5 Mar
2005
5 Mar
'05
5:26 a.m.
---------------Original Message:
From: Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com>
Subject: RE: List etiquette (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 15)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Mike, I like you, but your method of replying to
messages leaves a LOT to
be desired. You intermingled my message with your replies.
Use some
software with a quoting feature, eh?
-----------------------------------
My apologies; I just changed ISPs and, along with that, my email SW.
Looks OK at my end, but somewhere along the way the indentation
got stripped out.
I don't consider my response either rude or
condescending.
-------------------------------------
Well, the tone of your posts has itself been the subject of several OT
threads, but we love ya anyway.
====================================================
The rest of my reply to Sellam is off-list, except for:
I think my main point is that, as historians, museum curators, technical
resource people etc., maybe we have a special responsibity to present
a friendly, helpful and more or less mature attitude to the outside world,
*especially* in contrast to some of the other lists around.
Sorry if the discussion's moved on in the meanwhile; that's the trouble with
being on the digest list.
mike
5 Mar
5 Mar
11:41 a.m.
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, M H Stein wrote:
I realize my tone at times can be gruff or even seem gruff, and in this
case the latter was probably the case even if I'm not willing to admit to
the former. At any rate, Jim has been with us long enough to know that
this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading
ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim
view to these sorts of questions. If Jim was a newbie then I certainly
would have been more humane in my reply. But he's been subscribed for at
least half a year. He knows the deal.
Why? As was already mentioned, it's a slippery slope. You let one
question through, OK. But then Cornelius figures since Aloysius was
able to ask a generic PC support question, and it got answered, why
shouldn't he? So Cornelius asks and he receives. Next thing you know,
Hortense needs to know how to do some mundane PC maintenance thing that
also has nothing to do with vintage computing and poses the question,
etc., etc., and before you know it we are zipping down the mountainside at
70MPH towards a mailing list that has no former resemblance to its title,
the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list. THERE IS NOTHING CLASSIC ABOUT MAKING
WINDOWS XP RUN ON YOUR LAPTOP AND NOR WILL IT SUBJECTIVELY BE FOR DOZENS
OF YEARS!
Now, you may be thinking, "Oh, Sellam. You are so dramatic. This won't
happen." To which I would reply, you're damn right, because I'm not going
to let it happen.
In thinking about it, the split between CCTALK and CCTECH, and the
discussions on why it came about, can be confusing to anyone who hasn't
been here since the beginning and understands the historical reasons
behind the split. I can see how people can become confused by the
"Off-topic/On-topic" dual nature of the split list. I think we need to
make it a bit more clear that even though it's subtitled "On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts", this does not give carte blanche to talk about whatever
one feels. What it means is:
If you ONLY want to discuss vintage computing and you ONLY want to read
postings of that nature, you subscribe to CCTECH, which only presents
moderated messages. If you don't mind the occasional off-topic banter
(and there is plenty) and do appreciate a more relaxed conversational
forum, then you can subscribe to CCTALK where posts are not moderated.
HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase
"off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are
allowed to go off-topic! In the very least, you should not expect it to
be a shield against the flamage that will be blasted your way when you
post a blatantly off-topic message. All it means is that the OCCASIONAL
off-topic message is tolerated because those joining this list have agreed
to be dispositioned towards them thusly (and only then to a LIMITED
extent!), but they are still NOT ALLOWED.
Throw that in the FAQ and make every newbie read it and agree to it.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
I don't
consider my response either rude or condescending.
-------------------------------------
Well, the tone of your posts has itself been the subject of several OT
threads, but we love ya anyway.
====================================================
The rest of my reply to Sellam is off-list, except for:
I think my main point is that, as historians, museum curators, technical
resource people etc., maybe we have a special responsibity to present
a friendly, helpful and more or less mature attitude to the outside world,
*especially* in contrast to some of the other lists around. 
12:18 p.m.
At 10:41 AM 3/5/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
etc., etc., and before you know it we are zipping down
the mountainside at
70MPH towards a mailing list that has no former resemblance to its title,
the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list. THERE IS NOTHING CLASSIC ABOUT MAKING
WINDOWS XP RUN ON YOUR LAPTOP AND NOR WILL IT SUBJECTIVELY BE FOR DOZENS
OF YEARS!
Maybe there's a need for a "vintage Windows" mailing list. (And in
that magical wish-fulfillment aspect of the Web, I bet there's a dozen
sites like that.) I do think there is a need for ancient Windows
discussion. It doesn't need to be here, of course. It is hard to
reconstruct a working late-DOS, early Windows environment.
I can see how a little Windows discussion might take place here, though,
as people try to get emulators running under the Windows of the day,
as well as the gizmos that go along with it (like USB serial adapters, etc.)
- John
12:20 p.m.
Sellam wrote...
this is NOT a mailing list for general computer
discussions (and pleading
ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim
view to these sorts of questions.
Nor is it the place to discuss lockpicking, or Al
Gore's statements.
I can see how people can become confused by the
"Off-topic/On-topic" dual nature of the split list. I think we need to
make it a bit more clear that even though it's subtitled "On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts", this does not give carte blanche to talk about whatever
one feels.
I agree. I'd really like to get to rewriting the FAQ. But instead, I
was up
till 2:30am dealing with people who have crappy mail servers, and then
having to defend my desire not to have to muck with that.
HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived
that the phrase
"off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are
allowed to go off-topic! In the very least, you should not expect it to
be a shield against the flamage that will be blasted your way when you
post a blatantly off-topic message. All it means is that the OCCASIONAL
off-topic message is tolerated because those joining this list have agreed
to be dispositioned towards them thusly (and only then to a LIMITED
extent!), but they are still NOT ALLOWED.
Thanks Sellam. I've said this more
than a few times. Maybe people will
listen to you, they haven't to me..
Jay West
8:48 p.m.
Sellam wrote...
Although the lockpicking discussion hsa gone _way_ off-topic now, it
started off on-topic, as a question of how to get inside a DEC HSC70
(IIRC) if you didn't have the right key.
If that's off-topic, then so are discussions of, say, digitial
electronics.
-tony
this is NOT a mailing list for general computer
discussions (and pleading
ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim
view to these sorts of questions.
Nor is it the place to discuss lockpicking, or
Al Gore's statements.
10:34 p.m.
Tony wrote...
Although the lockpicking discussion hsa gone _way_
off-topic now, it
started off on-topic, as a question of how to get inside a DEC HSC70
(IIRC) if you didn't have the right key.
If that's off-topic, then so are discussions of, say, digitial
electronics.
I fully realize the lockpicking discussion started out on topic, that's why
I didn't jump on it. I don't recall jumping on it till it went way off
topic, as you noted that it did.
Jay
11:57 p.m.
New subject: The Solution (was: Re: List etiquette)
Jay West wrote:
As a list owner myself for the Software Collector's Mailing List (I too have
wrestled with mailman, so I feel Jay's pain), I think it's an unavoidable fact
that some threads will be off-topic no matter what people think, write, or do.
Charter/FAQ or not, there always have been and always will be off-topic
threads in any discussion forum, whether live or virtual. The most effective
way to combat this behavior is to ignore off-topic threads.
To wit: You say you want to stop cctalk/cctech from degenerating into a PC
support list? Then imagine what would have happened if the original message
had *simply been ignored and gone unanswered.* Same result (modern computer/OS
questions avoided), but without all the drama.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
If that's
off-topic, then so are discussions of, say, digitial
electronics.
I fully realize the lockpicking discussion started out on topic, that's
why I didn't jump on it. I don't recall jumping on it till it went way
off topic, as you noted that it did. 
12:26 p.m.
Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I asked to be unsubscribed.
But since I am still here, you wrote, and I quote,
"HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase
"off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are
allowed to go off-topic! "
Now that is double talk. What ever else could it mean!!! You must be
a politician by trade or a Lawyer.
Please unsubscribe me from this list. I was yelled at about my post
yet you yourself posted about using 8" drives on a PC...Horrors, a
PC...and right out of your own mouth. Doesnt that make you ashamed?
There have been post since on car maintenance and several other topics
that are totaly unrelated to computers of ANY kind.
I will take my North Star and Nova 1 and go elsewhere for my daily fix
on computers.
Please unsubscribe me from this list, I say again.
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:41:05 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival
<vcf at siconic.com> wrote:
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, M H Stein wrote:
I realize my tone at times can be gruff or even seem gruff, and in this
case the latter was probably the case even if I'm not willing to admit to
the former. At any rate, Jim has been with us long enough to know that
this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading
ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim
view to these sorts of questions. If Jim was a newbie then I certainly
would have been more humane in my reply. But he's been subscribed for at
least half a year. He knows the deal.
Why? As was already mentioned, it's a slippery slope. You let one
question through, OK. But then Cornelius figures since Aloysius was
able to ask a generic PC support question, and it got answered, why
shouldn't he? So Cornelius asks and he receives. Next thing you know,
Hortense needs to know how to do some mundane PC maintenance thing that
also has nothing to do with vintage computing and poses the question,
etc., etc., and before you know it we are zipping down the mountainside at
70MPH towards a mailing list that has no former resemblance to its title,
the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list. THERE IS NOTHING CLASSIC ABOUT MAKING
WINDOWS XP RUN ON YOUR LAPTOP AND NOR WILL IT SUBJECTIVELY BE FOR DOZENS
OF YEARS!
Now, you may be thinking, "Oh, Sellam. You are so dramatic. This won't
happen." To which I would reply, you're damn right, because I'm not going
to let it happen.
In thinking about it, the split between CCTALK and CCTECH, and the
discussions on why it came about, can be confusing to anyone who hasn't
been here since the beginning and understands the historical reasons
behind the split. I can see how people can become confused by the
"Off-topic/On-topic" dual nature of the split list. I think we need to
make it a bit more clear that even though it's subtitled "On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts", this does not give carte blanche to talk about whatever
one feels. What it means is:
If you ONLY want to discuss vintage computing and you ONLY want to read
postings of that nature, you subscribe to CCTECH, which only presents
moderated messages. If you don't mind the occasional off-topic banter
(and there is plenty) and do appreciate a more relaxed conversational
forum, then you can subscribe to CCTALK where posts are not moderated.
HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase
"off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are
allowed to go off-topic! In the very least, you should not expect it to
be a shield against the flamage that will be blasted your way when you
post a blatantly off-topic message. All it means is that the OCCASIONAL
off-topic message is tolerated because those joining this list have agreed
to be dispositioned towards them thusly (and only then to a LIMITED
extent!), but they are still NOT ALLOWED.
Throw that in the FAQ and make every newbie read it and agree to it.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
--
Jim Isbell
"If you are not living on the edge, well then,
you are just taking up too much space."
W5JAI
UltraVan #257
CAL - 27 #221
I
don't consider my response either rude or condescending.
-------------------------------------
Well, the tone of your posts has itself been the subject of several OT
threads, but we love ya anyway.
====================================================
The rest of my reply to Sellam is off-list, except for:
I think my main point is that, as historians, museum curators, technical
resource people etc., maybe we have a special responsibity to present
a friendly, helpful and more or less mature attitude to the outside world,
*especially* in contrast to some of the other lists around.
1:02 p.m.
Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I
asked to be
unsubscribed.
You asked me to do your work for you, when you are perfectly capable
of
unsubscribing yourself. Lazy.
I'll honor your request immediately, since you can't seem to do your own
work.
Now that is double talk. What ever else could it
mean!!! You must be
a politician by trade or a Lawyer.
No, you're imposing YOUR interpretation on
us, when we all have a pretty
good idea just what it means. I (and others) have said exactly what it means
and you're simply disagreeing, which I will defend your right to disagree.
But you will not be allowed to insist that everyone agree with your opinion.
The occasional off-topicness is acceptable, usually when it trails off from
an on-topic post. If it involves XP, you can't help but expect some grief.
Now if you asked about how to get PUTR running under XP, or how to hook up
8" floppy drives to XP for vintage software preservation, that's a different
story. If you can't see the difference, there's not much I can do to help.
Please unsubscribe me from this list. I was yelled at
about my post
yet you yourself posted about using 8" drives on a PC...Horrors, a
PC...and right out of your own mouth. Doesnt that make you ashamed?
There have been post since on car maintenance and several other topics
that are totaly unrelated to computers of ANY kind.
The post was on-topic because
it was about an 8" drive, and being able to
preserve old non-pc data. Very on-topic. The post about car maintenance was
tongue in cheek, and meant to illustrate a point but apparently the point
was lost on you.
I will take my North Star and Nova 1 and go elsewhere
for my daily fix
on computers.
Some quaint phrase about a swinging door comes to mind.
Please unsubscribe me from this list, I say again.
Since you can't seem to figure out how to either send an unsubscribe email
to the automated list software, or can't figure out how to type the list
management URL into your browser, I will oblige you myself.
Since you run a list for vintage (apparently microcomputer only) software, I
would suggest that you extend your list charter to include vintage hardware.
It'd be great to have like-minded people with you. 386 discussion here is
always welcome though, unless it's in a very uninteresting mainstream PC.
Questions about DOS are ok here too, particularly on old hardware. This all
falls under the definition of "classic".
Jay West
1:04 p.m.
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote:
Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I
asked to be unsubscribed.
But since I am still here, you wrote, and I quote,
"HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase
"off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are
allowed to go off-topic! "
Now that is double talk. What ever else could it mean!!! You must be
a politician by trade or a Lawyer.
Reading comprehension: it's not just a skill, it's a necessity.
Please unsubscribe me from this list. I was yelled at
about my post
Following instructions: it's not just a skill it's a necessity.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
1:10 p.m.
<FLAME>
Lets see, someone who cannot be bothered to go to classiccmp.org to
unsubscribe, or email the correct automated email address to be
unsubscribed....
to make it simple for you either go HERE
http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html
and un freaking subscribe yourself
or email cctalk-request at classiccmp.org with the single word unsubscribe in
the subject and the body and it will unsubscribe you. YOU recieved an
email when you subscribed telling you how to manage your list subscription,
YOU subscribed, I doubt that the list owner picked your email address out
of the blue and subscribed you, yet it is apparently impossible for you to
unsubscribe yourself?
The list owner has a lot more to do than to hold the hand of every member
of this list, YOU subscribed yourself, YOU should be smart enough to
unsubscribe yourself. Users like YOU are the reason I pulled the plug on
the 30+ mailing lists I -USED- to run, I didn't have time or energy to deal
with people who weren't bright enough to follow directions or save the
information they needed to manage their own subscriptions.
</Flame>
any response form jim isbell will be routed to /dev/null
At 09:26 AM 3/5/2005, you wrote:
Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I
asked to be
unsubscribed.
8 Mar
8 Mar
4:33 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" <jim.isbell at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: List etiquette
Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I
asked to be
unsubscribed.
But since I am still here, you wrote, and I quote,
"HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase
"off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are
allowed to go off-topic! "
Now that is double talk. What ever else could it mean!!! You must be
a politician by trade or a Lawyer.
Please unsubscribe me from this list. I was yelled at about my post
yet you yourself posted about using 8" drives on a PC...Horrors, a
PC...and right out of your own mouth. Doesnt that make you ashamed?
There have been post since on car maintenance and several other topics
that are totaly unrelated to computers of ANY kind.
I will take my North Star and Nova 1 and go elsewhere for my daily fix
on computers.
Please unsubscribe me from this list, I say again.
Get out the bell,book and candle someone.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 - Release Date: 08/03/05
11:31 p.m.
Geoffrey Thomas wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" <jim.isbell at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: List etiquette
I keep looking to see if it's September already.
Doc
Apparently I am still subscribed to this list
though I asked to be
unsubscribed.
But since I am still here, you wrote, and I
quote,
Please unsubscribe me from this list, I say again.
Get out the bell,book and candle someone. 
5 Mar
5 Mar
12:43 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
At any rate, Jim has been with us long enough to know
that
this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading
ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim
view to these sorts of questions. If Jim was a newbie then I certainly
would have been more humane in my reply. But he's been subscribed for at
least half a year. He knows the deal.
Slow down -- I am *NOT* the Jim who posted the original XP question. I came to
his defense, but I did not post the original question.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
1:04 p.m.
Sorry Jim, I didnt mean to cause YOU any trouble. I guess I will just
have to remain subbed so I can watch my back...vicious bunch here.
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:43:03 -0600, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote:
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
--
Jim Isbell
"If you are not living on the edge, well then,
you are just taking up too much space."
W5JAI
UltraVan #257
CAL - 27 #221
At any rate, Jim has been with us long enough to
know that
this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading
ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim
view to these sorts of questions. If Jim was a newbie then I certainly
would have been more humane in my reply. But he's been subscribed for at
least half a year. He knows the deal.
Slow down -- I am *NOT* the Jim who posted the original XP question. I came to
his defense, but I did not post the original question.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
1:09 p.m.
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote:
Sorry Jim, I didnt mean to cause YOU any trouble. I
guess I will just
have to remain subbed so I can watch my back...vicious bunch here.
Oh please.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
1:05 p.m.
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote:
Slow down -- I am *NOT* the Jim who posted the
original XP question. I came to
his defense, but I did not post the original question.
Yes, I understand that. I meant Jim ISBELL.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
1:38 p.m.
it seems to me that the long winding discussion about picking locks falls
farther out of the classic computer realm than trying to get software
running on a computer...
THERE IS NOTHING CLASSIC ABOUT MAKING
WINDOWS XP RUN ON YOUR LAPTOP AND NOR WILL IT SUBJECTIVELY BE FOR DOZENS
OF YEARS!
7071
days inactive
7075
days old
20 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
dm561＠torfree.net -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
geoffreythomas＠onetel.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jim.isbell＠gmail.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
melamy＠earthlink.net -
trixter＠oldskool.org -
vcf＠siconic.com