25 Apr
2002
25 Apr
'02
6:43 a.m.
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:46:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ethan Dicks <erd_6502(a)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone Care About RT-11
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
In-Reply-To: <3CC7778C.D5B157B3(a)compsys.to>
--- "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinepw4z(a)compsys.to> wrote:
The RKV11D is really an RK11D with a different bus interface.
Sort of a built-in Qniverter.
Unfortunately the designers skimped on the extended address bits,
so the RKV11 is 16-bit address space.
I think that hardware hacks to add two address bits to make the RKV11
compatible with the RK!1 have been published, but I don't remember where.
carl
--
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
...I also acquired some RK05 packs with old RT-11
distributions that I
hope to make available as soon as I can find a controller for a Qbus
or someone with both a working RK05 and something more
recent such as an RL02. From the RL02, the final step is to
make copies available via a CD.
I have an RKV11D, numerous Qbus boxes and processors (this one came
attached to an 11/03, but I have lots of KDF11 stuff and one KDJ11
that I have yet to power on (it has a BA213 handle which I haven't
removed yet, and it does not fit into a BA11N or BA23 as-is). I
also have RLV11s and RLV12s and RL02 drives in close enough proximity
to be useful. I haven't fired up the RK05 in several years, so I'm not
sure about the state of the rubber parts, etc., but it's all accessible
and somewhat easy to reassemble. It worked the last time I used it.
I presume the RK11D does, but I wasn't sure how interchangable they
were fron a driver standpoint (Unibus and Qbus drivers can have issues
with mapping registers being handled differently, etc. Assumptions of
intercompatibility are unwise; we had completely different drivers for
our Unibus and Qbus products back in the old days). 
26 Apr
26 Apr
8:29 a.m.
New subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11)
--- Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)proxima.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> From: Ethan Dicks <erd_6502(a)yahoo.com>
> I have an RKV11D...
I also happen to have an RK11C, but in 18 years, I have never managed
to hook it up and power it on. Got the prints, got spares, got drives,
etc. Don't got enough time. :-(
The RKV11D is really an RK11D with a different bus
interface.
Sort of a built-in Qniverter.
That makes sense. The handle numbers on the boards in the controller
enclosure match the RK11D, so I figured that was what was going on.
Looks like a 16-bit bus extender paddle card for the Qbus end, plus
a strange bus interface in the controller box.
The IB11 is similar, but is a dual-height IVB11 (IEEE-488 interface,
standard equipment in a MINC) in a 4-slot, hex-height backplane with
a DEC bus perverter, meant to be mounted in a BA-11.
Unfortunately the designers skimped on the extended
address bits,
so the RKV11 is 16-bit address space.
Not surprising. That seriously limits what I can do with it.
I may try to resurrect the 11/03 that this RKV11D came with, but I'd
be limited in what I could do with RT-11 at that point. Will Kermit-11
work for me if I only have 56KB of RAM? Is it possible to run a KDF11
CPU in a 16-bit-address environment? All I really want to do is make
physical backups of disk packs, etc., and get them to a CD burner.
I think that hardware hacks to add two address bits to
make the RKV11
compatible with the RK!1 have been published, but I don't remember where.
Ooh! I'd love to see it. I _do_ have some 22-bit bus extender cards/
cables (from a dual BA23 uVAX system)... so if the BC08 cables are
wired the same, I might be able to forego modding the Qbus end.
At this point, I may have to start digging into a couple of cabinets
I got last year that came with multiple RK05 drives - I haven't
completely gone over them, but I presume the RK controller is an RK11D.
At least, I didn't see an RK11C. Hard to miss... somewhat large. I
should get some pictures.
I might have to switch gears and go with an 11/34 or 11/24 for my
media rescue box. I should be able to accomodate DECtape I, DECtape II
(which I can already do with a PeeCee), RK05J (16-bit), RL01, RL02,
RX01 (not sure if I have an RX211) and 1600 bpi tape (TU-80, so no other
densities).
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
28 Apr
28 Apr
2:58 p.m.
New subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11)
Ethan Dicks wrote:
--- Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)proxima.ucsd.edu>
wrote:
Jerome Fine replies:
I have an RK05 drive - probably working, but no Qbus controller. I also
don't have enough time, but before I have to weed the patch of old
PDP-11 Qbus systems (I don't have any Unibus systems since they
are just too heavy), I want to transfer a number of old RT-11 distributions
to a hard disk drive and then to a CD.
> From: Ethan Dicks
<erd_6502(a)yahoo.com>
> I have an RKV11D...
I also happen to have an RK11C, but in 18 years, I have
never managed
to hook it up and power it on. Got the prints, got spares, got drives,
etc. Don't got enough time. :-( The RKV11D is
really an RK11D with a different bus interface.
Sort of a built-in Qniverter.
That makes sense. The handle numbers on the boards
in the controller
enclosure match the RK11D, so I figured that was what was going on. Looks like a 16-bit bus extender paddle card for the
Qbus end, plus
a strange bus interface in the controller box.
That long ago, DEC did many strange things.
Unfortunately
the designers skimped on the extended address bits,
so the RKV11 is 16-bit address space.
Not surprising. That seriously limits what
I can do with it. I may try to resurrect the 11/03 that this RKV11D came
with, but I'd
be limited in what I could do with RT-11 at that point. Will Kermit-11
work for me if I only have 56KB of RAM? Is it possible to run a KDF11
CPU in a 16-bit-address environment? All I really want to do is make
physical backups of disk packs, etc., and get them to a CD burner.
It is also possible to run a KDJ11 system with just 56 KBytes of RAM!
And with the KDJ11, it is usually possible (normally there are actually
64 KBytes of RAM, but the IOPAGE takes away 8 KBytes) if you have
the correct memory boards (like the M8044s) to reduce the IOPAGE
to 4 KBytes and then have 60 KBytes of memory.
As for running with RT11FB (or even RT11SJ which slows things down
too much), RT-11 will run Kermit very well in a 56 KByte memory
space. If you can copy the files to a SCSI hard drive, then the second
stage is a CD.
I think that
hardware hacks to add two address bits to make the RKV11
compatible with the RK!1 have been published, but I don't remember where.
Ooh!
I'd love to see it. I _do_ have some 22-bit bus extender cards/
cables (from a dual BA23 uVAX system)... so if the BC08 cables are
wired the same, I might be able to forego modding the Qbus end.
29 Apr
29 Apr
9:36 a.m.
New subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11)
--- "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinepw4z(a)compsys.to> wrote:
Yes. I'm sure it was unpopular, but I do have one.
I know such things can be done. I have never written a driver to
do it. I have also not ever written an RT-11 driver, but that
wouldn't stop me.
Ethan Dicks
wrote:
> The RKV11D is really an RK11D with a different bus interface...
So DEC actually made a Qbus compatible controller for the RK05? > so the
RKV11 is 16-bit address space.
If necessary, you could add a bounce buffer to the device driver
to take care of the problem. I did this with the DYX.SYS
driver - worked very well. It is also possible to run a KDJ11 system with just 56
KBytes of RAM!
Well, yes; I'm sure it is, but there's no point to that. I might as well
use an 11/23+ board (SIO and boot ROMs onboard - just add disk and RAM,
and if you are using/simulating a TU-58, disk is optional).
As for running with RT11FB (or even RT11SJ which slows
things down
too much), RT-11 will run Kermit very well in a 56 KByte memory
space.
OK. I thought so, but I haven't run Kermit on an -11 in a very long
time.
If you can copy the files to a SCSI hard drive, then
the second
stage is a CD.
If I had a Qbus (or Unibus) SCSI controller, I wouldn't have such
a quandry.
Available Qbus interfaces - RLV11, RLV12, RKV11D, DQ614 (haven't gotten
it working yet), KDA50 (still in the box; haven't use it yet), RQDX(123)
Available disks for the above: RL01, RL02, RK05J, various MFM disks DEC
and non-DEC, RA70, RA81, RA60
Mostly, when I put together a Qbus PDP-11, it has an RL02 or an RQDX
w/MFM drive on it. Those are my most "universal" drive sets. It's
also why I never went very far with 2BSD - 2xRL02 is kind awkward,
and MSCP isn't supported under 2.9BSD (and 2.11BSD requires a split I&D
CPU which I only recently acquired).
My expectation was to put an RLV11 or RLV12 in the same box as the
RKV11D and squirt a physical backup out the serial port, even if I
had to write the squirter myself. If I could use Kermit-11, that
would simplify transfer, as long as I had enough space to crunch
full RK05 disk images to a file on, say, an RL02 pack (probably have
enough room for one image + RT-11 + utilities on an RL01 pack, but
the RL01 drives are not here and the RL02 is).
What I _really_ need to do is perform this feat in pieces - I have
a couple of RL02 packs I need to archive, some with my own work from
15 years ago that I left behind with the boss that he later gave back
to me and does not exist anywhere else in the world. I was thinking
of making a physical transfer utility that I can tell "do the front 50%,
now the back 50%", etc., and export the backup in stripes and recombine,
probably under UNIX with "cat".
I don't know if this request is reasonable, but
anyone who can loan me
a Qbus RK05 controller can have the RK05 drive after I copy the
RK05 files to a SCSI hard drive. They can have the RK05 packs
as well.
I'll consider this. Would you want me to test the RKV11D first? I'm
in Ohio, so shipping becomes noticable overhead.
I do need to get the RKV11D back - I need its cables and paddle card
for my RK8E - same goodies and I need a working RK8E more than a
working RKV11D. I can always move things back and forth, especially
if the -8 is in the same rack or next to the RKV11D. I can't imagine
needing both controllers at once.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
10:40 p.m.
New subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11)
On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 02:36:06PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote:
and MSCP isn't supported under 2.9BSD
Wasn't there someone who wrote a MSCP driver or 2.9BSD recently?
Check the PUPS mailing list archive...
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
30 Apr
30 Apr
5:58 a.m.
New subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11)
--- Jochen Kunz <jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 02:36:06PM -0700, Ethan Dicks
wrote:
Well... yes. Recently. I was playing with a magtape of 2.9BSD circa
1987, trying to load it onto my 11/24. Well... I _did_ load it
onto my 11/24. I even dropped $300 on Terry Kennedy for a KT24 so
I could have more RAM. What stopped me in my tracks was a lack
of a decent disk, not that I could have afforded a UDA50 + SDI disk
at the time. The best I was able to do personally was 3 RL02s
on the same machine at the same time (by pooling my entire drive
rack onto one controller). I might have been able to pick up
a Unibus ESDI or SMD controller and a 100MB drive, but when I started
all of this, I didn't even have a hard disk on my Amiga (that was
$500 for 20MB MFM drive+controller, compared with $1,000 for a C-Net
and 20MB SCSI drive, but that's another story).
This was all before Linux, when running Unix at home was "L@@K
R@RE!" Now, it's nothing special.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
and MSCP isn't supported under 2.9BSD
Wasn't there someone who wrote a MSCP driver or 2.9BSD recently?
Check the PUPS mailing list archive... 
29 Apr
29 Apr
11:33 a.m.
New subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11)
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text
Size: 795 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/38fde5b4/at…
8056
days inactive
8061
days old
6 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cdl＠proxima.ucsd.edu -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
jhfinepw4z＠compsys.to -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de