21 Mar
2015
21 Mar
'15
7:23 a.m.
From: Roe Peterson
There are very likely lead bars in the bottom rear of
the rack
I recall finding one in some machine (don't remember what, now); they are
so the thing won't fall over when something is extended/swung out.
Noel
21 Mar
21 Mar
9:38 a.m.
On 03/21/2015 09:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Yes, machines that had tape drives that swung out on hinges
or big removable pack hard drives on chassis slides might
have this. The PDP-11/45 had outriggers that were attached
to the front of the rack before you could roll the CPU out
for maintenance. (Generally left permanently in place, but
removed when shipping the unit.)
Jon
From: Roe
Peterson
There are very likely lead bars in the bottom
rear of the rack
I recall finding one in some machine (don't remember what, now); they are
so the thing won't fall over when something is extended/swung out.
Noel
10:02 a.m.
I answer to all in this post, because there came so much replies! Thanks for all!By the
way, this IBM is very important to Finnish computer culture, because this is one of the
firsts what here is used process control. Guys who program this back then, are still here.
I'll contact original programmers soon as I get this back to power, lets see how they
react when they hear this :DTrucks, forklifts, etc. is not problem, I have lot of friends
who have with that kind of equipment. Problem is they can't allow to remove windows or
dig hole on the wall, also I have very limited time to do the job andndistance between my
place and IBM is several hundreds of kilometers. That staircase have another problem, it
makes turn another way in half way, so there is hard to use winch at last part of stairs.
I could rent stair crawler, but those not can't carry more than normal hand truck.At
(metal) machine builder view, hollow rhs beams and some transformers can't weight ton.
Also if look gate array hinges, they are not for hundred kilos weights. At parts list
can't be seen any part number for weights, maybe weights at OEM manual are absolute
maximum weights. Center of gravity is quite high, so there could some weights at bottom of
rack, but why those are not listed parts manual? Can someone who have 1800 check what
there is bottom of rack?And yes, this is for 50Hz grid (luckily, otherwise I should have
to make frequency converter...), I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer
somewhere.So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make better plan how to
disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take photos, but I'm
sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that bad, power sources
out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges. Quick assembly before
loading goods to truck (when you remember still where parts were).I have plenty of room
for machines and I'm making new warehouse where I sacralize part of it for old
computers. I can reveal little bit my plans for this IBM, it probably get original
simulation of its purpose, plant management, but before that I have real unusual project:
to get this to Assembly computer fair's demo competition at Helsinki, so energy drink
addicted CS player's some real iron running realtime vector graphics :D (...it should
be possible what I have calculated, at least streaming points from hard drive).Of course I
need some kind of vector display (there is probably Tektronics vector terminals, but those
are not suitable for realtime graphics), so if anyone spare 2250, please info (I'm
sure there is no one ;) otherwise I have to make one... I hope this kind of project not
sound totally sacrilege :D ...but I promise there is not going to be harmed any old
computer at that performance ;)
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:38:51 -0500
From: elson at pico-systems.com
To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at
classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
On 03/21/2015 09:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Yes, machines that had tape drives that swung out on hinges
or big removable pack hard drives on chassis slides might
have this. The PDP-11/45 had outriggers that were attached
to the front of the rack before you could roll the CPU out
for maintenance. (Generally left permanently in place, but
removed when shipping the unit.)
Jon
From: Roe
Peterson
There are very likely lead bars in the bottom
rear of the rack
I recall finding one in some machine (don't remember what, now); they are
so the thing won't fall over when something is extended/swung out.
Noel
10:06 a.m.
I answer to all in this post, because there came so much replies! Thanks for all!
By the way, this IBM is very important to Finnish computer culture, because this is one of
the firsts what here is used process control. Guys who program this back then, are still
here. I'll contact original programmers soon as I get this back to power, lets see how
they react when they hear this :D
Trucks, forklifts, etc. is not problem, I have lot of friends who have with that kind of
equipment. Problem is they can't allow to remove windows or dig hole on the wall, also
I have very limited time to do the job andndistance between my place and IBM is several
hundreds of kilometers. That staircase have another problem, it makes turn another way in
half way, so there is hard to use winch at last part of stairs. I could rent stair
crawler, but those not can't carry more than normal hand truck.
At (metal) machine builder view, hollow rhs beams and some transformers can't weight
ton. Also if look gate array hinges, they are not for hundred kilos weights. At parts list
can't be seen any part number for weights, maybe weights at OEM manual are absolute
maximum weights. Center of gravity is quite high, so there could some weights at bottom of
rack, but why those are not listed parts manual? Can someone who have 1800 check what
there is bottom of rack?
And yes, this is for 50Hz grid (luckily, otherwise I should have to make frequency
converter...), I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer somewhere.
So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make better plan how to disassemble
cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take photos, but I'm sure something
could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that bad, power sources out, gate arrays
can be removed releasing connectors and hinges. Quick assembly before loading goods to
truck (when you remember still where parts were).
I have plenty of room for machines and I'm making new warehouse where I sacralize part
of it for old computers. I can reveal little bit my plans for this IBM, it probably get
original simulation of its purpose, plant management, but before that I have real unusual
project: to get this to Assembly computer fair's demo competition at Helsinki, so
energy drink addicted CS player's some real iron running realtime vector graphics :D
(...it should be possible what I have calculated, at least streaming points from hard
drive).
Of course I need some kind of vector display (there is probably Tektronics vector
terminals, but those are not suitable for realtime graphics), so if anyone spare 2250,
please info (I'm sure there is no one ;) otherwise I have to make one... I hope this
kind of project not sound totally sacrilege :D ...but I promise there is not going to be
harmed any old computer at that performance ;)
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:02:20 +0200
I answer to all in this post, because there came so much replies! Thanks for all!By the
way, this IBM is very important to Finnish computer culture, because this is one of the
firsts what here is used process control. Guys who program this back then, are still here.
I'll contact original programmers soon as I get this back to power, lets see how they
react when they hear this :DTrucks, forklifts, etc. is not problem, I have lot of friends
who have with that kind of equipment. Problem is they can't allow to remove windows or
dig hole on the wall, also I have very limited time to do the job andndistance between my
place and IBM is several hundreds of kilometers. That staircase have another problem, it
makes turn another way in half way, so there is hard to use winch at last part of stairs.
I could rent stair crawler, but those not can't carry more than normal hand truck.At
(metal) machine builder view, hollow rhs beams and some transformers can't weight ton.
Also if look gate array hinges, they are not for hundred kilos weights. At parts list
can't be seen any part number for weights, maybe weights at OEM manual are absolute
maximum weights. Center of gravity is quite high, so there could some weights at bottom of
rack, but why those are not listed parts manual? Can someone who have 1800 check what
there is bottom of rack?And yes, this is for 50Hz grid (luckily, otherwise I should have
to make frequency converter...), I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer
somewhere.So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make better plan how to
disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take photos, but I'm
sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that bad, power sources
out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges. Quick assembly before
loading goods to truck (when you remember still where parts were).I have plenty of room
for machines and I'm making new warehouse where I sacralize part of it for old
computers. I can reveal little bit my plans for this IBM, it probably get original
simulation of its purpose, plant management, but before that I have real unusual project:
to get this to Assembly computer fair's demo competition at Helsinki, so energy drink
addicted CS player's some real iron running realtime vector graphics :D (...it should
be possible what I have calculated, at least streaming points from hard drive).Of course I
need some kind of vector display (there is probably Tektronics vector terminals, but those
are not suitable for realtime graphics), so if anyone spare 2250, please info (I'm
sure there is no one ;) otherwise I have to make one... I hope this kind of project not
sound totally sacrilege :D ...but I promise there is not going to be harmed any old
computer at that performance ;)
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:38:51 -0500
From: elson at pico-systems.com
To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at
classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
On 03/21/2015 09:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Yes, machines that had tape drives that swung out on hinges
or big removable pack hard drives on chassis slides might
have this. The PDP-11/45 had outriggers that were attached
to the front of the rack before you could roll the CPU out
for maintenance. (Generally left permanently in place, but
removed when shipping the unit.)
Jon
From: Roe
Peterson
There are very likely lead bars in the bottom
rear of the rack
I recall finding one in some machine (don't remember what, now); they are
so the thing won't fall over when something is extended/swung out.
Noel
11:25 a.m.
On 03/21/2015 12:02 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer
somewhere.
A quick look at the FE manual seems to indicate it uses a
bunch of "medium power converters"
which seem to be modular transformer/rectifier/regulator
type supplies. I think these are made
to pull out fairly easily as field replaceable units, so
that might get the weight down.
I also looked in some 360 docs and they had wildly different
weights listed for the same box in different
configurations. This makes me think these are NOT weights
of individual cabinets but total system weights in different
configurations.
Clearly, the machine in your picture is a larger
configuration with a number of cabinets added to the CPU box.
So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make
better plan how to disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take
photos, but I'm sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that
bad, power sources out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges.
I'd be very careful about removing "gates". There will be a
LOT!!! of wires, and the wire-wrap side of the boards are
pretty fragile. (This is an SLT machine, build much the same
as a 360, so I know a fair bit about how those are put
together. The gates are not going to be very heavy, it may
be much better to leave them in place.
The disks are probably ruined from dust accumulation, and
these disk drives likely have metal (not ceramic) heads, and
will require a lot of work to get running again. I think
these use the same scheme as the 2314, with hydraulic head
positioners. They will almost certainly have to be rebuilt
completely. I'd clean the tops of the drives carefully
before opening the lids, and try to be very careful to not
get any more dirt in there when removing the packs.
it may be a fool's errand to try to get the 2311 drives to
ever work again, possibly a fairly simple device could be
built that emulates the signals. The 2311 and 2314
"protocol" is extremely simple.
Jon
11:47 a.m.
Thanks Jon for tips!
No, that is not option, I mean 2311 is have to get back to life ;) I think use ultrasonic
or carbon ice cleaning for 2311 and disk packs. Both are quire gentle cleaning methods. I
like to dump core and all disc packs for future uses ( = make original configuration).
I noticed too there is wire warppibgs at back, but can assemble gate arrays back to their
places after stair case, so those are not rolling all around in truck.
I agree, I can't see why CPU would weight almost ton.
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:25:39 -0500
From: elson at pico-systems.com
To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at
classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
On 03/21/2015 12:02 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC
transformer somewhere.
A quick look at the FE manual seems to indicate it uses a
bunch of "medium power converters"
which seem to be modular transformer/rectifier/regulator
type supplies. I think these are made
to pull out fairly easily as field replaceable units, so
that might get the weight down.
I also looked in some 360 docs and they had wildly different
weights listed for the same box in different
configurations. This makes me think these are NOT weights
of individual cabinets but total system weights in different
configurations.
Clearly, the machine in your picture is a larger
configuration with a number of cabinets added to the CPU box.
So, my only plan is now to get small items first,
make better plan how to disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and
take photos, but I'm sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not
that bad, power sources out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges.
I'd be very careful about removing "gates". There will be a
LOT!!! of wires, and the wire-wrap side of the boards are
pretty fragile. (This is an SLT machine, build much the same
as a 360, so I know a fair bit about how those are put
together. The gates are not going to be very heavy, it may
be much better to leave them in place.
The disks are probably ruined from dust accumulation, and
these disk drives likely have metal (not ceramic) heads, and
will require a lot of work to get running again. I think
these use the same scheme as the 2314, with hydraulic head
positioners. They will almost certainly have to be rebuilt
completely. I'd clean the tops of the drives carefully
before opening the lids, and try to be very careful to not
get any more dirt in there when removing the packs.
it may be a fool's errand to try to get the 2311 drives to
ever work again, possibly a fairly simple device could be
built that emulates the signals. The 2311 and 2314
"protocol" is extremely simple.
Jon
12:39 p.m.
On 03/21/2015 01:47 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
Thanks Jon for tips!
No, that is not option, I mean 2311 is have to get back to life ;) I think use
ultrasonic or carbon ice cleaning for 2311 and disk packs. Both are quire gentle cleaning
methods.
You have to be very careful with anything that requires
temperature extremes. Can anybody verify the 2311 uses the
hydraulic head positioner? If the oxide coating of the
packs has deteriorated, which I think is quite possible,
then the disks will not be usable. Anybody else have
experience with 14" disk packs from 40" years ago?
The other problem is this machine uses SLT. That was never
a super-reliable technology. They start with 1/2" square
ceramic substrates, and fire thin film resistors onto them,
then print and fire thick film wiring. Then they use
bump-bonded discrete transistors and diodes, and solder
these by bump bonds to the wiring, and add leads. Then,
because the transistors and diodes are not well-passivated,
they smear silicone goop over it and epoxy on the die-drawn
aluminum covers. These are not totally hermetic, and oxygen
gets inside and slowly deteriorates the semiconductor
devices. They also had some problems with the solder joints
to them developing cracks.
So, the likelihood of the CPU actually working after FORTY
years of storage is pretty small. There are, of course, no
replacements for SLT modules, as IBM stopped making them in
the late 1960's! It was a form of diode-transistor logic,
and not terribly dense. A single flip-flop would not fit in
one SLT module, it took at least 2, and the usual scheme was
to integrate some steering gates with it and ended up with
about 4 modules to implement the typical register bit. They
didn't use what we think of today as a FF, they used D
latches, as it was simpler to implement, but required
several clock phases. One clock phase to latch input data
to the ALU, wait for the ALU to settle, then a pulse to
latch the result out of the ALU.
I like to dump core and all disc packs for future
uses ( = make original configuration).
I wouldn't worry about what is left in
core, it would be
interesting, but you might have to do a lot of testing and
repair before enough of the machine is working to read it out.
Be very careful with the disk drives. If you even get a
scratch on the heads, you will not be able to replace them.
Also, if anything at all happens to the heads, you will need
an alignment pack to realign any replaced heads. Do you
have ANY experience with old-school mainframe equipment? If
you think you will just dust this thing off, mount the disk
packs and fire it up, you are quite crazy!
Jon
12:50 p.m.
OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic!
(The following comes from my knowledge of the 2314, but it
is likely to be similar.) These had a Cessna hydraulic pump
belt-driven by the same belt that turned the spindle. Short
hoses connected it to a big tank at the back. This acted as
the fluid reservoir as well a a housing for the servo valve
and the linear actuator. It is very likely the seals on the
pump, valve and actuator have deteriorated, and the hoses
are cracked and brittle. If you were to fire it up, the
hoses might blow, and spray oil all over the inside of the
drive. This has happened at the two installations I was at,
while under IBM maintenance in the early 1970's. It caused
a lot of damage.
Jon
3:15 p.m.
On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed
hydraulic!
The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on
night a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out,
but the damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or
actuators exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the
packs and drives.
IBM had to air freight in an entire subsystem to replace it. The
datacenter was down for about a week. Main system was a 360/50 MVT /
HASP system FWIW.
This 1800 would be a great system to preserve and eventually restore.
I agree with Jon, hard to tell how to actually run these disks now days.
(BTW, Jon and I are from UMR)
thanks
Jim
8:23 p.m.
On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil
spraying event there, but it was relatively contained. We
had one at Washington University, also that might have
contaminated several spindles before they got all the packs
unloaded.
I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer
room is occupied, it causes a strong oily smell that is
quickly spread by the A/C system.
Jon
OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed
hydraulic!
The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was
hydraulic, and on night a drive's actuator unloaded into
the pack area, and took it out, but the damage from that
major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators
exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all
the packs and drives.
22 Mar
22 Mar
10:53 a.m.
On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson <elson at
pico-systems.com> wrote:
On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the 2311. The
system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the failed seals, and I
obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the chemistry department. He used that
with Kimwipes to clean the oil from pack and heads. The result was complete success.
Packs and heads in those days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn?t want to try that with
anything much newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might
give that technique a try.
paul
On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying event
there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington University, also that
might have contaminated several spindles before they got all the packs unloaded.
I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is occupied, it causes a
strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed
hydraulic!
The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on
night a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the damage
from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators exiting the enclosure.
however the debris took out all the packs and drives.
3:50 p.m.
On 03/22/2015 12:53 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
We had
a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the 2311. The system
drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the failed seals, and I obtained
some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the chemistry department. He used that with
Kimwipes to clean the oil from pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs
and heads in those days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn?t want to try that with
anything much newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might
give that technique a try.
You had to be VERY careful, and use the correct solvent to
not harm the magnetic coating. As long as the pack was not
mounted when this happened, the heads and pack could be
laboriously cleaned. if the pack was mounted, it would
cause a huge disaster, burning the disk and heads.
Jon
27 Mar
27 Mar
2:02 p.m.
I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...) and we had
big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think I have infected him
of old computer disease, he had very excited this project too, haha! :) Original plan was
to pickup some small items today, but it was impossible, because of all my hurry at work
:/
But now I have good, interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news
first: it seems that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That
company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it... Also there is
"small" dust problem, it is every freaking place!
Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I excepted. Second, and
more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as mushroom farm ;)
Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick look, and I found tens of IBMs
original documents! And also it is still fully enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are
laying around and almost all stuff what is know used back then, is still there (except
Tektronix displays, GRRR!).
****
And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only option, it is absolute
enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make sleigh of RHS beams, plywood and
polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on stairs by winch. That's the plan and it
should (and would) work!
More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
Oh, the pictures:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp…
Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
From: paulkoning at comcast.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson <elson
at pico-systems.com> wrote:
On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the 2311. The
system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the failed seals, and I
obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the chemistry department. He used that
with Kimwipes to clean the oil from pack and heads. The result was complete success.
Packs and heads in those days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn?t want to try that with
anything much newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might
give that technique a try.
paul
On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying event
there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington University, also that
might have contaminated several spindles before they got all the packs unloaded.
I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is occupied, it causes a
strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed
hydraulic!
The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on
night a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the damage
from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators exiting the enclosure.
however the debris took out all the packs and drives.
2:08 p.m.
What is the lone big red box over by the shelves with the binders and
books? 2841?
--
Will
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Johannes Thelen
<johannesthelen at hotmail.com> wrote:
I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...) and we had
big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think I have infected him
of old computer disease, he had very excited this project too, haha! :) Original plan was
to pickup some small items today, but it was impossible, because of all my hurry at work
:/
But now I have good, interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news
first: it seems that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That
company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it... Also there is
"small" dust problem, it is every freaking place!
Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I excepted. Second,
and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as mushroom farm ;)
Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick look, and I found tens of IBMs
original documents! And also it is still fully enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are
laying around and almost all stuff what is know used back then, is still there (except
Tektronix displays, GRRR!).
****
And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only option, it is absolute
enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make sleigh of RHS beams, plywood and
polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on stairs by winch. That's the plan and it
should (and would) work!
More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
Oh, the pictures:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp…
Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some
help)
From: paulkoning at comcast.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson <elson
at pico-systems.com> wrote:
On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the 2311. The
system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the failed seals, and I
obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the chemistry department. He used that
with Kimwipes to clean the oil from pack and heads. The result was complete success.
Packs and heads in those days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn?t want to try that with
anything much newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might
give that technique a try.
paul
On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic!
The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on night a drive's
actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the damage from that major
failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators exiting the enclosure. however the debris
took out all the packs and drives.
This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying event
there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington University, also that
might have contaminated several spindles before they got all the packs unloaded.
I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is occupied, it causes a
strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. 
2:12 p.m.
Wow.....
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
Johannes Thelen
Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...)
and
we
had big time with plant manager when we went throught
the stash! I think I
have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this
project
too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small
items today, but it
was
impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now
I have good,
interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it
seems
that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at
the pics. That
company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it...
Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place!
Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I
excepted.
Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse
had used as
mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick
look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still
fully
enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying
around and almost all
stuff
what is know used back then, is still there (except
Tektronix displays,
GRRR!).
****
And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only option,
it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make
sleigh of
RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole
set is lowered on
stairs
by winch. That's the plan and it should (and
would) work!
More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing
Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
night
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some
help)
From: paulkoning at comcast.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
> On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
wrote:
> >
> > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic!
> >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on
a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area,
and took it out, but the
damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators
exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and
drives.
> >>
> > This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying
event
there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at
Washington
University,
also that might have contaminated several spindles
before they got all the
packs unloaded.
> > I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is
occupied,
it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread
by the A/C system.
>
> We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to
the
2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field
service tech replaced
the
failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade
isopropyl alcohol from the
chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from
pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in
those
days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to
try that with anything
much
newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads
or packs, you might
give that technique a try.
paul
2:19 p.m.
Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project!
m
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G4UGM" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some
help)
Wow.....
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech
[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On
Behalf Of
Johannes Thelen
Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some
help)
I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving!
I'm little bit exhausted...)
and we
had big time with plant manager when we went
throught the stash! I think I
have infected him of old computer disease, he
had very excited this
project
too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some
small items today, but it
was
impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/
But now I have good,
interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets
take the bad news first: it
seems
that machine have donate some parts as can be
seen at the pics. That
company had another 1800, maybe some parts have
been picked out for it...
Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every
freaking place!
Then interesting news: it have been used to
since 1986, longer as I
excepted.
Second, and more interesting fact, that same
warehouse had used as
mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents
every where! Just quick
look, and I found tens of IBMs original
documents! And also it is still
fully
enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are
laying around and almost all
stuff
what is know used back then, is still there
(except Tektronix displays,
GRRR!).
****
And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh
and thats really only option,
it is absolute enourmous work to but it small
pieces. I have to make
sleigh of
RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This
whole set is lowered on
stairs
by winch. That's the plan and it should (and
would) work!
More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
Oh, the pictures:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing
Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D
Thaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
night
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need
some help)
From: paulkoning at comcast.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
> On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson
> <elson at pico-systems.com>
wrote:
> >
> > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was
> >>> indeed hydraulic!
> >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive
> >> 2314 was hydraulic, and on a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack
area,
and took it out, but the
damage from that major failure was contained
w/o the pack or actuators
exiting the enclosure. however the debris took
out all the packs and
drives.
> >>
> > This one wasn't when I was there. I think
> > we also had a oil spraying
event
there, but it was relatively contained. We had
one at Washington
University,
also that might have contaminated several
spindles before they got all the
packs unloaded.
> > I think this one is fairly quickly detected
> > if the computer room is
occupied,
it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly
spread by the A/C system.
>
> We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of
> 1311s, which are similar to
the
2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The
field service tech replaced
the
failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade
isopropyl alcohol from the
chemistry department. He used that with
Kimwipes to clean the oil from
pack and heads. The result was complete
success. Packs and heads in
those
days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't
want
to try that with anything
much
newer. But if you have a 2311 with
contaminated heads or packs, you might
give that technique a try.
paul
2:20 p.m.
That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made.
--
Will
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project!
m
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" <dave.g4ugm at
gmail.com>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" <cctech at
classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
Wow.....
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
Johannes Thelen
Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...)
and we
had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think
I
have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this
project
too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it
was
impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have good,
interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it
seems
that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That
company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it...
Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place!
Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I
excepted.
Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as
mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick
look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still
fully
enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all
stuff
what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays,
GRRR!).
****
And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only
option,
it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make
sleigh of
RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on
stairs
by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work!
More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing
Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
night
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need >
some help)
From: paulkoning at comcast.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
> On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > <elson at pico-systems.com>
wrote:
> >
> > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>> indeed
hydraulic!
> >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314 was
hydraulic,
> >> and on
a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the
damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators
exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and
drives.
> >>
> > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also had a oil
> > spraying
event
there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington
University,
also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all
the
packs unloaded.
> > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the computer room
> > is
occupied,
it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system.
>
> We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are similar
> to
the
2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced
the
failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from
the
chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from
pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in
those
days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with anything
much
newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you
might
give that technique a try.
paul
28 Mar
28 Mar
4:54 a.m.
Hello everybody!
It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow they made that
stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who would do something like this
big/crazy project even they would want, it is question of time/space/money, but mostly
will and too far gone old computer obsession :D
By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that is not that
big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with, maybe she has some IBM
Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything :D
One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish girl's name, usually
computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can be named later by workers, I
think it probably had no name originally. However, even it have almost pink dress, I would
not called couple tons weighted monster as "girl", there could better
expressions for it ;) ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure!
Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on real life!) and it
seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily. I hope I can done whole thing under
three days nice and clean, without breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors)
I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get trucks, safety
equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready to go! Also I'm taking with me
welding equipment and wood working stuff, so we can make backup plan on the scene if
needed.
Any ideas or questions are welcome!
Ps. Happy weekend for everyone!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made.
--
Will
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project!
>
> m
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" <dave.g4ugm at
gmail.com>
> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" <cctech at
classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM
>
> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
>
>
>> Wow.....
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Johannes Thelen
>>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
>>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
>>>
>>>
>>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit
exhausted...)
>>
>> and we
>>>
>>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think
>>> I
>>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this
>>
>> project
>>>
>>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it
>>
>> was
>>>
>>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have good,
>>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it
>>
>> seems
>>>
>>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That
>>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it...
>>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place!
>>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I
>>
>> excepted.
>>>
>>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as
>>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick
>>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still
>>
>> fully
>>>
>>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all
>>
>> stuff
>>>
>>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays,
>>
>> GRRR!).
>>>
>>> ****
>>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only
>>> option,
>>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make
>>
>> sleigh of
>>>
>>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on
>>
>> stairs
>>>
>>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work!
>>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
>>> Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
>>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing
>>>
>>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks!
>>>
>>> - Johannes ThelenFinland
>>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
>>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help)
>>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net
>>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
>>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > <elson at
pico-systems.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>>
indeed hydraulic!
>>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314
was hydraulic,
>>> > >> and on
>>
>> night
>>>
>>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but
the
>>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators
>>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and
>>
>> drives.
>>>
>>> > >>
>>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also
had a oil
>>> > > spraying
>>
>> event
>>>
>>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington
>>
>> University,
>>>
>>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all
>>> the
>>> packs unloaded.
>>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the
computer room
>>> > > is
>>
>> occupied,
>>>
>>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system.
>>> >
>>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are
similar
>>> > to
>>
>> the
>>>
>>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced
>>
>> the
>>>
>>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from
>>> the
>>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from
>>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in
>>
>> those
>>>
>>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with
anything
>>
>> much
>>>
>>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you
>>> might
>>> give that technique a try.
>>> >
>>> > paul
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
5:38 a.m.
I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of some
sort on top of
a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software
was available on IBM under MVS/VM. It could either be version 4.1.x
or version 5.0.x. If you come across that pack and it still works,
then you have access to an old and most likely working version of
a RDBMS. In that case, give me a shout and I could help you though
some command and some info to put it in action.
Hi Ed! I'm sure we get it for you ;) ...I have to just book everything what we
carry out there, I think we have no problem to get it for you (shared joy is best joy :)
But I can't find anything else Oracle stuff on the pics than Oracle's Server 7
pack over 1442 card read/punch (that greyish box)..? Did you ment that?
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200
Hello everybody!
It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow they made that
stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who would do something like this
big/crazy project even they would want, it is question of time/space/money, but mostly
will and too far gone old computer obsession :D
By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that is not that
big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with, maybe she has some IBM
Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything :D
One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish girl's name,
usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can be named later by
workers, I think it probably had no name originally. However, even it have almost pink
dress, I would not called couple tons weighted monster as "girl", there could
better expressions for it ;) ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure!
Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on real life!) and it
seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily. I hope I can done whole thing under
three days nice and clean, without breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors)
I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get trucks, safety
equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready to go! Also I'm taking with me
welding equipment and wood working stuff, so we can make backup plan on the scene if
needed.
Any ideas or questions are welcome!
Ps. Happy weekend for everyone!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made.
--
Will
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project!
>
> m
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" <dave.g4ugm at
gmail.com>
> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" <cctech at
classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM
>
> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
>
>
>> Wow.....
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Johannes Thelen
>>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
>>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
>>>
>>>
>>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit
exhausted...)
>>
>> and we
>>>
>>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think
>>> I
>>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this
>>
>> project
>>>
>>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it
>>
>> was
>>>
>>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have good,
>>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it
>>
>> seems
>>>
>>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That
>>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it...
>>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place!
>>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I
>>
>> excepted.
>>>
>>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as
>>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick
>>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still
>>
>> fully
>>>
>>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all
>>
>> stuff
>>>
>>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays,
>>
>> GRRR!).
>>>
>>> ****
>>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only
>>> option,
>>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make
>>
>> sleigh of
>>>
>>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on
>>
>> stairs
>>>
>>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work!
>>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
>>> Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
>>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing
>>>
>>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks!
>>>
>>> - Johannes ThelenFinland
>>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
>>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help)
>>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net
>>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
>>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > <elson at
pico-systems.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>>
indeed hydraulic!
>>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314
was hydraulic,
>>> > >> and on
>>
>> night
>>>
>>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but
the
>>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators
>>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and
>>
>> drives.
>>>
>>> > >>
>>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also
had a oil
>>> > > spraying
>>
>> event
>>>
>>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington
>>
>> University,
>>>
>>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all
>>> the
>>> packs unloaded.
>>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the
computer room
>>> > > is
>>
>> occupied,
>>>
>>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system.
>>> >
>>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are
similar
>>> > to
>>
>> the
>>>
>>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced
>>
>> the
>>>
>>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from
>>> the
>>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from
>>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in
>>
>> those
>>>
>>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with
anything
>>
>> much
>>>
>>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you
>>> might
>>> give that technique a try.
>>> >
>>> > paul
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
8:26 a.m.
On 03/28/2015 07:38 AM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
> I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of
some sort on top of
> a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software
> was available on IBM under MVS/VM.
There were also some 3-ring binders marked
with 360 fortran,
etc. So, there may be manuals that don't belong to this
system, but might be of historical value, anyway.
Jon
9:05 a.m.
Hello Johannes.
I don't need the manual, just noticed it on the pictures.
Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to
find today.
Looking forward to hear more about your efforts moving the machine
--
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
from it's current locattion to the new one and
getting it to work
again.
Regards,
Ed
I also noted
that there is an Oracle manual of some sort on top of
a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software
was available on IBM under MVS/VM. It could either be version 4.1.x
or version 5.0.x. If you come across that pack and it still works,
then you have access to an old and most likely working version of
a RDBMS. In that case, give me a shout and I could help you though
some command and some info to put it in action.
Hi Ed! I'm sure we get it for you ;) ...I have to just book everything
what we carry out there, I think we have no problem to get it for you
(shared joy is best joy :)
But I can't find anything else Oracle stuff on the pics than Oracle's
Server 7 pack over 1442 card read/punch (that greyish box)..? Did you ment
that?
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200
Hello everybody!
It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow
they made that stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who
would do something like this big/crazy project even they would want, it
is question of time/space/money, but mostly will and too far gone old
computer obsession :D
By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that
is not that big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with, maybe she
has some IBM Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything
:D
One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish girl's
name, usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can
be named later by workers, I think it probably had no name originally.
However, even it have almost pink dress, I would not called couple tons
weighted monster as "girl", there could better expressions for it ;)
...but she is pretty in her own way for sure!
Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on
real life!) and it seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily.
I hope I can done whole thing under three days nice and clean, without
breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors)
I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get
trucks, safety equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready
to go! Also I'm taking with me welding equipment and wood working stuff,
so we can make backup plan on the scene if needed.
Any ideas or questions are welcome!
Ps. Happy weekend for everyone!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made.
--
Will
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project!
>
> m
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM"
<dave.g4ugm at
gmail.com>
> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic
Posts'" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM
>
> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
>
>
>> Wow.....
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Johannes Thelen
>>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
>>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
>>>
>>>
>>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit
exhausted...)
>>
>> and we
>>>
>>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I
think
>>> I
>>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited
this
>>
>> project
>>>
>>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today,
but
it
>>
>> was
>>>
>>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have
good,
>>> interesting and of course, bad news
... Lets take the bad news
first: it
>>
>> seems
>>>
>>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics.
That
>>> company had another 1800, maybe some
parts have been picked out
for it...
>>> Also there is "small" dust
problem, it is every freaking place!
>>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as
I
>>
>> excepted.
>>>
>>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as
>>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just
quick
>>> look, and I found tens of IBMs
original documents! And also it is
still
>>
>> fully
>>>
>>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost
all
>>
>> stuff
>>>
>>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix
displays,
>>
>> GRRR!).
>>>
>>> ****
>>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only
>>> option,
>>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to
make
>>
>> sleigh of
>>>
>>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered
on
>>
>> stairs
>>>
>>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work!
>>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
>>> Oh, the pictures:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
>>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing
>>>
>>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks!
>>>
>>> - Johannes ThelenFinland
>>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
>>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help)
>>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net
>>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
>>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > >
<elson
at pico-systems.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>>
indeed
hydraulic!
>>> > >> The University of
Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314 was
hydraulic,
>>> > >> and on
>>
>> night
>>>
>>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out,
but the
>>> damage from that major failure was
contained w/o the pack or
actuators
>>> exiting the enclosure. however the
debris took out all the packs
and
>>
>> drives.
>>>
>>> > >>
>>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also
had a
oil
>>> > > spraying
>>
>> event
>>>
>>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington
>>
>> University,
>>>
>>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got
all
>>> the
>>> packs unloaded.
>>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the
computer room
>>> > > is
>>
>> occupied,
>>>
>>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C
system.
>>> >
>>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are
similar
>>> > to
>>
>> the
>>>
>>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech
replaced
>>
>> the
>>>
>>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol
from
>>> the
>>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil
from
>>> pack and heads. The result was
complete success. Packs and heads
in
>>
>> those
>>>
>>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with
anything
>>
>> much
>>>
>>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs,
you
>>> might
>>> give that technique a try.
>>> >
>>> > paul
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
1:57 p.m.
I don't need the manual, just noticed it on the
pictures.
Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to
find today.
Ok, I understood you wrong. But I'll pick up everything what is
related anything anything old computers! I'll make later catalog of this library,
maybe there is something useful for someone.
Looking forward to hear more about your efforts moving
the machine
from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work
again.
Of course, more updates comes later when project goes further!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 17:05:19 +0100
> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> From: quapla at xs4all.nl
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
> Hello Johannes.
>
I don't need the manual, just noticed it on the
pictures.
Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to
find today.
>
Looking forward to hear more about your efforts moving
the machine
from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work
again.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed
>
>
> >> I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of some sort on top of
> >> a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software
> >> was available on IBM under MVS/VM. It could either be version 4.1.x
> >> or version 5.0.x. If you come across that pack and it still works,
> >> then you have access to an old and most likely working version of
> >> a RDBMS. In that case, give me a shout and I could help you though
> >> some command and some info to put it in action.
> >>
> > Hi Ed! I'm sure we get it for you ;) ...I have to just book everything
> > what we carry out there, I think we have no problem to get it for you
> > (shared joy is best joy :)
> >
> > But I can't find anything else Oracle stuff on the pics than Oracle's
> > Server 7 pack over 1442 card read/punch (that greyish box)..? Did you ment
> > that?
> >
> >
> > - Johannes ThelenFinland
> > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
> > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com
> >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> >> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> >> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello everybody!
> >>
> >> It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow
> >> they made that stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who
> >> would do something like this big/crazy project even they would want, it
> >> is question of time/space/money, but mostly will and too far gone old
> >> computer obsession :D
> >>
> >> By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that
> >> is not that big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with,
maybe she
> >> has some IBM Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything
> >> :D
> >>
> >> One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish
girl's
> >> name, usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can
> >> be named later by workers, I think it probably had no name originally.
> >> However, even it have almost pink dress, I would not called couple tons
> >> weighted monster as "girl", there could better expressions for it
;)
> >> ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure!
> >>
> >> Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on
> >> real life!) and it seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily.
> >> I hope I can done whole thing under three days nice and clean, without
> >> breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors)
> >>
> >>
> >> I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get
> >> trucks, safety equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready
> >> to go! Also I'm taking with me welding equipment and wood working
stuff,
> >> so we can make backup plan on the scene if needed.
> >>
> >> Any ideas or questions are welcome!
> >>
> >> Ps. Happy weekend for everyone!
> >>
> >>
> >> - Johannes ThelenFinland
> >> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
> >> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400
> >> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> >> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com
> >> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> >> >
> >> > That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Will
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at
gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project!
> >> > >
> >> > > m
> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM"
> >> <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> >> > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
> >> > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM
> >> > >
> >> > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >> Wow.....
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On
Behalf Of
> >> > >>> Johannes Thelen
> >> > >>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03
> >> > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
> >> > >>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm
little bit
> >> exhausted...)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> and we
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the
stash! I
> >> think
> >> > >>> I
> >> > >>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very
excited
> >> this
> >> > >>
> >> > >> project
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items
today,
> >> but it
> >> > >>
> >> > >> was
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I
have
> >> good,
> >> > >>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad
news
> >> first: it
> >> > >>
> >> > >> seems
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the
pics.
> >> That
> >> > >>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been
picked out
> >> for it...
> >> > >>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every
freaking place!
> >> > >>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986,
longer as
> >> I
> >> > >>
> >> > >> excepted.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had
used as
> >> > >>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every
where! Just
> >> quick
> >> > >>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And
also it is
> >> still
> >> > >>
> >> > >> fully
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around
and almost
> >> all
> >> > >>
> >> > >> stuff
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> what is know used back then, is still there (except
Tektronix
> >> displays,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> GRRR!).
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> ****
> >> > >>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats
really only
> >> > >>> option,
> >> > >>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I
have to
> >> make
> >> > >>
> >> > >> sleigh of
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is
lowered
> >> on
> >> > >>
> >> > >> stairs
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would)
work!
> >> > >>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
> >> > >>> Oh, the pictures:
> >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
> >> > >>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D
Thaaaaanks!
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> - Johannes ThelenFinland
> >> > >>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
> >> > >>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some
help)
> >> > >>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net
> >> > >>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
> >> > >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> >> > >>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson >
>
> >> <elson at pico-systems.com>
> >> > >>> wrote:
> >> > >>> > >
> >> > >>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
> >> > >>> > >>
> >> > >>> > >>
> >> > >>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >> > >>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was
> >>> indeed
> >> hydraulic!
> >> > >>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive
> >> 2314 was
> >> hydraulic,
> >> > >>> > >> and on
> >> > >>
> >> > >> night
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and
took it out,
> >> but the
> >> > >>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack
or
> >> actuators
> >> > >>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all
the packs
> >> and
> >> > >>
> >> > >> drives.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> > >>
> >> > >>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think
> > we also had a
> >> oil
> >> > >>> > > spraying
> >> > >>
> >> > >> event
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at
Washington
> >> > >>
> >> > >> University,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before
they got
> >> all
> >> > >>> the
> >> > >>> packs unloaded.
> >> > >>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected >
> if the
> >> computer room
> >> > >>> > > is
> >> > >>
> >> > >> occupied,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by
the A/C
> >> system.
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of >
1311s, which are
> >> similar
> >> > >>> > to
> >> > >>
> >> > >> the
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service
tech
> >> replaced
> >> > >>
> >> > >> the
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl
alcohol
> >> from
> >> > >>> the
> >> > >>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean
the oil
> >> from
> >> > >>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs
and heads
> >> in
> >> > >>
> >> > >> those
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try
that with
> >> anything
> >> > >>
> >> > >> much
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or
packs,
> >> you
> >> > >>> might
> >> > >>> give that technique a try.
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > paul
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
>
12 Apr
12 Apr
7:29 a.m.
Some progress...
We made little trip couple days ago and now 1800 is disassembled. It took 6 hours with
breaks to disassemble all doors, side panels, "hats", power sources, floor
cabling and etc stuff. Firstly I thought this IBM is like some spaceship on its
complexity, but this is quite simple machine. Very straightforward design, every part has
own logical place and there is not too much cabling (and everything is clearly labeled!).
There was four of us, so I think we made quite progress in that time. Also we had to
measure every cable before touching them, there was little possiability there is still
some "hot" cables (mostly because same wires can go throught cable ducts which
are still use and electrify floating wires by induction).
Here's pics:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-UHNPN2J1QzFKWG8&usp…
...so we are ready to bring this whole thing down to the stairs next week!
And then some findings: both 2311 has leaked their fluids and roof has leaked over 1443 (
= rust). All rubber parts (like flat cabling bounds) are like potato chips. Doors and side
panels need new paint. CPU's ALD manuals are long gone, only ALD which we found was
for 1443.
But something good too: it seems 1800 99.90% intact (However, there have been visited some
"guest stars" in last 30 years, so something can be taken there as souviner or
some parts can be removed and put back to wrong places). Also some other nice findings
were IO tester inside of 2841 and "Heili's" framed naming testinomy from
1971! :D
More coming later!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:57:44 +0200
I don't need the manual, just noticed it on
the pictures.
Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to
find today.
Ok, I understood you wrong. But I'll pick up everything what is
related anything anything old computers! I'll make later catalog of this library,
maybe there is something useful for someone.
Looking forward to hear more about your efforts
moving the machine
from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work
again.
Of course, more updates comes later when project goes further!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 17:05:19 +0100
> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> From: quapla at xs4all.nl
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
> Hello Johannes.
>
I don't need the manual, just noticed it on
the pictures.
Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to
find today.
>
Looking forward to hear more about your efforts
moving the machine
from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work
again.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed
>
>
> >> I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of some sort on top of
> >> a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software
> >> was available on IBM under MVS/VM. It could either be version 4.1.x
> >> or version 5.0.x. If you come across that pack and it still works,
> >> then you have access to an old and most likely working version of
> >> a RDBMS. In that case, give me a shout and I could help you though
> >> some command and some info to put it in action.
> >>
> > Hi Ed! I'm sure we get it for you ;) ...I have to just book everything
> > what we carry out there, I think we have no problem to get it for you
> > (shared joy is best joy :)
> >
> > But I can't find anything else Oracle stuff on the pics than Oracle's
> > Server 7 pack over 1442 card read/punch (that greyish box)..? Did you ment
> > that?
> >
> >
> > - Johannes ThelenFinland
> > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
> > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com
> >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> >> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> >> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello everybody!
> >>
> >> It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow
> >> they made that stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who
> >> would do something like this big/crazy project even they would want, it
> >> is question of time/space/money, but mostly will and too far gone old
> >> computer obsession :D
> >>
> >> By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said
"that
> >> is not that big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with,
maybe she
> >> has some IBM Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything
> >> :D
> >>
> >> One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish
girl's
> >> name, usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It
can
> >> be named later by workers, I think it probably had no name originally.
> >> However, even it have almost pink dress, I would not called couple tons
> >> weighted monster as "girl", there could better expressions for it
;)
> >> ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure!
> >>
> >> Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on
> >> real life!) and it seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily.
> >> I hope I can done whole thing under three days nice and clean, without
> >> breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors)
> >>
> >>
> >> I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get
> >> trucks, safety equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready
> >> to go! Also I'm taking with me welding equipment and wood working
stuff,
> >> so we can make backup plan on the scene if needed.
> >>
> >> Any ideas or questions are welcome!
> >>
> >> Ps. Happy weekend for everyone!
> >>
> >>
> >> - Johannes ThelenFinland
> >> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
> >> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400
> >> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> >> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com
> >> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> >> >
> >> > That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Will
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at
gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project!
> >> > >
> >> > > m
> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM"
> >> <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> >> > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
> >> > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM
> >> > >
> >> > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >> Wow.....
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On
Behalf Of
> >> > >>> Johannes Thelen
> >> > >>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03
> >> > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
> >> > >>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm
little bit
> >> exhausted...)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> and we
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the
stash! I
> >> think
> >> > >>> I
> >> > >>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very
excited
> >> this
> >> > >>
> >> > >> project
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small
items today,
> >> but it
> >> > >>
> >> > >> was
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I
have
> >> good,
> >> > >>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the
bad news
> >> first: it
> >> > >>
> >> > >> seems
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the
pics.
> >> That
> >> > >>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been
picked out
> >> for it...
> >> > >>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every
freaking place!
> >> > >>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986,
longer as
> >> I
> >> > >>
> >> > >> excepted.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse
had used as
> >> > >>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every
where! Just
> >> quick
> >> > >>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And
also it is
> >> still
> >> > >>
> >> > >> fully
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around
and almost
> >> all
> >> > >>
> >> > >> stuff
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> what is know used back then, is still there (except
Tektronix
> >> displays,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> GRRR!).
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> ****
> >> > >>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats
really only
> >> > >>> option,
> >> > >>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I
have to
> >> make
> >> > >>
> >> > >> sleigh of
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set
is lowered
> >> on
> >> > >>
> >> > >> stairs
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would)
work!
> >> > >>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep!
> >> > >>> Oh, the pictures:
> >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
> >> > >>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D
Thaaaaanks!
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> - Johannes ThelenFinland
> >> > >>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
> >> > >>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some
help)
> >> > >>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net
> >> > >>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400
> >> > >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> >> > >>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson >
>
> >> <elson at pico-systems.com>
> >> > >>> wrote:
> >> > >>> > >
> >> > >>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
> >> > >>> > >>
> >> > >>> > >>
> >> > >>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >> > >>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was
> >>> indeed
> >> hydraulic!
> >> > >>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive
> >> 2314 was
> >> hydraulic,
> >> > >>> > >> and on
> >> > >>
> >> > >> night
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and
took it out,
> >> but the
> >> > >>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack
or
> >> actuators
> >> > >>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all
the packs
> >> and
> >> > >>
> >> > >> drives.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> > >>
> >> > >>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think
> > we also had a
> >> oil
> >> > >>> > > spraying
> >> > >>
> >> > >> event
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at
Washington
> >> > >>
> >> > >> University,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before
they got
> >> all
> >> > >>> the
> >> > >>> packs unloaded.
> >> > >>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected
> > if the
> >> computer room
> >> > >>> > > is
> >> > >>
> >> > >> occupied,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by
the A/C
> >> system.
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of >
1311s, which are
> >> similar
> >> > >>> > to
> >> > >>
> >> > >> the
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service
tech
> >> replaced
> >> > >>
> >> > >> the
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl
alcohol
> >> from
> >> > >>> the
> >> > >>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to
clean the oil
> >> from
> >> > >>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs
and heads
> >> in
> >> > >>
> >> > >> those
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to
try that with
> >> anything
> >> > >>
> >> > >> much
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or
packs,
> >> you
> >> > >>> might
> >> > >>> give that technique a try.
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>> > paul
> >> > >>> >
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
>
21 Mar
21 Mar
12:58 p.m.
On 21/03/15 19:39, Jon Elson wrote:
I got away with it, but
the Model 30 was only 10 (or fewer) years out of
service. By defeating interlocks it's probably possible to get a 2311 to
spin up without a pack and have it load the heads (with something soft
between them!) to check head loading and cylinder actuation. I'm not
sure what diagnostic facilities exist for the 1800, but the 2841
controller had microcode routines to manually test drives.
On 03/21/2015 01:47 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
Yes,
hydraulic actuator. Assuming it hasn't run for a long time then
flushing and replacing the hydraulic fluid would be necessary.
Thanks Jon for tips!
No, that is not option, I mean 2311 is have to get back to life ;) I
think use ultrasonic or carbon ice cleaning for 2311 and disk packs.
Both are quire gentle cleaning methods.
You have to be very careful with anything
that requires temperature
extremes. Can anybody verify the 2311 uses the hydraulic head
positioner? If the oxide coating of the packs has deteriorated, which
I think is quite possible, then the disks will not be usable. Anybody
else have experience with 14" disk packs from 40" years ago?
The other problem is this machine uses SLT. That was never a
super-reliable technology. They start with 1/2" square ceramic
substrates, and fire thin film resistors onto them, then print and
fire thick film wiring. Then they use bump-bonded discrete
transistors and diodes, and solder these by bump bonds to the wiring,
and add leads. Then, because the transistors and diodes are not
well-passivated, they smear silicone goop over it and epoxy on the
die-drawn aluminum covers. These are not totally hermetic, and oxygen
gets inside and slowly deteriorates the semiconductor devices. They
also had some problems with the solder joints to them developing cracks.
The plus
side is that you can pretty well replace a module with a few
transistors/diodes/resistors, if you have the manual that shows you what
is inside each one. Also, the same SLT card will be used in many places
so it's easy to swap them around. For the Model 30 there was a manual
that showed where each card was used, which facilitated this swapping.
Of course there were odd cards that only appeared once or twice.
So, the likelihood of the CPU actually working after FORTY years of
storage is pretty small. There are, of course, no replacements for
SLT modules, as IBM stopped making them in the late 1960's! It was a
form of diode-transistor logic, and not terribly dense. A single
flip-flop would not fit in one SLT module, it took at least 2, and the
usual scheme was to integrate some steering gates with it and ended up
with about 4 modules to implement the typical register bit. They
didn't use what we think of today as a FF, they used D latches, as it
was simpler to implement, but required several clock phases. One
clock phase to latch input data to the ALU, wait for the ALU to
settle, then a pulse to latch the result out of the ALU.
The power supplies would
be the first thing to work on - they'll be
switchers and have the potential to make a very large bang.
I like to
dump core and all disc packs for future uses ( = make
original configuration).
I wouldn't worry about what is left in core, it would
be interesting,
but you might have to do a lot of testing and repair before enough of
the machine is working to read it out.
Be very careful with the disk drives. If you even get a scratch on
the heads, you will not be able to replace them. Also, if anything at
all happens to the heads, you will need an alignment pack to realign
any replaced heads. Do you have ANY experience with old-school
mainframe equipment? If you think you will just dust this thing off,
mount the disk packs and fire it up, you are quite crazy!
Jon
Lawrence
--
Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360
3:21 p.m.
On 03/21/2015 02:58 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote:
The plus side is that you can pretty well replace a module
with a few transistors/diodes/resistors, if you have the
manual that shows you what is inside each one. Also, the
same SLT card will be used in many places so it's easy to
swap them around. For the Model 30 there was a manual that
showed where each card was used, which facilitated this
swapping. Of course there were odd cards that only
appeared once or twice. Yes, this is true, and I was pretty amazed at your ability
to fix the 360/30 you had. But, time has been continuously
taking its toll. On the other hand, I was amazed to see on
Wikipedia that 4 1800's were still running in 2010. There
were no SLT parts available after sometime around 1980, and
IBM was supposed to get as much stuff back so they could
support the FAA's 9020 computers, which were slightly
modified 360/50's and /65's. I'm pretty amazed they could
keep those 1800's running for an additional 30 years. Maybe
they were a lot more reliable than I thought, from my 360
experience.
I don't know. The power system in the 360's was different.
They used a "converter-inverter" that changed mains power to
DC, than inverted it to single-phase 120 V, 2500 Hz sine
wave. This was fed to remarkably small linear
transformer/rectifier/regulator modules. The downfall of
this was there was little energy storage for momentary line
fluctuations, so any tiny blip on the mains caused a system
crash.
The 1800 may have been designed differently to work in a
known-bad power environment. it seems to have some quite
large bulk supplies of relatively low power output, each.
There is a mention in the FE manual about making sure the
machine has the right 50 Hz or 60 Hz transformers. I
believe the 360s only needed to have one card swapped in the
converter-inverter to set up the SCR preregulator timing for
the right frequency. So, anyway, it is not clear the power
supplies are of the switching type. but, in any case, they
need to be checked before power is applied, or the filter
caps could pop.
Yup, I think you were VERY lucky, too! It was not hard to
make a big mess with the old 14" disk drives, the heads were
very easy to scratch.
Jon
On 21/03/15 19:39, Jon Elson wrote:
I think it is going to need more tender loving care that
that! It is now over 40 year old. Seals and hoses will
have dried out and become brittle.
On 03/21/2015 01:47 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
Yes, hydraulic
actuator. Assuming it hasn't run for a long
time then flushing and replacing the hydraulic fluid would
be necessary. Thanks Jon for tips!
No, that is not option, I mean 2311 is have to get back
to life ;) I think use ultrasonic or carbon ice
cleaning for 2311 and disk packs. Both are quire gentle
cleaning methods.
You have to be very careful with anything that requires
temperature extremes. Can anybody verify the 2311 uses
the hydraulic head positioner? If the oxide coating of
the packs has deteriorated, which I think is quite
possible, then the disks will not be usable. Anybody else
have experience with 14" disk packs from 40" years ago?
So, the likelihood of the CPU actually working after
FORTY years of storage is pretty small. There are, of
course, no replacements for SLT modules, as IBM stopped
making them in the late 1960's! It was a form of
diode-transistor logic, and not terribly dense. A single
flip-flop would not fit in one SLT module, it took at
least 2, and the usual scheme was to integrate some
steering gates with it and ended up with about 4 modules
to implement the typical register bit. They didn't use
what we think of today as a FF, they used D latches, as
it was simpler to implement, but required several clock
phases. One clock phase to latch input data to the ALU,
wait for the ALU to settle, then a pulse to latch the
result out of the ALU.
The power supplies would be the first thing to work on -
they'll be switchers and have the potential to make a very
large bang. >> I like to dump core and all disc packs for
future uses
>> ( = make original configuration).
I wouldn't
worry about what is left in core, it would be
interesting, but you might have to do a lot of testing
and repair before enough of the machine is working to
read it out.
Be very careful with the disk drives. If you even get a
scratch on the heads, you will not be able to replace
them. Also, if anything at all happens to the heads, you
will need an alignment pack to realign any replaced
heads. Do you have ANY experience with old-school
mainframe equipment? If you think you will just dust
this thing off, mount the disk packs and fire it up, you
are quite crazy!
I got away with it, but the Model 30 was only 10 (or
fewer) years out of service. By defeating interlocks it's
probably possible to get a 2311 to spin up without a pack
and have it load the heads (with something soft between
them!) to check head loading and cylinder actuation. I'm
not sure what diagnostic facilities exist for the 1800,
but the 2841 controller had microcode routines to manually
test drives.
7:20 p.m.
Can anybody verify the 2311 uses the hydraulic head
positioner?
Yes, 2311 is hydraulic. 2311s, apart from the head of string, are also
almost completely empty, and could be moved down a stair by one guy
with a two-wheeler.
There are, of course, no replacements for SLT modules,
as
IBM stopped making them in the late 1960's!
Most SLT is remarkably easy to find. I think there has been a steady
stream of SLT cards on EBay continuously for the past ten years!
Fairly complete data for the standard SLT system has also been
available for some time. The only SLT that would probably be a bear to
find is the high speed grade.
--
Will
7:08 p.m.
to get this to Assembly computer fair's demo
competition at Helsinki, so energy drink addicted CS player's some real iron running
realtime vector graphics :D (...it should be possible what I have calculated, at least
streaming points from hard drive).Of course I need some kind of vector display (there is
probably Tektronics vector terminals, but those are not suitable for realtime graphics),
so if anyone spare 2250, please info (I'm sure there is no one ;) otherwise I have to
make one..
I do not think many 1800s had vector displays using a 2250, but there
was an option for a raster display using a piece of crap black and
white TV (although I am not sure how well that would work in PAL/SECAM
land).
--
Will
3542
days inactive
3564
days old
26 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
cctech＠ljw.me.uk -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
johannesthelen＠hotmail.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
mhs.stein＠gmail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
quapla＠xs4all.nl -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com