12 Jun
2002
12 Jun
'02
2:14 p.m.
From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk
Hi
I have never seen this on a solenoid type of starter relay.
The switches on the solenoid were always for the ignition
resistor bypass and the main switch for the starter motor.
The only time I've seen this is on the Ford type starter where
the pull in for the gear comes from a pole piece in the started
motor. The pole piece would pull in and change the field to be
series with the motor armature. There was a separate solenoid
that powered this and it always had the full coil current and
only switched the current to the starter and the ignition
resistor bypass.
Pinball machines do have what is called a EOS ( end of stroke )
switch that is used on flippers to reduce the current for holding.
Dwight
The guy there is accustomed to seeing me come
in for DE9 connectors,
hoods, & computer stuff, and always asks "What are you building this
time?" He doesn't know anything, but at least he's curious... I found
a push-button rated at 3A, 125VAC, and brought it up. Darrell says
"Building one from scratch now, are ya?" I told him no, it's a starter
switch for my pickup. He refused to sell it to me, because "Those
starters pull 20 or 30 amps, and that's *DC*, too! That switch will
Hmm... In every UK car I have worked on, the starter motor itself draws
about 600A on-load from the battery. This current is switched by the
starter solenoid contacts which acts (in part -- it also moves the
pinion into mesh with the flywheel) as a large relay.
But the solenoid coil draws significant current as well. There are
typically 2 windings, one to pull the core in, one to hold it. The
former typically draws about 17A, the latter about 4A.
Now, admittedly the former should only operate until the solenoid has
pulled in, But if there are problems (a typical one is a relatively high
high resistance connection in the circuit which limits the current to
(say) 10A -- the solenoid will then not pull in and disconnect the first
winding), then the current through the switch will be a lot higher than
you might expect.
I certainly wouldn't use a 3A AC swtich for a starter solenoid operating
button. It's way underrated.
-tony
12 Jun
12 Jun
3:11 p.m.
You need to take one apart. Electronics I'm no guru. Automotive
electrical systems from 1940-1980 I've got down.
The standard starter solenoid used in a majority of automobiles is
similar to the one produced by AC-Delco. The basic terminal connections
are: 12v high amperage in, 12v high amperage out, 12v switch current in.
When the power is applied to the 12v switch current in terminal, it
energizes the coil, pulling a cylinder into the coil against spring
pressure. As the cylinder reaches the end of its travel it depresses a
'button' which moves a copper disk, against spring pressure again, to
connect the 12v high amperage terminals together. This applies voltage
to the starter motor windings. Additionally, the cylinder is connected
mechanically to a fork that moves the starter drive into engagement with
the flywheel.
AFAIK, the typical Delco solenoid is only one winding.
How do I know all this? When you're broke, you can open up the
solenoid, rotate the big copper disk 90 deg., put it back together and
not have to spend the $12 for a new one...
Jim
"Dwight K. Elvey" wrote:
Hi
I have never seen this on a solenoid type of starter relay.
The switches on the solenoid were always for the ignition
resistor bypass and the main switch for the starter motor.
The only time I've seen this is on the Ford type starter where
the pull in for the gear comes from a pole piece in the started
motor. The pole piece would pull in and change the field to be
series with the motor armature. There was a separate solenoid
that powered this and it always had the full coil current and
only switched the current to the starter and the ignition
resistor bypass.
Pinball machines do have what is called a EOS ( end of stroke )
switch that is used on flippers to reduce the current for holding.
Dwight
4:12 p.m.
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6:50 p.m.
At 05:11 PM 6/12/02 -0700, you wrote:
How do I know all this? When you're broke, you can
open up the
solenoid, rotate the big copper disk 90 deg., put it back together and
not have to spend the $12 for a new one...
Jim
as a student, I used to repair the solenoid in my 1986 chevy nova
(the toyota-made one) with pieces of copper plumbing pipe.
Boy, did I get my hands greased back then...
But, going back to the original topic, as much as I also hate RS,
I have fond, lasting memories of my "150 in 1" electronic projects
kit. It was the best present that an uncle [1] could give to a 12 year
old.
carlos.
[1] He was a long time radio enthusiast. Around 1934, he built
and operated the first AM radio station in his town in rural Mexico.
When he was older, I was very proud that he would trust my skills and
give me kits to build for him--he could no longer solder.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
7:10 p.m.
Carlos,
FWIW, that kit is still in production and is used in the local jr.
college's Intro to Electricity course.
Jim
Carlos Murillo wrote:
But, going back to the original topic, as much as I
also hate RS,
I have fond, lasting memories of my "150 in 1" electronic projects
kit. It was the best present that an uncle [1] could give to a 12 year
old.
13 Jun
13 Jun
10:09 a.m.
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12 Jun
12 Jun
3:55 p.m.
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6:24 p.m.
Quothe Tony Duell, from writings of Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 01:55:45AM +0100:
[quoting ?]
['old' Bendix drive? :-)]
As far as I know, Ford starters use a separate starter solenoid,
mounted above the inner fender, above the passenger-side front tire,
about a foot or so away from the battery. The starters themselves use
a Bendix spring to engage the starter. A common failure, causing many
mechanics to sell people new batteries, new starters, new voltage
regulators, new solenoids, etc. is when the screws holding the
solenoid to the frame become a little too loose, or if there's some
oxidation/rust there causing a bad connection to the frame. Also, it
helps to use a piece of high temperature hose, or asbestos tubing,
around the cable leading from the solenoid to the starter; this
prevents the passenger-side exhause manifold, or headers, from melting
the insulation on the cable... when that happens, some mechanics try
to sell people new batteries, starters, etc. rather than just
replacing, or better insulating, the cable.
Disclaimer: as to those newfangled Fords made after the 1970s, I've no
idea what sort of peculiar things go on under their hoods (bonnets),
and I don't really want to know, but I hear that some don't even use
spark plugs, distributors or carburators. All of the new (post 1970s)
motorcars are too strange for my tastes; weird machines, extremely
weird and overly complex, and cheaply built, machines with expensive
price tags.
Have engineers forgotten how to design things that work properly while
not being overly complex? It appears that needlessly complex gadgetry
has replaced functionality.
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
The only time
I've seen this is on the Ford type starter where
the pull in for the gear comes from a pole piece in the started
Pre-Engaged starter motors (that's to say, ones where the solenoid moves
the pinion into mesh before turning on the motor, as opposed to some
device that moves the pinion into mesh when the motor turns, like the old
'Bendix' drive or the ones where the armature moves along the body of the
6:54 p.m.
Since we're venturing waaaaay off topic here...
"R. D. Davis" wrote:
Disclaimer: as to those newfangled Fords made after the 1970s, I've no
idea what sort of peculiar things go on under their hoods (bonnets),
and I don't really want to know, but I hear that some don't even use
spark plugs, distributors or carburators. All of the new (post 1970s)
motorcars are too strange for my tastes; weird machines, extremely
weird and overly complex, and cheaply built, machines with expensive
price tags.
Have engineers forgotten how to design things that work properly while
not being overly complex? It appears that needlessly complex gadgetry
has replaced functionality.
Hi-tech has replaced lo-tech. Prior to the time period mentioned above,
automotive systems hadn't significantly changed in five decades.
(carburated, kettering ignitioned) Beginning in the mid-seventies,
federally mandated emissions standards required those engineers to
modify legacy systems to achieve the required pollution levels. From
about 1977 to about 1990 American automobile engines were impossible.
The engineers were constrained to clean these engines up without really
*changing* them. They did this by adding devices such as EGR, Thermal
Reactors, modified ignition timing, electronic! carburetors. (I own a
1984 Eagle and it has at least 50' of vacuum hose in it.)
By the early 1990s the electronics 'state-of-the-art' had progressed far
enough to allow a cost effective change-over to solid state engine
controls. This progression has continued to the point that current
generation automobiles have a 'tune-up' interval approaching 100k miles.
That's right, 100k miles. If I'm not mistaken, current EPA regulations
require the manufacturer to warrant that said vehicle will not exceed
its emissions requirements for that period. Hence, it actually is to the
manufacturer's advantage to build it to last. (Less expensive to make it
right than to *make* it right under warranty.)
The downside of this is that the owner no longer purchases and replaces
a set of points and plugs but instead must either purchase a $3k scanner
or take the vehicle to a technician to determine any malfunctions. The
upside, discounting the increased reliability, is that an OBD II
(On-board diagnostic Revision 2) equipped automobile will tell you or
that technician precisely which $500+ component has failed. It will also
warn of impending failures by reporting out of spec parameters.
When I was first starting out in the automotive trade, most vehicles
were worn out, even with meticulous care, at 100 to 150k miles. Today,
it is common for a vehicle to go twice to three times that distance
without major repairs. Hence the decline of the small independent shop.
(I own three four wheeled conveyances. Each of them has 200k+ miles on
their original engines. None of them uses significant quantities of
lubricants (they don't burn oil.) They're getting tired, but I fully
expect to get another 100k out of each of them before replacement.
Of course, as they say on the automotive lists, YMMV. (your mileage may vary)
Jim
13 Jun
13 Jun
6:44 a.m.
--- Jim Arnott <jrasite(a)eoni.com> wrote:
Since we're venturing waaaaay off topic here...
Indeed.
The downside of this is that the owner no longer
purchases and replaces
a set of points and plugs but instead must either purchase a $3k scanner
or take the vehicle to a technician to determine any malfunctions. The
upside, discounting the increased reliability, is that an OBD II
(On-board diagnostic Revision 2) equipped automobile will tell you or
that technician precisely which $500+ component has failed. It will also
warn of impending failures by reporting out of spec parameters.
I have a $70 PIC-based ODB-II scanner. Unfortunately, the free software
with it does not work with my 1998 Saturn. :-( If I want a scanner,
I may have to step up to the $350-$500 range.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
7:01 a.m.
The guy at www.obd-2.com, Alex Peper, has a low cost one that should work
with your Saturn. There's also a project on Sourceforge.net for an open
source scanner, although it's still in it's infancy. There are plenty of
alternatives to $3K scanners these days.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 11:45
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: I hate Radio Shack
--- Jim Arnott <jrasite(a)eoni.com> wrote:
Since we're venturing waaaaay off topic here...
Indeed.
The downside of this is that the owner no longer
purchases and replaces
a set of points and plugs but instead must either purchase a $3k scanner
or take the vehicle to a technician to determine any malfunctions. The
upside, discounting the increased reliability, is that an OBD II
(On-board diagnostic Revision 2) equipped automobile will tell you or
that technician precisely which $500+ component has failed. It will also
warn of impending failures by reporting out of spec parameters.
I have a $70 PIC-based ODB-II scanner. Unfortunately, the free software
with it does not work with my 1998 Saturn. :-( If I want a scanner,
I may have to step up to the $350-$500 range.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
9:18 a.m.
--- "J.C. Wren" <jcwren(a)jcwren.com> wrote:
The guy at www.obd-2.com, Alex Peper, has a low cost
one that should
work with your Saturn.
I didn't see that one when I was looking a couple of months ago. It's
double the cost of the one I did buy, but if it works, it's probably
worth it.
There's also a project on Sourceforge.net for an
open
source scanner, although it's still in it's infancy.
I did see that one. Too green. I needed something last month to
clear a code (turns out 150 miles was enough to clear the "CHECK ENGINE"
light after I made the necessary repairs).
Thanks for the tip.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
8:51 a.m.
New subject: I hate JC Whitney
On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, R. D. Davis wrote:
['old' Bendix drive? :-)]
It's like
"old MS-DOS"
Disclaimer: as to those newfangled Fords made after
the 1970s, I've no
idea what sort of peculiar things go on under their hoods (bonnets),
and I don't really want to know, but I hear that some don't even use
spark plugs, distributors or carburators. All of the new (post 1970s)
motorcars are too strange for my tastes; weird machines, extremely
weird and overly complex, and cheaply built, machines with expensive
price tags.
OK
Should automotive discussions follow the same 10 year rule, or should we
set the bar at 20 years for automotive?
You talked about insulating starter wires. The "brain" (computer) for the
1968 and on VW squareback fool injection was heat sensitive. A few of
them were actually DESTROYED (needing somebody of Tony's ability to
repair) when auto paint shops baked new paint jobs.
Have engineers forgotten how to design things that
work properly while
not being overly complex? It appears that needlessly complex gadgetry
has replaced functionality.
A glance at modern (OT) computers or software will answer THAT question.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred
9:57 a.m.
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2 p.m.
My absolutely favorite quote:
"Parts left out cost nothing and have an infinite service life."
Chas. (Boss) Kettering
Chief Engineer General Motors
Tony Duell wrote:
I believe that I.K. Brunell once said 'Any third-rate engineer can make a
complicated device even more complicated. It takes a genius to go back to
first principles'. From what I can see, there are a lot of 3rd-rate
engineers out there at the moment.
-tony
2:28 p.m.
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2:03 p.m.
New subject: Network card for LaserJet
It's 8 years old, so it's off-topic but I would like some info befor I
plug it in...
Printer: QMS PS-1700
Card: Extended Systems ESI 2041 Share Spool
It appears to be an ethernet card for the printer (4 RJ-45 connectors)
Anyone have experience with them?
Jim
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Network card for LaserJet
Never mind... Doesn't physically fit. A real Aw S... moment.
Jim
Jim Arnott wrote:
It's 8 years old, so it's off-topic but I would like some info before I
plug it in...
Printer: QMS PS-1700
Card: Extended Systems ESI 2041 Share Spool
It appears to be an ethernet card for the printer (4 RJ-45 connectors)
Anyone have experience with them?
Jim
2:50 p.m.
New subject: Network card for LaserJet
it's not ethernet, it's 4 serial ports
At 04:03 PM 6/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
It's 8 years old, so it's off-topic but I would
like some info befor I
plug it in...
Printer: QMS PS-1700
Card: Extended Systems ESI 2041 Share Spool
It appears to be an ethernet card for the printer (4 RJ-45 connectors)
Anyone have experience with them?
Jim
3:03 p.m.
New subject: Network card for LaserJet
Thanks.
Never seen Serial RJ-45 ports before
Jim
14 Jun
14 Jun
4:03 a.m.
New subject: Network card for LaserJet
Serial? More like video-level signals driving the laser engine,
I'd guess.
- John
At 11:44 PM 6/13/2002 -0700, you wrote:
No problem, I have one of those around here with a
resistor network pack that's cracked.....
At 05:03 PM 6/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks.
>
>Never seen Serial RJ-45 ports before
>
>Jim
13 Jun
13 Jun
2:33 p.m.
On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
At one time (1940s?) there was an idea in the UK to
used a single machine
as both the starter motor and dynamo (DC generator). It was generally
chain-driven from the crankshaft, and I think it had separate
windings for the 2 functions. The problem was finding a gear ratio
between the machine and the engine that (a) let the engine turn fast
enough to start and (b) didn't cause the electrical machine to fly apart
when the engine was running at maximum speed.
The Honda AN360 did that. The starter/alternator was monted on the end of
the crankshaft, and the starter was virtually silent.
For the U.S. models (AN600 1970-1972), they increased the engine
displacement to 600cc (in order to bring it up to 36HP), and, while
keeping the alternator on the end of the crankshaft, switched to a
"conventional" type of starter motor.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:50 p.m.
Most diesel electrics are started from the dynamo. Some connections are
switched and the engine is excited.
On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
Quothe Tony Duell, from writings of Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 01:55:45AM +0100:
[quoting ?]
['old' Bendix drive? :-)]
Well, OK, this _is_ classiccmp were people like old (and solid) designs
:-).
At one time (1940s?) there was an idea in the UK to used a single machine
as both the starter motor and dynamo (DC generator). It was generally
chain-driven from the crankshaft, and I think it had separate
windings for the 2 functions. The problem was finding a gear ratio
between the machine and the engine that (a) let the engine turn fast
enough to start and (b) didn't cause the electrical machine to fly apart
when the engine was running at maximum speed.
The only
time I've seen this is on the Ford type starter where
the pull in for the gear comes from a pole piece in the started
Pre-Engaged starter motors (that's to say, ones where the solenoid moves
the pinion into mesh before turning on the motor, as opposed to some
device that moves the pinion into mesh when the motor turns, like the old
'Bendix' drive or the ones where the armature moves along the body of the
As far as I know, Ford starters use a separate starter solenoid,
mounted above the inner fender, above the passenger-side front tire,
about a foot or so away from the battery. The starters themselves use
a Bendix spring to engage the starter. A common failure, causing many
mechanics to sell people new batteries, new starters, new voltage
regulators, new solenoids, etc. is when the screws holding the
solenoid to the frame become a little too loose, or if there's some
oxidation/rust there causing a bad connection to the frame. Also, it
Now you mention it, I cured just that fault on a UK-built Mini not too
long ago. An idiot garage [1] had fitted the wrong battery which meant
the leads weren't long enough. They'd 'cured' this by bolting the
(separate) starter solenoid to the frame with one screw only. It had come
loose, the starter didn't operate. Of course I fixed it properly....
[1] Is there any other kind? In the UK most garage mechanics make
computer field servoids look clueful. I knew there was a reason why we do
all our own servicing and repairs :-)
helps to use a piece of high temperature hose, or
asbestos tubing,
around the cable leading from the solenoid to the starter; this
prevents the passenger-side exhause manifold, or headers, from melting
the insulation on the cable... when that happens, some mechanics try
to sell people new batteries, starters, etc. rather than just
Like field servoids, garage mechanics like swapping out parts without
bothering to do tests to find out what the real problem is.
replacing, or better insulating, the cable.
Disclaimer: as to those newfangled Fords made after the 1970s, I've no
idea what sort of peculiar things go on under their hoods (bonnets),
and I don't really want to know, but I hear that some don't even use
spark plugs, distributors or carburators. All of the new (post 1970s)
This is true. But some pre-1970 cars don't either (Diesel engines were in
use before 1970 :-)). Of course many modern cars have far too many
electronic computers in them (the correct number, of course, is zero).
motorcars are too strange for my tastes; weird
machines, extremely
There is nothing wrong with weird machines. I happen to like the Citroen
DS, which is certainly _strange_. The 6V models (1959 version if I
remember the shop manual correctly) don't even have an HT distributor....
There is a lot wrong with 'solving' problems by adding unnecessary
complexity.
weird and overly complex, and cheaply built,
machines with expensive
price tags.
Have engineers forgotten how to design things that work properly while
not being overly complex? It appears that needlessly complex gadgetry
has replaced functionality.
I believe that I.K. Brunell once said 'Any third-rate engineer can make a
complicated device even more complicated. It takes a genius to go back to
first principles'. From what I can see, there are a lot of 3rd-rate
engineers out there at the moment.
-tony
11:05 p.m.
Hi,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:
At one time (1940s?) there was an idea in the UK to used a single machine
as both the starter motor and dynamo (DC generator).
There was also the Sibe Dynastarter combined starter/generator fitted to
the NSU Prinz 600cc car among other small engines.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
15 Jun
15 Jun
4:44 a.m.
New subject: Computers in cars (was: I hate Radio Shack
Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words:
This is true. But some pre-1970 cars don't either
(Diesel engines were in
use before 1970 :-)). Of course many modern cars have far too many
electronic computers in them (the correct number, of course, is zero).
I disagree - the correct number should be 1. One computer, of
6800/6809/6502/Z80/8085 vintage, with separate RAM/ROM/NVRAM data storage
chips, an RS-232 port for in-circuit programming & data logging
capabilities (with a simple enough protocol that you could do any work you
needed with it with a Tandy 100/102/200 laptop) to run the dashboard
functions. The automobile should, of course, be able to run with the
computer completely non-functional, or even non-existent (in case you
needed to take a quick jaunt to the store for a few more pints while you
were working on the dashboard... :-)
This is what I wanted to do with my 1984 Fiero, until I recently found out
the engine went the way of the dodo-bird... :-(
I strongly believe that computers anywhere near the engine compartment is a
*very* bad thing, tho...
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
9:22 a.m.
New subject: Computers in cars (was: I hate Radio Shack
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10:16 a.m.
New subject: Computers in cars (was: I hate Radio Shack
On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
If I ever learn to drive, I intend to use a PDP11/05
as an in-car
computer (just for monitoring functions, etc). In the back of a real Land
Rover, of course. Powering it could be 'fun', but at least with core
memory I'd not have to bother with a disk drive....
Semi-related;
In Wellington, New Zealand, a large proportion of the traffic lights in
the central city (A city of 450,000 people) is controlled by a PDP11/34a.
This 11/34a has been in place since 1981, I believe, and since it just
continually does its job, its yet to be replaced.
They use a VAX of some description as a backup unit.
At last count - which was maybe 3 or 4 years ago now - the unit hadn't
been power cycled since '84.
JP
7:11 p.m.
New subject: Computers in cars (was: I hate Radio Shack
Tony Duell wrote:
If I ever learn to drive, I intend to use a PDP11/05
as an in-car
computer (just for monitoring functions, etc). In the back of a real Land
Rover, of course. Powering it could be 'fun', but at least with core
memory I'd not have to bother with a disk drive....
You don't drive??? How do you get around, pick up
parts/computers/groceries, etc?
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
16 Jun
16 Jun
1:22 p.m.
New subject: Computers in cars (was: I hate Radio Shack
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17 Jun
17 Jun
7:21 p.m.
New subject: Computers in cars (was: I hate Radio Shack
Tony Duell wrote:
FOrtunately London has a useable public transport
system (and it's not
that expensive either). And yes, I have carried 19" rack units on the
bus/Underground....
-tony
Do you mean a component that gets rackmounted, or a whole rack?
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
18 Jun
18 Jun
12:41 p.m.
New subject: Computers in cars (was: I hate Radio Shack
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2:41 p.m.
New subject: Computers in cars (was: I hate Radio Shack
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
A mad friend of mine once moved an 11/44 system (in a
pair of half-height
racks) on the London Underground. He made several journeys -- bags of
boards and the mounting box, then the drives, then the rack side panels,
etc, and finally the empty frames. Got the whole thing home in one day
(which meant he only had to buy one Travelcard costing about \pounds
5.00). Not too expensive to move a complete machine in a way that ensures
it won't get mangled...
This is the coolest thing I have heard so far this week :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
19 Jun
19 Jun
2:02 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
From: "Tony Duell"
I've taken things
like RL disk drives, PDP11/05s, AR88, etc on public transport...
You surely must have had wheels on the AR88--(was it a D or an LF?)
Or are you a Charles Atlas lookalike? ( I guess that dates me!)
Dave B
Ch Ch NZ
2:42 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
You surely must have had wheels on the AR88--(was it a
D or an LF?)
Or are you a Charles Atlas lookalike? ( I guess that dates me!)
Wouldn't be so sure of that
When I was about 14 I took a B40* home from Lisle St** to Tonbridge (30
miles) by public transport. 10 stone weaklings 'r us!
* The Navy equivalent to the AR88 - built for a battleship ... and looks and
weighs it!
** Now that _really_ dates me ... of the three centres of surplus kit in
London (Lisle St area, Tottenham Court Road, Edgware Road) only one shop
survives in Edgware Rd and it's a poor shadow of its previous incarnation.
Andy
12:57 p.m.
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12:53 p.m.
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1:49 p.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
Tony wrote:
I normally describe myself as being the size and
weight of a
fully-stuffed H960 rack :-). Perhaps that explains it.
If you're the size and weight of a fully-stuffed H960 rack (stuffed
with DEC gear, I presume), you're extremely under-tall. You probably
should be at least twice as tall as the H960.
2:28 p.m.
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20 Jun
20 Jun
3:38 p.m.
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21 Jun
21 Jun
11:03 p.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
I wrote:
OK, I'll take your word for that.
Just because this made me curious, I looked up the specs on the H960.
The H960 is a family of racks that can vary quite a bit based on the
suffix. The individual components that make up an H960 have H95x-xx part
numbers. The basic rack frame is an H950-AA. It has the four EIA-drilled
vertical rails, the base with casters, and the top with provision for two
fans. It does not include doors, side panels, mounting frames,
stabilizers, logo panels, blank panels, kick plates, fans, power
controllers, etc.
The H950-AA weighs 78.5 kg. H950-BA or -CA full-height doors weigh
13.6 kg each. H952-AA side panels weigh 14.5 kg each. And don't forget
the H950-LA or -LB logo panels at 0.68 kg or 0.11 kg, respectively. :-)
Of course, there's lots of other options including hinged mounting
frames.
So an "empty" H960 would weigh more depending on what other hardware
is attached.
The H960 is rated for up to 272 kg of load.
So a full H960 with panels and doors could potentially weigh more than
407 kg.
And I'm pretty sure I've seen some that were well over the rated capacity,
but naturally that's unsupported. (In more than one sense, if your floor
isn't sufficiently robust!)
At my last place of employment, we built really huge routers. Our
only competitor that had a product somewhat comparable to ours (and no,
it wasn't Cisco or Juniper) somehow managed to make their box so heavy
that it exceeded the NEBS standard for floor loading. They had to
reinforce the floor at their field test sites. Fortunately our product
was within the NEBS limits.
It is.
It's not uncommon for a fully loaded one to weigh over 250 kg.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And you think I don't :-) :-)...
Anyway, the original comment was over the height IIRC. Given that the
H960 is what I thoguth it was, I will carry on claiming to be the same
size as one (in all directions).
19 Jun
19 Jun
10:54 p.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
> Or are you a Charles Atlas lookalike? ( I guess
that dates me!)
TD sed--
Who?
He was a male "superbod" who advertised his 'look like me in just three
weeks' (or was it years?) phys ed courses and paraphanalia etc in 'manly'
reading material in the fifties- e.g. Popular Mechanics , etc.
DaveB
20 Jun
20 Jun
7 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
He also regularly got sand kicked in his face while "beach-bunnies" looked
on disdainfully until he developed his physique. And then they clustered
around him admiringly and bullies slunk away. BB-guns and Ryder bicycles
were also back-cover features on most comic-books as well.
Lawrence
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
> Or are you a Charles Atlas lookalike? ( I
guess that dates me!)
TD sed--
Who?
He was a male "superbod" who advertised his 'look like me in just three
weeks' (or was it years?) phys ed courses and paraphanalia etc in 'manly'
reading material in the fifties- e.g. Popular Mechanics , etc.
DaveB
7:53 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
He also regularly got sand kicked in his face while
"beach-bunnies" looked
on disdainfully until he developed his physique. And then they clustered
around him admiringly and bullies slunk away. BB-guns and Ryder bicycles
were also back-cover features on most comic-books as well.
I always did want to learn how to rip a phone book in half with my bare
hands but never got around to ordering.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
7:59 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
It's a physics trick - you hold the phone book just right, spine down,
and slide the cover facing you down just a little, and you are only
tearing a few pages at a time.
With a little practice, it looks convincing.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
He also regularly got sand kicked in his face...
I always did want to learn how to rip a phone book in half with my bare
hands but never got around to ordering.
8:12 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
I always did want to learn how to rip a phone book in
half with my bare
hands but never got around to ordering.
Roll it up, with the binding in and pages out. When rolled, the page
edges will be offset enough that you can start tearing pages a few at a
time, until the tear is started on all pages. then let it unroll and
finish the tear.
8:16 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
Ethan Dicks wrote:
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
And even easier if you thoroughly dry out the phone book in the oven first
(an electric oven is best - no water vapour by-products of combustion).
Just a little further trickery to add to the problem,
Dave.
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
It's a physics trick - you hold the phone book just right, spine down,
and slide the cover facing you down just a little, and you are only
tearing a few pages at a time.
With a little practice, it looks convincing.
-ethan
He also regularly got sand kicked in his face...
I always did want to learn how to rip a phone book in half with my bare
hands but never got around to ordering.
8:28 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
Easy: Move to a really, *really* small town.
:-)
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
He also regularly got sand kicked in his face
while "beach-bunnies" looked
on disdainfully until he developed his physique. And then they clustered
around him admiringly and bullies slunk away. BB-guns and Ryder bicycles
were also back-cover features on most comic-books as well.
I always did want to learn how to rip a phone book in half with my bare
hands but never got around to ordering. 
11:32 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
He also regularly got sand kicked in his face while
"beach-bunnies" looked
on disdainfully until he developed his physique. And then they clustered
around him admiringly and bullies slunk away. BB-guns and Ryder bicycles
were also back-cover features on most comic-books as well.
Along with the ads for the American Revolution figures and
the X-ray eyeglasses and sea monkeys. Some of that stuff actually
stayed on the back covers for quite a few years.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
11:55 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote:
I bought the rather impressive looking set of "300 army men" or whatever
the number was only to be severely disappointed when I got them to find
they were cheap molded plastic bastards that were of majorly suckish
quality compared to the more durable and softer plastic variety you could
get from the grocery store toy section.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
He also
regularly got sand kicked in his face while "beach-bunnies" looked
on disdainfully until he developed his physique. And then they clustered
around him admiringly and bullies slunk away. BB-guns and Ryder bicycles
were also back-cover features on most comic-books as well.
Along with the ads for the American Revolution figures and
the X-ray eyeglasses and sea monkeys. Some of that stuff actually
stayed on the back covers for quite a few years.
12:04 p.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
I bought the rather impressive looking set of "300
army men" or whatever
the number was only to be severely disappointed when I got them to find
they were cheap molded plastic bastards that were of majorly suckish
quality compared to the more durable and softer plastic variety you could
get from the grocery store toy section.
I never ordered any of the stuff from the comic books but
figured that it wouldn't be quite what was represented. A few years
ago though while I was in Italy I did pick up a set of the green
plastic soldiers. I hadn't seen any for a while and thought it'd be
cool.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
21 Jun
21 Jun
3:49 a.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
At 01:55 PM 6/20/2002 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
I bought the rather impressive looking set of "300
army men" or whatever
the number was only to be severely disappointed when I got them to find
they were cheap molded plastic bastards that were of majorly suckish
quality compared to the more durable and softer plastic variety you could
get from the grocery store toy section.
The route to success in any mail order business is
to pick a product that costs you less than you
charge the customer for shipping and handling.
My now 7-year-old son has long had a fantasy of building
a helicopter out of scrap wood. I decided to show him the
mail order page from "Boy's Life", which is still carrying
the same ads I remember for the build-your-own hovercraft,
and the "free chameleon."
- John
20 Jun
20 Jun
3:56 p.m.
New subject: Computers in Public Xport
I recall seeing a Charles Atlas website somewhere with a complete biography.
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
He also regularly got sand kicked in his face while
"beach-bunnies" looked
on disdainfully until he developed his physique. And then they clustered
around him admiringly and bullies slunk away. BB-guns and Ryder bicycles
were also back-cover features on most comic-books as well.
Lawrence
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
> Or are you a Charles Atlas lookalike? ( I
guess that dates me!)
TD sed--
Who?
He was a male "superbod" who advertised his 'look like me in just three
weeks' (or was it years?) phys ed courses and paraphanalia etc in 'manly'
reading material in the fifties- e.g. Popular Mechanics , etc.
DaveB
8067
days inactive
8077
days old
53 comments
22 participants
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