On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: Like my father-in-law (an attorney) has always said, we may live in a rather litigious society here in the U.S., but it's the safest country in the world as a result. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 healyzh(a)aracnet.com wrote: It was Benjamin Franklin, and I know what you're talking about, but this is the totally wrong context. Would you rather have the freedom to sue when you're legitimately deserving of compensation from being injured by an idiot or the freedom If we're going to talk about "freedom", let's at least put it in the proper context. Until you actually need one... I'm not defending them, I'm just being realistic. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

Wow, I'm going to be partially in agreement with Sellam Ismail on something! On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: I agree; however, I think that with the help of some bad court decisions and certain pea-brained politicians, people are misusing this freedom. The problem is that there are laws that allow for liability where no reasonable person would think there should be an issue of liability. E.g., if someone injures themselves through their own stupidity, they shouldn't be able to sue someone else, such as the person on whose property the injury occured, whether the injured party is a child or not. E.g. if I claim to be knowledgeable about electonics, and get an electic shock from testing a power supply in someone's store, whom I didn't ask for information about how to do this safely from, or get misleading information about this from, then how can it be reasonable to put the responsibility on that other person? People need to accept responsibility for their own actions - that's what is reasonable. Very true; there are some good ones out there who protect us when we need them, and to label them all as money-grubbing sheisters is not only unfair, but dangerous, as, while some of them are politicians, and some cause problems, some of them also help protect us from the damages caused by politicians, etc. Like any other group of people, they're all different; some good, some bad, some intelligent, some a few chips short of a working CPU. -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900

Rumor has it that healyzh(a)aracnet.com may have mentioned these words: [snip] Danger IIRC, that would be Ben Franklin, and I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. In the U.S. right now, people who break the law have *more* civil rights than those who don't... that's a sorry state of affairs. I think the lawsuit that cracked me up the most was the woman tried suing a pharmaceutical company that made contraceptive jelly - due to the word "jelly" she was putting it on her toast in the morning and was totally stunned when she got pregnant. - She was suing the company for all the associated costs the child would incur (medical, clothing, food, etc.) over an 18-year period.... ...All because she was too stupid to read the damn directions. Dunno if she ever won, but personally (and I must add an IMHO) a little more Darwinism in cases like this could only be a good thing... Regards, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: Interestingly, consider how many of our "honorable" (snort) politicians are lawyers - quite a few of them! -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: Carlos, have you ever even been out of the United States? Especially to third world countries? You'd know what I mean if you have. What you say has merit, however, you can't always expect other humans to be looking out for your well being. Especially when profit is involved. To take but one example, do you think cars would be as safe as they are today if manufacturers were not held liable for poor designs? Just something to think about. I'm not arguing this either way. I'm just reminding everyone that rarely is there ever a simple answer to these sorts of things. (There was a really funny skit on the old Saturday Night Live where Dan Akroyd would play this cheezy guy who owned a toy manufacturing company that produced such toys as Syringes in a Bag, and other toys containing razor blades, broken glass, etc.) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Mike Ford wrote: Well, we did have a free press at one point in time, however, with even small local town newspapers being gobbled up by big city newspapers that are owned by large media conglomerates that are well intertwined with large multinational corporations and the influential corruption addicts and other goings on in Washington, D.C., competent reporting is generally intermixed with carefully contrived propaganda, created for the purpose of playing with people's minds in order to move us closer towards a totalitatian one world government. If the minds of so many people weren't so focused on what I call "distractionist topics," which are frequently in the news and topics of debate between politicians, such as education funding, abortion, various political sex scandals, race-related issues, politically correct pettiness, etc., which serve as detractions from other issues with further reaching implications, such as the dangers of increasing federal government, as well as state and local government - often under the influence of the federal government, control over our day to day lives, there would probably be a strong revolt. An interesting quotation: [We] should look forward to a time, and that not a distant one, when corruption in this as in the country from which we derive our origin will have seized the heads of government and be spread by them through the body of the people; when they will purchase the voices of the people and make them pay the price. Human nature is the same on every side of the Atlantic and will be alike influenced by the same causes. --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIII, 1782. ME 2:164 What too many people overlook is the main reason for the right to bear arms. It's not so just for protection from criminals, but for our own protection against a government that restricts our freedom; I'm sure that many of you, hopefully, are familiar with the writings of Thomas Jefferson pertaining to this, such as the following: What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. So that this isn't so far off topic, we may want to think of what role our classic computers have played in helping, or hindering, freedom in the world. Thoughts? -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900

On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: Please. This is as far off the topic of classic computers as you can get, no matter how you try to spin it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

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Reminds me of the following fortune cookie I once wrote: Religious Malpractice (I) When disaster strikes, sue your local Bishop, Minister, Rabbi or Ayatollah for penal damages. Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 1:43 AM Subject: Re: OT Now: Re: TI Professional Computer

Tony Duell wrote: If the practical definition of "win" is "obtain a financial settlement without admission of guilt on my part" then the answer is yes. It is generally far less expensive for an insurance company to simply write you a check and jack up my premiums than it is to litigate, even if they eventually prevail. -- Chris Kennedy chris(a)mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97

Went to the local garage sales this weekend, and actually got a couple rescues: 1) a Commie 1541-II disk drive. With data cable, no PS. No price, so I asked the lady what she wanted. She says $5.00. I get this really, really pained look on my face, she says $2.00... I now have one eye closed with a look of Ooooooh... still too much. She says $1.00 -- I hand over a buck and say "Thanks." Hate to say it, tho-- If she'd have stayed at $5.00, the drive would've stayed, too. (I think she knew that...) 2) This is the "believe it or not" catagory for this area: I found a copy of Digital Research's Concurrent DOS 386, with all docs, slightly beat up box but otherwise in very good shape, marked $1.00. I say: "Will ya take 50 cents?" They say "sure." Bargain of the day! ;-) Anywho, that'll give you an idea of the slim pickin's around my area... Usually the landscape is littered with '286s for $300.00 (firm). Happy Hunting, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

Tony writes: No, you can sue in the second case also. (Well, you can almost *always* sue. The real question is can you win.)

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: That certainly can't be true for all shops over here. Yes, in some ways it is, alas - it's not the same country that I remember growing up in a couple of decades ago, where people had more freedom of speech (no such thing as that political correctness lunacy) and didn't feel like they were living in a police state where spineless idiots were willing to trade freedom for safety, etc. Of course, one must remember that during the big wars (WWI and WWII), this nation's government was allowed to turn into a monster collecting more and more taxes and imposing more and more control over the lives of individuals; actually, the beginnings of that I recon were actually around the time of the Civil War. Who benefitted the most from WWII, if you think about it? Certain large multinational corporations in the U.S., Japan and Germany, etc., at the expense of lives and money stolen from taxpayers which went into their profits. Because politics here is such a screwed-up mess, it's typically the idiots with screwed-up brains who want to get involved in it, and with the help of the newspapers, and TV and radio news, more and more of which are owned by huge corporations, the idiot-puppets get elected, and, hence, the country gets more and more screwed up. Back when I was in grade school, and in some college classes as well, we were often taught, in history classes, etc. about the falls of ancient Greece and Rome, and how such things a corruption in government, etc. could cause the same thing here. Apparently few others were paying attention; people get so obsessed with little pet issues, that they don't look at the whole picture when they go to vote - plus, most people are apparently like sheep - they only want to vote for the candidate that they think is popular and will win, so, the polls (that some people believe the results of) also influence elections. -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900

On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote: See later remarks. It is my understanding that 'contingency fee' lawsuits are not permitted in the UK. If I am correct, that alone would account for a diminished number of suits. Funny how less worth while some things become when you have to put up your own money! - don