25 Nov
2007
25 Nov
'07
1:44 p.m.
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:54:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers...
> Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it
better; in my opinion taking
> advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you more
> professional, not less.
I would agree, but...
1) Being able ot use the tools, however proficiently,
does not
necessarily equate with being able to design/make those tools.
--------
Why do my recent posts seem to generate such odd responses...
Or is it just me?
Why the "but"? Did I imply anything of the sort? Did I say that a
carpenter should know how to make an electric saw or even repair
it when it would be a more efficient use of his time and skills to just
take it to a shop or buy a new one?
------
I haev never used dBase (or any other database for that
matter), so I can't
comment on that, but I will claim that being able to use _some_
application programs does not make you a programmer.
--------
A claim that seems pretty obvious; why make it?
Although some people apparently disagree, dBase is not an application
program; it's very similar to BASIC (and grew and matured just like
BASIC did) but with fairly extensive file-handling and screen-handling
capabilities.
--------
2) The initial question was about education. Education
is not production.
--------
Of course not! That may have been the initial question but by the time of
my reply it had moved to opinions about what defines a "programming
professional," specifically whether someone who codes in dBase or doesn't
know or care about how disk drives work can call him/herself one.
--------
When you're prodcuing something, of course you use
all the applicable
tools. When you're leaning about things, you have to do things 'by hand'
to understand them (and example of this, from another context, is that
photography couses used to insist that the students used cameras with
manaul focuessing and exposure cotnrol, so they could learn what said
adjustments meant, even though if you were being paid to take photographs
you would _probably_ welcome some automation).
In fact I will go further and say that the true
professionals not only use the right
tools, but also fully understnad how those tools work and behave, because that
way they can use them more effectvely.
-----------
I kind of thought that being "proficient," i.e. "having an advanced degree
of
competence" in their use of tools expressed the same sentiment.
Of course as a professional you should know what those camera adjustments
mean and do, but you don't necessarily have to know *how* they work unless
you're interested or plan to go into camera design or repair, or expect to have
to repair it in the middle of nowhere; "how they behave" is not at all the same
as "how they work."
And although you may know all the arcane details of your camera and probably
look down on someone who only points-and-shoots, he or she may well take
better pictures than you, which is after all the whole point of having a camera
(for most people anyway ;-)
-----
> A programming professional's job is to deliver
a product that meets the client's
> needs, is well documented and easily maintained, and is delivered on time and
> within budget. Knowing or caring about the arcane details of a disk drive or being
> able to program an OS-less computer in binary may matter if you're working on
> an embedded controller but it's pretty irrelevant if the project is a client
accounting
> system for a large financial institution.
----------
Tuew, but a 'client system for a large finanicail
instution' is hardly
the only type ofr computer application.
---------
Again, I thought that was obvious and that my mentioning embedded controllers
would suggest that even I knew that and don't need you to point it out...
My point was that there's more to being a programming professional than being
able to code in binary; furthermore, different tasks require different tools and skills
and different people have different interests and abilities, and I find the tendency for
some people here to denigrate others with different goals, interests, abilities and
tastes annoying enough on occasion to comment.
m
25 Nov
25 Nov
3:44 p.m.
M H Stein wrote:
Why the "but"? Did I imply anything of the
sort? Did I say that a
carpenter should know how to make an electric saw or even repair
it when it would be a more efficient use of his time and skills to just
take it to a shop or buy a new one?
------
But it does help if knows how to change the blade. :)
Same with hardware/software -- know your tools.
10:09 p.m.
Although some people apparently disagree, dBase is not
an application
program; it's very similar to BASIC (and grew and matured just like
BASIC did) but with fairly extensive file-handling and
screen-handling capabilities.
How does that make it "not an application program"?
I suppose this really amounts to "just what do you understand an
`application program' to be?". Certainly my own understanding of the
term leaves room for something like dBase (or a Lisp engine, possibly
even with a text editor attached...or for a C compiler...or for that
matter for a BASIC engine). Lots of things have embedded programming
languages. Some of them are sophsticated enough to be useful in their
own right. Sometimes that's even the main purpose of the thing.
Whether such a language engine is an application program or not is, I
think, more a matter of what perspective you happen to be looking at it
from than of anything inherent to the thing itself.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
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11:33 p.m.
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:54:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers...
I shall refrain from commenting :-)
> Tools are developed to make a job easier and
do it better; in my opinion taking
> advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you more
> professional, not less.
I would agree, but...
1) Being able ot use the tools, however
proficiently, does not
necessarily equate with being able to design/make those tools.
--------
Why do my recent posts seem to generate such odd responses...
Or is it just me?
Why the "but"? Did I imply anything of the sort? Did I say that a
carpenter should know how to make an electric saw or even repair
it when it would be a more efficient use of his time and skills to just
take it to a shop or buy a new one?
I would not consider anyone to be a competant machinist if they couldn't
grind their own lathe tools. In fact just about every book i have on
metalwork, amateur angineering, clockmaking, etc. points out that many
specialised tools do have to be made in the workshop.
When you're
prodcuing something, of course you use all the applicable
tools. When you're leaning about things, you have to do things 'by hand'
to understand them (and example of this, from another context, is that
photography couses used to insist that the students used cameras with
manaul focuessing and exposure cotnrol, so they could learn what said
adjustments meant, even though if you were being paid to take photographs
you would _probably_ welcome some automation).
In fact I will go further and say that the true
professionals not only use the right
tools, but also fully understnad how those tools work and behave, because that
way they can use them more effectvely.
-----------
I kind of thought that being "proficient," i.e. "having an advanced degree
of
competence" in their use of tools expressed the same sentiment.
Of course as a professional you should know what those camera adjustments
mean and do, but you don't necessarily have to know *how* they work unless you're interested or plan to go into camera design
or repair, or expect to have
to repair it in the middle of nowhere; "how they behave" is not at all the same
as "how they work."
_I_ find it easier to know how something will behave if I know how it
really works. The latter is based on a few simple physical principles
most of the tiem, so it's not something I am going to mis-rememeber at a
critical momnet.
-tony
6248
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