manual to make it available to the masses for free. Pretty sure he was just trolling. FWIW, here's the flyer from ManualsPlus in Dec 2014. I bought a few manuals as a result, but was/am too poor to go on a real splurge. Even given cheap shipping via shipito, and that ManualsPlus prices were always reasonable and Becky was being extra generous during the sale. Also I'm pretty sure I mentioned their impending closure here, but didn't save a link to the thread. Where are all the rich philanthropists, who could easily afford to organize a warehouse and one or two staff for this? Considering some of the stupid things people donate millions to, inability to get this done seems really sad. Btw, did anyone save the pics from the original article? ------------------------ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/m… Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #13 on: August 16, 2015, 12:55:03 pm ? Quote from: Deathwish on August 16, 2015, 12:27:56 pm I was not trolling anyone thank you. I have always scanned what manuals I have and given them freely, I have even seen one or two then being sold against my wishes on ebay, it rankles and annoys me that people who will offer help to save a collection will then suddenly decide hey why shouldn't you pay for what I got free in the understanding i got them for nothing to save them for others to have freely. Sorry then. Sometimes with your sense of humor it's hard to tell. (But I do enjoy your shenanigans.) The original article at http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/4683 is now 'bandwidth exceeded'. But it was saved today and available at archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20150815114528/http://ascii.textfiles.com/archi… (with pics) There's also "full photos from today?s shoot" here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/sets/72157657277241785 Incidentally, that info about 'lease expired, can't justify cost of relocating' is a teeny bit suspect. That's not what I recall Becky saying in email to me early this year. I'll see if I can find that. --------------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/m… Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #16 on: August 16, 2015, 01:29:03 pm ? Quote from: eas on August 16, 2015, 01:01:47 pm Sounds like the Jason Scott already has some connection with Archive.org. The short term issue is sorting, hauling everything off and storing it until they can come up with a plan for archiving it. What sorting? It's already neatly sorted and indexed. The hard part would be preserving that during a move. Anyone in the US able to think of a way someone could put a legal hold on the destruction? Quote As for burning libraries, I think someone else started doing that about, oh 2000 years ago? Oh yes, there's a long tradition of barbarism regarding libraries, much further back even than 2000 years. It's just lately there seems to be a new style. No flames and swords, same end result. I can't mention by whom and why here. But you can probably find out what I mean via google. Incidentally it's a practice I've seen with my own eyes, being done by the specific group (who we can't mention.) The whole "who needs physical books, digital copies are all we need" bullshit meme seems to go hand in hand with the stealth barbarism. But there's a very sound reason why paper copies are superior in a critical way, that overrides all other considerations - You can't expunge/corrupt/rewrite them. Either by accident ( see http://everist.org/NobLog/20131122_an_actual_knob.htm#jbig2 re JBIG2 faulty compression ), or deliberately - say hypothetically some group were intent on obliterating the technological heritage of Western Civilization. Quote I really hope they are checking printings/dates/revisions when eliminating "duplicates." I would bet money that isn't happening. (Ha ha, if I had any. But then, I'm certain I'd win the bet, so...) ------------------------ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/m… Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #24 on: August 17, 2015, 12:18:50 am ? Quote from: nctnico on August 16, 2015, 05:51:30 pm Yes. I think I bought a couple of manuals from them in the past. You can argue all you want but running a business requires paying customers. Paying customers requires offering a service which customers would pay money for. Going out of business means there are not enough paying customers which in turn means the service provided is no longer wanted. You keep assuming they are 'going out of business due to lack of sales'. That's not the case at all. The article states it's due to loss of the lease, and not being able to justify the cost of relocating. I know from conversations with Becky (the sole staff) that she was always working non-stop. And I'm not sure about that lease stuff. So far I can't find the emails, but I'm pretty sure she said it was just the owner deciding to shut down. A decision made in Dec 2014 or earlier. Then the failure to advertise over the last 8 months to see if they could get any takers for the entire collection, so now they would dumptser them, that's barely believable. Quote I also agree with the other person about not being able to browse through their collection. That made Manualsplus invisible to Google. If they addressed that earlier they could probably have survived an extra couple of years. Yes, I agree the website was bad. More incompetence from the owner. But again, it wasn't 'lack of business' according to them. It was loss of the lease. Quote from: timb on August 16, 2015, 10:42:15 pm I'm only a couple of hours from Maryland. I've got access to a 42' flatbed and copious amounts of climate controlled storage. I'd be glad to take all the manuals off their hands (and scan them as a long term project). Well, here are their contact details again. Manuals Plus. 2002 Bethel Rd, Suite 105 Finksberg, MD. Phone 410-871-1555. Fax 410-871-1255 em: sales at manualsplus.com web: www.manualsplus.com Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/2002+Bethel+Rd+%23105,+Finksburg,+MD+2104… Please phone them. Now. Also contact Jason Scott and work out some cooperation with him. Main thing would be to stop them dumping manuals off the shelves till you have time to work out how to move them while maintaining sort order. Also they will have an index and ordering system on computer - you'll need that too. See if you can find out who the building owner is, and talk to them. Are they _really_ terminating the lease? Maybe that story is true, maybe it isn't. Would be good to know for sure. As opposed to, say Tektronix or Agilent/Siglint or whatever they call themselves now, passing someone a few thousand bucks to eliminate a library of manuals, thinking they might sell a few more new instruments if manuals for older gear are unavailable. Just a thought. ----------------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/m… Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #27 on: August 17, 2015, 12:15:55 pm ? Quote from: woodchips on August 17, 2015, 04:21:30 am I know nothing about the ins and outs of why they are closing. I have been an occasional customer over the years but postage to the UK isn't cheap. I heard about the closure and hopefully in the next week or so will arrive boxes 5 and 6 of the sale manuals. I think I might now have spent more on postage than manuals with the discount on these last boxes. Thanks Becky. I've been a long term customer too. Also bought what I could afford after hearing of the shutdown. But it wasn't anything like what I wanted to buy. I'm poor atm, though that won't last forever. Quote Look at the various threads, buy a Rigol and stuff anything more than 5 years old? My manuals were mostly boring, Tek 7000 stuff and similar, but ManualsPlus had originals, and I an tired of rubbish copies and it was worth the cost to buy and ship them across the pond. My view is that at least some people should keep test gear that is repairable, as opposed to contemporary gear which isn't. As a 'just in case' precaution, for potential economic and therefore technological regression scenarios. Also as a collector of old gear partly for the historical interest, it seems stupid to have the gear, but not the original manual, which is part of the aesthetic. And in addition, I find electronic copies pathetic and nearly unusable in a practical sense, even if the quality is good. Which it so frequently isn't. Nothing beats having the stack of paper large foldout schematics. Quote This is a very common occurance now in my experience, no one is interested in older things, generally, it is all apparently on the internet. Yes, and do you know the history of fads and manias? Who can be sure the Internet is going to last forever in its current form? It's only been around what, 20 years so far. This is not sufficient basis to predict eternal availability. Are you aware of moves by the fascists in the US government, to legislate 'sharing of technical information on the net' into a 'terrorist crime'? Seriously... Unbelievable, but it fits with those arseholes' mentalities. Quote I had a nice collection of electromechanical computers, mostly navigation equipment from aircraft, inertial gyros, air data computers, ground position indicators and similar. When I had to downsize it went for auction, would have got more at a scrap yard. Tragic. Did you offer it via places like this and the vintage computing forums? Or was that before you knew of them? Quote Similarly old books, 3rd edition Britannica, a Pantologia, runs of the AJS and similar, these are now valued just for the plates they contain, maps are best, the plate of yet another bridge is used to light the fire. It has taken me years to to actually accept that the things I spent so much time and money on acquiring are now worthless. You're making a big mistake. The same made by many people, which results in relics being so very rare after a few decades. You're allowing yourself to be conditioned by the prevailing view that monetary value of the moment, is equivalent to moral worth. This is a falsehood. You should decide what value is, within your own moral code. F*ck opinions of others to the contrary. Quote I have ST412 working disc drives, no interest, scrapped, similarly with much other computer stuff. No one now has the space to store this stuff, and museums don't seem interested either. Sob. More tragedy. I'd have taken all that stuff. Incidentally, this 'no one has the space' is not just by accident, it's the result of deliberate social manipulation, intended to disempower the majority of the population. A deliberate side effect of the way the economic system is structured at the moment. Quote I am pleased that I bought the manuals I did from MP, and they will be used and appreciated. But they will also go for recycling when I die. How soon will that be do you think? Any chance you could put me down in your will, to take whatever techno-relics you still have? I'm totally serious, please PM me if you'll consider it. I'm 60 now, will be around a while yet. See http://everist.org/NobLog/ I have a lot of Tek 7000 series stuff, but mostly not yet recommissioned due to the sequencing of getting my workshop set up. Quote what is a 7T11? In the end I had a choice, pay MP for the manuals and postage, or keep that money in my savings account. All the others who complain about the manuals being dumped perhaps should have put some money where their mouth is, and bought a couple of thousand $ worth when they could. I did. So did I, but it wasn't anywhere near that much. The timing is what bugs me. In the next year or so, I'll likely be forced to sell my current large property due to a zoning change. (http://everist.org/no-rezone/ hmmm... needs an update.) I expect to end up with more than enough to rebuild in the country somewhere, including a *much bigger* workshop, and live comfortably. One of the items on my 'new workspace' requirements list, is a _large_ library space. Medium scale library. I wish MP had waited to shut down till that was set up. --------------------------------- http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rescue-mission-25-000-manuals-baltimore/m… Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore ? Reply #36 on: August 18, 2015, 05:37:05 pm ? Quote from: Tothwolf on August 18, 2015, 11:14:25 am Quote from: TerraHertz on August 16, 2015, 01:29:03 pm Quote I really hope they are checking printings/dates/revisions when eliminating "duplicates." I would bet money that isn't happening. (Ha ha, if I had any. But then, I'm certain I'd win the bet, so...) You guys need to watch what you say. Becky is aware of this thread and had been following it. As for duplicate sorting, according to Becky, Jason and others have been hard at work. Hi Becky! (Guy D from Sydney here.) I still bet 'duplicate culling' (not sorting, they are ALREADY sorted) isn't happening in any adequate sense. Revision and serial number comparison is *hard* and there's no way it could be done for that archive in the time available. Especially not while also maintaining overall sort order and catalog to shelf grid references. Also even if it was, it's still a tragedy, since the purpose of the the 'save & move' would ideally be to keep the manuals in this collection available for future purchasers. Which I don't expect will be possible, and that makes me feel ill. Both on principle and because it makes my future equipment life harder. It's like watching a priceless library burn, and nothing I can do about it. Feel like I want to kill someone. Not Becky or the volunteers! Three cheers for their effort. The owner, maybe, depending on what the actual situation is. How come this got left to the last minute? Or perhaps the building owner. Or maybe a bunch of bankers, for creating a debt-riddled system in which a business like ManualsPlus can't own its own premises clear of debt, and have no overheads beyond water, power and maybe land rates. There seems to be a lot of 'save only one copy of each for scanning' attitude going on here. You can guess what I think of that. Current scanning and encoding file formats are NOT ADEQUATE! There'll be better schemes in future, but till then save all the physical copies, in as many hands as possible to prevent this kind of mass loss. But, since I can't help or influence in any way, who cares what I think. Quote towards their USD $10,000 a month building lease. I still wish it was possible to do some checking of background details to this. Is "$10K/month" for that not particularly big space in an old subdivided factory in semi-rural area sensible? I don't know, but it does seem a bit hard to believe. Did the lease actually 'get lost'? How & why, given there's not exactly a huge swell in demand for industrial real estate in the USA these days. Who owns the building, and what's their story? I know I'll never see answers to these questions, which makes me feel even more ill about the whole thing, ------------------------------- 20150902 http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/whats-your-work-benchlab-look-like-post-s… My comments re destruction of ManualsPlus Re: Whats your Work-Bench/lab look like? Post some pictures of your Lab. Quote from: Rupunzell on September 02, 2015, 03:54:47 pm That file cabinet of service manuals and the other over stuffed book shelf of data books are going no where. These are valuable archives of not only devices from years gone by, they are part of the history of science and technology. There are data books going back to the early 1970's and to the time when semi companies mostly stopped publishing them. Each year at work, there would be a boxes of new data books that would appear. Some would stay at work, some followed me home. Service manuals would appear at the swap and lease where, they would not sell for much at all and often service manuals would appear by the box full and the seller insisted on the buyer taking the entire box, not just one. There are a number of independent cal labs in and near SV that have very extensive libraries of service manuals. They offer paper copies upon request with a modest fee. Photocopies, you mean. Which may be 'usable', but are worthless in the historical sense. Nothing beats having an original. Quote Many of the more popular instruments from that era can be found on the web, but not any where near all that was available from that time. Much the same applies to semiconductor and numerous other electronics devices. This is why I have kept these vintage data books and catalogs as more often than not, this information can be so very valuable. Tell me about it. From my own experiences of acquiring old gear then trying to find adequate manuals, I know very well how spotty the online archives are. (And much of what there is, are appallingly bad quality.) Also electronics data books - this is one area in which the 'it's all online, so just dumpster your physical books' delusion is particularly active. Maybe half my library of data books are from people I knew who decided to toss theirs. I'll NEVER dump mine. They're easier to read than PDFs, you get reminded of other chips, the books are complete with lots of related stuff, and many other reasons why they are superior. Quote There is SO much that can be learned from those hewlett packard, Tektronix, Systron Donner, Gigatronics, Fluke and many other's service manuals that is not often appreciated. Some of the very best circuit and systems designers I know spent years of their youth studying what was in these service manuals and learning what made these instruments work and why. Two of well known individuals who spent a LOT of time studying these service manuals and tinkering with test gear from this era are Jim Williams & Bob Dobkin. Stories of other with a similar history can be found on the Analog footsteps blog page: http://analogfootsteps.blogspot.com/search/label/Bob%20Dobkin This is the prime reason why there are often post form me about saving and repairing instrumentation from this golden era. There is a LOT more than just the math to fully understanding how a circuit and it's environment behaves as a unit system. Spending time with these instruments can be an excellent teaching and learning experience. Yes indeed, I see you are a man after my own heart. I also have the view that these works are not just a history, but a critical resource should there be any kind of civilization glitch. Most people believe such ideas are silly, but that is just a bad case of normalcy bias. I know from my study of human history (and academic studies like Tainter's 'The collapse of complex societies') that such collapses are the norm in the human story, not the exception. Good luck using 'online pdfs' after a decade or two (or 20, or 100) of no power, fuel or technical education system. A great deal of the technical foundation of our society has zero adequately preserved 'seed bank of knowledge.' Those service manuals from the 60s through early 90s (before the lawyers and bean counters put a stop to that) are a unique treasure, in the way they detail everything about how the instruments worked. And on paper, that can last hundreds of years if simply kept dry and safe from the elements. Which doesn't require high tech efforts, unlike say maintaining a bank of hard disks and their regular replacement. Also, and this is very important - ink on paper can't be edited and deliberately corrupted or expunged. If it's there, it's original and true. Something that can't be relied on with digital copies. If you think deliberate 'historical revision' doesn't happen with digital media, you are not paying attention. It happens all the time with film and music for instance. For those who were wondering why I was spitting mad about ManualsPlus being trashed, this is why. I consider that event a kind of vandalism against the foundations of civilization itself. And no, 'saving one copy of each in rented storage', while slightly better than nothing, isn't good enough. I really do think some people should be shot for the destruction of that library. Not the victims, like Becky, or the people who tried hard and did what they could with inadequate resources. But definitely the business owner, for either incompetence or deliberate acts resulting in the destruction. Ah well. Centralization of anything is bad, since it exposes the thing to infiltration of control by those who would destroy it. In a hundred years, it's going to be printed collections of knowledge kept safe privately by people like Rupunzell that will have made a difference. Too bad there are so few who see the value. But I suppose that is the usual way by which things once relatively common become extremely rare (or completely lost) over time. ------------------------