23 Oct
2015
23 Oct
'15
12:59 p.m.
From: Rod Smallwood
perhaps we can pool our knowledge and and allocate
getting different
parts sourced/made to different people.
Makes sense to me.
2. Lever keys (pdp8 type and PDP11 type )
For the PDP-11, there are three kinds of plastic toggle/actuator: one like the
ones used on the mid-age PDP-8's, used on the 11/20; one sui generis one used
on the 11/05; one for the 11/40/45/70. The latter two use the toggle switch
(the one we've just been discussing); the 11/20 one uses a slide switch.
ISTR that there's a CAD drawing for the first kind, and maybe the third too.
I shall now go and hide behind my six foot / nineteen
inch main rack in
case of heavy flack
No, makes sense (to me, at least).
Noel
PS: I can see where this is going: first we're already making parts like front
panels; we're about to start making/selling new cards (I'm thinking MEM-11,
etc, here); soon someone will start reproducing some of the older boards that
are now rare, and command high prices (my suggestion for the first - the M792
diode ROM board); and then it will be cabinets like the H960 (ditto); and then
finally, somewhere down the line, you'll be able to buy a complete,
brand-spanking-new PDP-8 or PDP-11. Just like the vintage steam engine scene
in the UK; first they started making new parts to repair the old ones, and now
there are several groups building entire new engines entirely out of new
parts.
23 Oct
23 Oct
1:33 p.m.
Hi Noel
Your ps comments are very perceptive.
I have no doubt that people out there are gathering TTL even as we speak.
The one I always call to mind is the guys who built themselves flight
simulators
out of genuine parts.
I've seen replica cars of all kinds.
Boats yes
Steam Engines are good but one group built a brand new railway engine
from 1930's drawings.
I think its got to the stage where if we can cooperate the result will
be more than the sum of the parts.
There is already a spirit of mutual assistance amongst the list members.
Working towards a common goal transcends any other personal aversions
people may have.
As you know I'm collecting front panel designs and recreating the
original artwork.
Apart from a few mechanical details in print sets I have not seen any
detail panel drawings anywhere.
Photos yes also line drawings in handbooks. All too small to be of much use.
Oh well I'm getting there but it can be slow. (interesting all the same)
Regards
Rod
On 23/10/15 17:59, Noel Chiappa wrote:
From: Rod
Smallwood
perhaps we can pool our knowledge and and
allocate getting different
parts sourced/made to different people.
Makes sense to me.
2. Lever keys (pdp8 type and PDP11 type )
For the PDP-11, there are three kinds of plastic toggle/actuator: one like the
ones used on the mid-age PDP-8's, used on the 11/20; one sui generis one used
on the 11/05; one for the 11/40/45/70. The latter two use the toggle switch
(the one we've just been discussing); the 11/20 one uses a slide switch.
ISTR that there's a CAD drawing for the first kind, and maybe the third too.
I shall now go and hide behind my six foot /
nineteen inch main rack in
case of heavy flack
No, makes sense (to me, at least).
Noel
PS: I can see where this is going: first we're already making parts like front
panels; we're about to start making/selling new cards (I'm thinking MEM-11,
etc, here); soon someone will start reproducing some of the older boards that
are now rare, and command high prices (my suggestion for the first - the M792
diode ROM board); and then it will be cabinets like the H960 (ditto); and then
finally, somewhere down the line, you'll be able to buy a complete,
brand-spanking-new PDP-8 or PDP-11. Just like the vintage steam engine scene
in the UK; first they started making new parts to repair the old ones, and now
there are several groups building entire new engines entirely out of new
parts. 
2:48 p.m.
On 10/23/2015 11:33 AM, rod wrote:
Hi Noel
Your ps comments are very perceptive.
I have no doubt that people out there are gathering TTL even as we speak.
Hides the 74LSxx and solder ... pulls out some knitting.
If they still had edge connectors, 74LS382's and the old DOS pcb
software I might consider it rather than a fpga.
The one I always call to mind is the guys who built
themselves flight
simulators
out of genuine parts.
I've seen replica cars of all kinds.
Boats yes
Steam Engines are good but one group built a brand new railway engine
from 1930's drawings.
It does seem mechanical stuff is dieing art.
I think what we need to do is get those who have big iron
make a list of spares needed and group buy the parts while they
still can be found. 7474's can be found but 74H74's?
Ben.
2:57 p.m.
On Oct 23, 2015, at 2:48 PM, ben <bfranchuk at
jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
...
It does seem mechanical stuff is dieing art.
I don't know about that. It's a different crows than the one that hangs out here,
for the most part. But mechanical innovation is alive and well (consider Boberg for
example). And there's 3d printing. And there definitely are people who can use
machine tools to build amazing stuff. Give them a few pieces of steel or brass and a
bunch of time, and they'll hand you a fully finished model airplane engine, for
example.
I have not just old computers but an old lathe, too. Not that I'm much good with it,
but I know a few of the basics...
paul
4:49 p.m.
On 10/23/2015 01:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
Yes, there is an open-source project that provides a CNC
machine control for mill, lathes, hexapods and robots. That
is LinuxCNC. It started as a NIST project to see what was so
complicated in a CNC control, but then moved out of NIST and
has been extended greatly. it is also now being used for 3D
printers.
I sell some hardware for motion control based on this
software, and have sold over 300 controller-interfaces.
Some other outfits likely have sold a lot more than that.
Most of this is going into hobby shops and small businesses
that maybe grew out of a hobby shop.
Also, I am a member of an Atlas lathe group and the Sheldon
lathe group, they both have a fairly large membership. The
Atlas lathe group is closing in on 6000 members!
Jon
On Oct 23,
2015, at 2:48 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
...
It does seem mechanical stuff is dieing art.
I don't know about that.
5:32 p.m.
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
On 10/23/2015 01:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
Yes, there is an open-source project that provides a CNC machine control for
mill, lathes, hexapods and robots. That is LinuxCNC. It started as a NIST
project to see what was so complicated in a CNC control, but then moved out
of NIST and has been extended greatly. it is also now being used for 3D
printers.
I sell some hardware for motion control based on this software, and have sold
over 300 controller-interfaces.
A popular one seems to be using MachineKit on a Beagle Bone Black....
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
On Oct
23, 2015, at 2:48 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
...
It does seem mechanical stuff is dieing art.
I don't know about that.
8:06 p.m.
On 10/23/2015 04:32 PM, geneb wrote:
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
Yes, my latest product is the CRAMPS board for machinekit
and BBB.
Jon
I sell some hardware for motion control based on this
software, and have sold over 300 controller-interfaces.
A popular one seems to be using MachineKit on a Beagle
Bone Black....
24 Oct
24 Oct
9:01 p.m.
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
On 10/23/2015 04:32 PM, geneb wrote:
I wouldn't mind finding step-by-step instructions on how to refit a 2000
model year MaxNC 10 open loop mill. The controller it has now is parallel
port based and the control software is DOS only.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
Yes, my latest product is the CRAMPS board for machinekit and BBB.
I sell some hardware for motion control based on this software, and have
sold over 300 controller-interfaces.
A popular one seems to be using MachineKit on a Beagle Bone Black....
9:57 p.m.
On 10/24/2015 08:01 PM, geneb wrote:
I wouldn't mind finding step-by-step instructions on how
to refit a 2000 model year MaxNC 10 open loop mill. The
controller it has now is parallel port based and the
control software is DOS only.
Well, this is a stepper-driven machine? Are the stepper
drives in good condition, and are they good units?
Stepper drives have come a long way since 2000. Gecko
stepper drives are pretty amazing.
You can run stepper drivers from the parallel port, but the
performance may be less that optimum. I make a board that
generates steps in hardware that gives more accurate step
timing at higher speeds, and also allows closed-loop
operation if you fit encoders to the machine. This is all
supported by the LinuxCNC program, which is pretty
fantastic. I use it here in my shop to run a Bridgeport
mill with my own servo drives. I also have a desktop mill
that I built mostly for taking to shows that uses my
controllers and drives.
You can check out the LinuxCNC.org web site, and see what
others are doing in the retrofit area.
Jon
23 Oct
23 Oct
3:15 p.m.
I should also add.... if people are talking about reproducing DEC switch
handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for my DG gear so
whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful there.
J
3:27 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I should also add.... if people are talking about
reproducing DEC switch
handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for my DG gear so
whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful there.
Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles?
(fragile pivots that break off)
I'd say the first step is what Vince Slyngstad has done with several
DEC handles - capture an accurate shape in some flavor of CAD. From
there, Shapeways or an SLA printer should make a nice, functional
replacement. SLA will produce brittle but visually beautiful parts.
SLS (Shapeways) will produce stronger parts but with a matte finish -
functionally nice, but palpably different. Perhaps a couple coats of
paint would smooth that over.
-ethan
3:29 p.m.
On 10/23/15 12:27, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch
handles?
(fragile pivots that break off)
Only the 16-bit Eclipse family, and they're really not that fragile --
you sort of have to work to break them.
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"
3:42 p.m.
On 10/23/2015 1:29 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote:
On 10/23/15 12:27, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Bring in the Gorillas. :)
Other than bootstrapping, switches tend to sit idle.
Ben.
Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC
switch handles?
(fragile pivots that break off)
Only the 16-bit Eclipse family, and they're really not that fragile --
you sort of have to work to break them.
3:56 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:42 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
Bring in the Gorillas. :)
Other than bootstrapping, switches tend to sit idle.
Yeah... For my switchless 11/70 PCB, I'm happy to buy $5 switches, but
if I can't find them that cheaply, I'm not worried about a replacement
method of attachment that might not be as robust as the original
stainless steel punched mounting bar. The LEDs are nice and useful,
but I'm not going to be debugging software from front panel switches.
They just aren't going to get that much use.
OTOH, I've spent a number of hours debugging a hardware fault with a
PDP-8/L... I've toggled in a wad of 2-3-word test programs as I snoop
and poke at signals. I'm far less likely to be doing component-level
debugging on an 11/70.
-ethan
4:02 p.m.
Ben wrote...
----
Bring in the Gorillas. :)
Other than bootstrapping, switches tend to sit idle.
----
Guess it's all what you're doing. I use the front panels *A LOT* on all my
machines. A completely missing switchcover, or a broken switch, would be far more than
just an inconvenience to me at least.
J
3:55 p.m.
Ethan wrote...
Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch
handles?
(fragile pivots that break off)
To which Christian replied...
----
Only the 16-bit Eclipse family, and they're really not that fragile -- you sort of
have to work to break them.
----
Ethan - Yes. They have the exact same "pins" on each side of the plastic that
break off pretty easily. I believe the DG handles on the nova 3, and Eclipse S/130 (and
similar models) are virtually identical to some DEC switch handle. I bet they would fit on
the identical CK switches we've been discussing... I know it's not the /40 style
nor the 8 style. I'll do some digging.
I disagree with Christian on one point... those side pins are *every bit* as fragile as
the dec ones.
Pictures of the DG S/130 switches (which are the same as the DG S/200 switches, and same
as the Nova 3 {except color}) are at:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/albums/72157657915020163
J
3:59 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Ethan wrote...
Right/
Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC
switch handles?
(fragile pivots that break off)
Ethan - Yes. They have the exact same "pins" on each side of the plastic that
break off pretty easily I believe the DG handles on the nova 3, and Eclipse
S/130 (and similar models) are virtually identical to some DEC switch handle.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at
N02/albums/72157657915020163
Looking at your picture, I'd say that is not identical to any DEC
switch handle I know of. The C&K switches in that photo _are_
identical to the 11/70 switch bodies (and mounting frame) we've been
discussing, but not the plastic actuator past the pivots.
I bet they would fit on the identical CK switches
we've been discussing... I know it's not the /40 style nor the 8 style. I'll
do some digging.
Yes. Those handles would fit the newer DEC switches (not the PDP-8/L
or PDP-8/i era stuff with slide switches entirely unlike C&K "red"
switch bodies).
-ethan
4:05 p.m.
Ethan wrote...
----
Looking at your picture, I'd say that is not identical to any DEC switch handle I know
of.
----
Yeah, I couldn't remember what system it was... but when I first took apart a DG front
panel and looked at the plastic switch covers, I *KNOW* I remember that I had worked on
some other brand of machine that had identical (or at least very close) switches. I just
can't remember which one for sure. Maybe it was something other than dec....
J
4:07 p.m.
On 10/23/15 13:05, Jay West wrote:
Yeah, I couldn't remember what system it was...
but when I first took
apart a DG front panel and looked at the plastic switch covers, I
*KNOW* I remember that I had worked on some other brand of machine
that had identical (or at least very close) switches. I just can't
remember which one for sure. Maybe it was something other than
dec....
The DCC Nova clones have a very similar paddle design; those I *have*
broken...
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"
4:04 p.m.
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On 10/23/15 12:55, Jay West wrote:
I disagree with Christian on one point... those side
pins are
*every bit* as fragile as the dec ones.
Maybe it's an aging thing? In the space of a decade with S/130s,
S/200s, S/230s, C330s and an honest-to-%deity M/600 I never saw a
switch break -- save when someone borked it when physically moving a
machine. My Nova 3s are still limping along on what I suspect are the
same switches that they had when they left the factory (and boy are
they ugly -- who thought up the Nova 3 color scheme?)
The funny thing is that I *really* prefer the switches on the
Nova/Nova 8xx/Nova 12xx family -- when you needed to clear the switch
register you could just swipe left to right with the back of your
index finger. Didn't take long to learn not to do that with the
switches on the Eclipses :P
- --
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"
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3:32 p.m.
On the Vintage Computer Forums some one has produced replacement keys for his TV
Typewriter using rubber moulds and casting resin. It looks shiny and dyes are
available...
... but you might have to machine the hole in the end for the shaft to go into..
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan
Dicks
Sent: 23 October 2015 20:27
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Retro Reproduction.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I should also add.... if people are talking about
reproducing DEC
switch handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for
my DG gear so whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful
there.
Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles?
(fragile pivots that break off)
I'd say the first step is what Vince Slyngstad has done with several DEC
handles - capture an accurate shape in some flavor of CAD. From there,
Shapeways or an SLA printer should make a nice, functional replacement.
SLA will produce brittle but visually beautiful parts.
SLS (Shapeways) will produce stronger parts but with a matte finish -
functionally nice, but palpably different. Perhaps a couple coats of paint
would smooth that over.
-ethan 
3:56 p.m.
From: Ethan Dicks: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:27 PM
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Jay West <jwest at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
In spades -- the pivot area seems much more fragile than the DEC
ones. In addition, the pivot heads seem to have been spread with
some sort of heat process, so it is virtually impossible to remove
the handle without breaking off the pivots.
I should also add.... if people are talking about
reproducing DEC switch
handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for my DG gear so
whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful there.
Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles?
(fragile pivots that break off) I'd say the first step is what Vince Slyngstad has
done with several
DEC handles - capture an accurate shape in some flavor of CAD. From
I started a Nova 3 handle, but it isn't quite right yet.
there, Shapeways or an SLA printer should make a nice,
functional
replacement. SLA will produce brittle but visually beautiful parts.
SLS (Shapeways) will produce stronger parts but with a matte finish -
functionally nice, but palpably different. Perhaps a couple coats of
paint would smooth that over.
Paint does seem to help, adding gloss to the finish. Even urethane
floor wax will gloss them up some.
Vince
4:14 p.m.
Vince wrote...
-----
In addition, the pivot heads seem to have been spread with some sort of heat process, so
it is virtually impossible to remove the handle without breaking off the pivots.
-----
I should point out... so far I've had about six or eight switch covers on various
eclipse machines that were broken. In every single case, it wasn't the pivot
"pin" itself that was broken. Rather, the whole pin and a millimeter or so of
the surrounding area that the pin is attached to is what breaks off. Basically, the tip of
the lobe that has the pin on it.
Vince - what I have had good success with is releasing one side (pin out of the head), and
while holding it very slightly angled using an electronics pick (very much like a dental
pick, but it doesn't get wide just past the tip) and with that I can easily reach
in-between the switches to release the other side.
J
4:28 p.m.
From: Jay West: Friday, October 23, 2015 1:14 PM
Vince wrote...
-----
In addition, the pivot heads seem to have been spread with some sort of heat
process, so it is virtually impossible to remove the handle without breaking
off the pivots.
-----
I should point out... so far I've had about six or eight switch covers on
various eclipse machines that were broken. In every single case, it wasn't the
pivot "pin" itself that was broken. Rather, the whole pin and a millimeter or
so of the surrounding area that the pin is attached to is what breaks off.
Basically, the tip of the lobe that has the pin on it.
Yes. Those are ridiculously thin. The pivot pins themselves aren't the
problem, and are actually quite comparable to the DEC ones. But there's
just no strength (or flexibility, which would also work) in those lobes.
Vince - what I have had good success with is releasing
one side (pin out of
the head), and while holding it very slightly angled using an electronics pick
(very much like a dental pick, but it doesn't get wide just past the tip) and
with that I can easily reach in-between the switches to release the other
side.
That definitely helps, but the "spread" effect of the top of the pin
being wider, doesn't. And the aged brittle plastic of the hinge
pin supports makes complete success unlikely. Fortunately, a good
bit of the support is actually provided by the bat. Even on the
ones with the pivots completely toast, you might not notice
unless you tried to pull the handle toward you (not recommended).
Vince
3167
days inactive
3169
days old
23 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
chris＠mainecoon.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
rodsmallwood52＠btinternet.com -
v.slyngstad＠frontier.com