14 Jan
2017
14 Jan
'17
3:40 p.m.
From: "Rick Bensene" <rickb at
bensene.com>
> - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation using a National 32016 CPU and a
> 4.2bsd port called UTek
>
Jon wrote:
Gee, how does it perform? I built a clone of a Logical
Microcomputer Co. 32016 Multibus system and got it working.
But, it was glacially slow! I did have some memory that was likely a little slower than
the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow. But, firing up certain things >like
editors was just maddening. And, I'm not talking about Emacs, just vi. I eventually
got a MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, that DID have a cache to speed >up the
memory, but it was quite a difference.
Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad. By today's standards, yeah,
it's pretty darned slow.
Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on it. It runs rogue
pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people to play it at once.
The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps. Without additional RAM, there's only
1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB makes it incredibly slow. There
isn't any external cache.
It's fun to fire it up and just relive the days when I was on cloud nine to have my
own personal Unix workstation that I built myself from parts.
-Rick
14 Jan
14 Jan
6:29 p.m.
On 01/14/2017 05:40 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:
Ahh, that may be part of the difference. I can't
remember how much
memory I had on it. I would not be surprised if it was as tiny as 128
KB, or maybe 256 KB. I'll check my schematics to see how many address
lines were implemented.
From: "Rick Bensene" <rickb at
bensene.com>
> - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation using a National 32016 CPU and a
> 4.2bsd port called UTek
>
Jon wrote:
Gee, how does it perform? I built a clone of a
Logical Microcomputer Co. 32016 Multibus system and got it working.
But, it was glacially slow! I did have some memory that was likely a little slower than
the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow. But, firing up certain things >like
editors was just maddening. And, I'm not talking about Emacs, just vi. I eventually
got a MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, that DID have a cache to speed >up the
memory, but it was quite a difference.
Well...considering the era, it wasn't
too bad. By today's standards, yeah, it's pretty darned slow.
Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on it. It runs rogue
pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people to play it at once.
The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps. Without additional RAM, there's
only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB makes it incredibly slow. There
isn't any external cache. It's fun to fire it up and just relive the days
when I was on cloud nine to have my own personal Unix workstation that I built myself from
parts.
If mine hadn't performed so poorly, I might have continued to use it,
and upgraded parts.
I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it. These were likely early
ports for the 32016, and may have had poor implementations for the MMU
for instance.
Jon
7:10 p.m.
I initially wrote in response to this thread:
>>> - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation using
a National 32016 CPU and
>>> a 4.2bsd port called UTek
> Jon responded:
>
>> Gee, how does it perform? I built a clone of a Logical Microcomputer Co. 32016
Multibus system and got it working.
>> But, it was glacially slow! I did have some memory that was likely a little
slower than the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow. But, firing up certain
>>>things like editors was just maddening. And, I'm not talking about Emacs,
just vi. I eventually got a MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, that DID have a cache
>>to speed up the memory, but it was quite a difference.
..and I responded with:
> Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad.
By today's standards, yeah, it's pretty darned slow.
> Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on it. It runs
rogue pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people to play it at once.
>
> The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps. Without additional RAM, there's
only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB makes it >>incredibly slow.
There isn't any external cache.
And Jon wrote back:
Ahh, that may be part of the difference. I can't
remember how much memory I had on it. I would not be surprised if it was as tiny as 128
KB, or maybe 256 KB. >I'll check my schematics to see how many address lines were
implemented.''
With that little memory, even with cache, it was bound to be slow, and probably ended up
paging a lot.
If mine hadn't performed so poorly, I might have continued to use it, and upgraded
parts.
I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it. These were likely early ports for the 32016,
and may have had poor implementations for the MMU for instance.
The real difference was likely that UTek was a pretty true port of Berkeley 4.2 for the
VAX, which was a really good fit for the mature (for the time) virtual memory management
features offered by BSD Unix, and the demand-paged virtual memory capabilities of the
32016 chipset.
-Rick
15 Jan
15 Jan
10:02 a.m.
I'd have to say my HP-2000 systems that are running are the rarest that I'm aware
of. I know of a few folks who have various bits and pieces towards assembling one, but not
complete. I know two collectors who (each) have most if not all of the parts, but the
systems are far from operational and likely never will be.
So I fairly strongly suspect that my running HP-2000's are the only ones left,
anywhere. I have one HP-2000/Access system using dual 2100A/S cpus with HP paper tape
readers and punches, another HP-2000/Access system using dual 21MX/E's, and an
HP-2000/E using one 21MX. Each of those have their own 7900, 7906 disc drives and 7970
(not the 2000/E) tape units.
I think the most I ever paid for a system at once was $1500 for a "system", and
about $2000 for a pallet of two incomplete systems. But in order to get the 3 HP-2000
systems mentioned above and running, I'm sure it's edged uncomfortably into the 5
digit range.
All the other systems in my collection, while perhaps highly sought after... there are
tens if not hundreds of identical systems in other collectors hands.
J
10:20 a.m.
On 1/15/17 10:02 AM, Jay West wrote:
I'd have to say my HP-2000 systems that are
running are the rarest that I'm aware of.
So I fairly strongly suspect that my running HP-2000's are the only ones left,
anywhere.
probably true.
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682887
is probably an Access system, I never looked to see if it has the interprocessor comm
link
11:47 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 10:20:56AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
On 1/15/17 10:02 AM, Jay West wrote:
There is a system quite like it standing in the halls of the maths
department here. I'll have to take a closer look next time I'm there.
/P
I'd have to say my HP-2000 systems that are
running are the rarest that I'm aware of.
So I fairly strongly suspect that my running HP-2000's are the only ones left,
anywhere.
probably true.
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682887
16 Jan
16 Jan
5:27 p.m.
Yes. Please do!
Pontus wrote...
There is a system quite like it standing in the halls of the maths
department here. I'll have to take a closer look next time I'm there.
/P
11:56 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 07:27:00PM -0600, Jay West wrote:
Yes. Please do!
Pontus wrote...
There is a system quite like it standing in the halls of the maths
department here. I'll have to take a closer look next time I'm there.
I'll go there on thursday. I suspect it will be anticlimactic, I think
it's newer. But I'll take a picture, it's a neat setup.
/P
17 Jan
17 Jan
9:09 a.m.
I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis? Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis on this list--and they were a major force.
--Chuck
9:13 a.m.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I find it curious that what seems to be collected in
the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis? Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis on this list--and they were a major force.
--Chuck
I think it's simply an availability thing ...I have manuals for a lot of
the non DEC minis, have to settle for simH, where am I going to get a
Varian?
9:36 a.m.
On Jan 17, 2017, at 12:13 PM, william degnan
<billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Yes, they are bound to be harder to find. But with decent manuals you can add them to
SIMH. It's not that hard. Then it becomes a matter of finding software.
Things seem to be worse yet with non-US computers. You see very little mention of those,
and (apart from BESM) nothing in SIMH. UK computers get mentioned once in a while, other
parts of Europe even less. As a former Dutchman, I've wanted to find Philips computer
documentation -- it seems to be non-existent. The first machine I did significant work on
was a Philips PR8000; the grand total coverage of that machine on the WWW appears to be a
one line entry in a book listing computers manufactured in the 1970s. Similarly, I know
Siemens made minicomputers, because I used a precision plotter driven by one of those -- a
machine used around that time to draw postage stamp and paper money designs for the Dutch
government. Haven't seen that one either.
It may be that some of those computers aren't all that interesting, in the sense of
not offering any unusual capabilities or architecture wrinkles. But that's certainly
not true for all of them; the PR8000, for example, has an approach to interrupts
that's quite efficient and one I haven't seen since.
paul
I find it curious that what seems to be collected
in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?...
I think it's simply an availability thing ...I have manuals for a lot of
the non DEC minis, have to settle for simH, where am I going to get a
Varian? 
10:07 a.m.
On 2017-Jan-17, at 9:13 AM, william degnan wrote:
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Right here (satire):
www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-620-L-100-COMPUTER-620L100-62…
I'd love to collect also-ran minis, I find the variety and architectural variations
and forgotten history interesting.
But as you say: availability. And then the peripherals and software to make complete
systems are even rarer.
And documentation.
And on the rare occasions when they do show up, nowadays you get silly prices like this
one.
That unit has been on ebay for many months, maybe near or over a year now.
I think it started out at 10,000 or some such.
I find it curious that what seems to be collected
in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis? Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis on this list--and they were a major force.
--Chuck
I think it's simply an availability thing ...I have manuals for a lot of
the non DEC minis, have to settle for simH, where am I going to get a
Varian? 
9:25 a.m.
On 01/17/2017 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I find it curious that what seems to be collected in
the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
I had a Varian 620F a long time ago. It was a
whole bunch
of wire-wrap boards. It sort of tried to work, but was very
flaky. I was able to store some words into the core memory,
but it seemed like every couple minutes it would zero out a
word or two (I guess it was failing to write back the
contents after the destructive readout.) Without
schematics, it was impossible to do much about it.
Jon
11:50 a.m.
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
On 01/17/2017 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a Varian 620 to
generate the visuals. The display was capable of addressing 1024 points
of light and that's how the runways and airport outline were drawn.
Pretty neat stuff. Here's some pics of the system that ran the sim:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
I find it curious that what seems to be collected
in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
I had a Varian 620F a long time ago. It was a
whole bunch of wire-wrap
boards. It sort of tried to work, but was very flaky. I was able to store
some words into the core memory, but it seemed like every couple minutes it
would zero out a word or two (I guess it was failing to write back the
contents after the destructive readout.) Without schematics, it was
impossible to do much about it.
12:02 p.m.
On Jan 17, 2017, at 2:50 PM, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
Nice.
I saw (but never used) a Varian 16 bit mini in college. Forgot the model number; I used
to have the handbook but it seems to have been lost. It was used because of its
microprogramming capabilities. The control panel was unusual: lights and switches
basically, but the switches were membrane push-buttons. So the entire front panel was a
smooth surface.
paul
On 01/17/2017 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a Varian 620 to generate the visuals.
The display was capable of addressing 1024 points of light and that's how the runways
and airport outline were drawn. Pretty neat stuff. Here's some pics of the system
that ran the sim:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html I find it curious that what seems to be collected
in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
I had a Varian 620F a long time ago. It was a
whole bunch of wire-wrap boards. It sort of tried to work, but was very flaky. I was
able to store some words into the core memory, but it seemed like every couple minutes it
would zero out a word or two (I guess it was failing to write back the contents after the
destructive readout.) Without schematics, it was impossible to do much about it. 
2:48 p.m.
New subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [eBay warning]
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Oddly I was shown this eBay ad when looking at Al's latest post. Don't
know if anyone else spotted it.
Machine looks nice but far, far, out of my price range:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-620-L-100-COMPUTER-620…
mcl
2:52 p.m.
New subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [eBay warning]
sorry, I see that someone else had already posted this.
I'm only about 100 messages behind on the list.
mcl
2:52 p.m.
New subject: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [eBay warning]
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Mark Linimon <linimon at lonesome.com> wrote:
Been on ebay for year(s)
Does anyone
collect Varian minis?
Oddly I was shown this eBay ad when looking at Al's latest post. Don't
know if anyone else spotted it.
Machine looks nice but far, far, out of my price range:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-
620-L-100-COMPUTER-620L100-620-L100/311466122329?_trksid=
p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%
3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40757%26meid%3D1f25f0b7eb4847ad960f4d83c951
daa4%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D351959392585
mcl
7:40 p.m.
On 01/17/2017 01:50 PM, geneb wrote:
I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a
Varian 620 to generate the visuals. The display was
capable of addressing 1024 points of light and that's how
the runways and airport outline were drawn. Pretty neat
stuff. Here's some pics of the system that ran the sim:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html
Was that a McDonnell Vital system? That's where the Varian
I had came from. Vital II had stroke writing and variable
beam width, ideal for painting the runway, stripes, numbers,
etc.
Yeah, I think the rack cabinet I have matches the one in
your photo.
Jon
18 Jan
18 Jan
5:08 a.m.
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
On 01/17/2017 01:50 PM, geneb wrote:
It's a Vital I. I don't recall a McDonnell branding though. I _think_
the 727-100 sim was built by Conductron-Missouri, which was the same
company that build the 737-200 that was located in the next room.
I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a Varian 620 to generate
the visuals. The display was capable of addressing 1024 points of light
and that's how the runways and airport outline were drawn. Pretty neat
stuff. Here's some pics of the system that ran the sim:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html
Was that a McDonnell Vital system? That's where the Varian I had came from.
Vital II had stroke writing and variable beam width, ideal for painting the
runway, stripes, numbers, etc.
Yeah, I think the rack cabinet I have matches the one
in your photo.
Nice!
The sad thing is, both sims are gone. Simulator Training went bankrupt
due to the aviation industry disruption caused by 9/11. A guy from
Boeing/Alteon showed up with a corporate credit card. I didn't have
the resources to bid against him. :( The 727 went for $1200 and the $737 went
for $1500. Both sims were fully operational and both were purposefully
destroyed after purchase.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
9:57 a.m.
On 01/18/2017 07:08 AM, geneb wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
Conductron-Missouri was an outfit that may have been started
by ex-McDonnell people, and did a large portion of their
business supplying electronic systems to McDonnell. It was
later bought by McDonnell, and became McDonnell Douglas
Electronics Co.
On 01/17/2017 01:50 PM, geneb wrote:
It's a Vital I. I don't recall a McDonnell branding
though. I _think_ the 727-100 sim was built by
Conductron-Missouri, which was the same company that build
the 737-200 that was located in the next room.
I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a
Varian 620 to generate the visuals. The display was
capable of addressing 1024 points of light and that's
how the runways and airport outline were drawn. Pretty
neat stuff. Here's some pics of the system that ran the
sim:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html
Was that a McDonnell Vital system? That's where the
Varian I had came from. Vital II had stroke writing and
variable beam width, ideal for painting the runway,
stripes, numbers, etc.
The sad thing is, both sims are gone. Simulator Training
went bankrupt due to the aviation industry disruption
caused by 9/11. A guy from Boeing/Alteon showed up with a
corporate credit card. I didn't have the resources to bid
against him. :( The 727 went for $1200 and the $737 went
for $1500. Both sims were fully operational and both were
purposefully destroyed after purchase.
Wow, kind of surprised they were concerned about that.
Especially a 727 sim, who the heck is still flying THOSE??
A friend of mine got 4 mirrors out of Vital II sims, and has
one on a large X-Y display. He wrote a sim program that ran
on a Data General Nova clone (he built it himself, not a
commercial clone). It is no longer working, some stuff went
up in smoke last time he turned it on. But, would be great
to put a giant LCD monitor on those mirrors and use it with
FlightGear.
Jon
10:45 a.m.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
Conductron-Missouri was an outfit that may have been
started by ex-McDonnell
people, and did a large portion of their business supplying electronic
systems to McDonnell. It was later bought by McDonnell, and became McDonnell
Douglas Electronics Co.
Ahh, ok.
Wow, kind of surprised they were concerned about that.
Especially a 727 sim,
who the heck is still flying THOSE??
They're pretty common in South America and some 3rd world countries. I
suspect it was 90% Boeing being a dick and 10% because they could.
A friend of mine got 4 mirrors out of Vital II sims,
and has one on a large
X-Y display. He wrote a sim program that ran on a Data General Nova clone
(he built it himself, not a commercial clone). It is no longer working, some
stuff went up in smoke last time he turned it on. But, would be great to put
a giant LCD monitor on those mirrors and use it with FlightGear.
It would be interesting to try if nothing else. The LCD may not throw
enough light out to make it readable in a WAC. Not sure.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
7:21 p.m.
On 01/18/2017 12:45 PM, geneb wrote:
It would work FINE! His sim was a box, so you were in quite
dark conditions. Some LCDs can actually get pretty bright,
and his CRT was not unusually bright. So, I'm sure it would
work fine. These are SMALL mirrors, not for the giant
wall-size displays, and direct-view.
So, the CRT is facing up, the mirror above it, and you just
look into the mirror through about a 2' x 2' aperture.
Perfect for a home simulator.
Jon
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
Well, the aviation community is just INSANE over liability.
And, since the outfit that makes the wing marker lights gets
sued many times when a light plane goes down, even though
the cause was pilot error, engine failure, instrument
failure, running out of fuel, etc. they STILL get sued.
So, I can imagine maybe some plane goes down, and they'd get
sued because the pilot trained on an uncertified simulator
that was cobbled together after a surplus purchase.
Wow, kind of surprised they were concerned about
that.
Especially a 727 sim, who the heck is still flying THOSE??
They're pretty common in South America and some 3rd world
countries. I suspect it was 90% Boeing being a dick and
10% because they could.
A friend of
mine got 4 mirrors out of Vital II sims, and
has one on a large X-Y display. He wrote a sim program
that ran on a Data General Nova clone (he built it
himself, not a commercial clone). It is no longer
working, some stuff went up in smoke last time he turned
it on. But, would be great to put a giant LCD monitor on
those mirrors and use it with FlightGear.
It would be interesting to try if nothing else. The LCD
may not throw enough light out to make it readable in a
WAC. Not sure.
19 Jan
19 Jan
7:30 a.m.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
If there's only one mirror, he's missing most of it then. A Wide Angle
Collimator (what they call the "single channel" displays) has a
partially-reflective first surface mirror at a 45 degree angle (the beam
splitter) and a special curved mirror directly in front of it. The
display is positioned above the beam splitter. The light path goes down
Well, the aviation community is just INSANE over
liability. And, since the
outfit that makes the wing marker lights gets sued many times when a light
plane goes down, even though the cause was pilot error, engine failure,
instrument failure, running out of fuel, etc. they STILL get sued.
So, I can imagine maybe some plane goes down, and they'd get sued because the
pilot trained on an uncertified simulator that was cobbled together after a
surplus purchase.
While I agree that aviation is fed on by lawyers, that wouldn't have been
a reaons for Boeing's actions in this case.
The simulator would have had to have been re-certified by the FAA (and they
might not have grandfathered it a 2nd time) in order for any pilot to have
logged time in it. No instructor pilot that's rated ATP or higher for
that type would instruct on it without that certification.
It would be
interesting to try if nothing else. The LCD may not throw
enough light out to make it readable in a WAC. Not sure.
It would work FINE! His
sim was a box, so you were in quite dark conditions.
Some LCDs can actually get pretty bright, and his CRT was not unusually
bright. So, I'm sure it would work fine. These are SMALL mirrors, not for
the giant wall-size displays, and direct-view.
So, the CRT is facing up, the mirror above it, and you just look into the
mirror through about a 2' x 2' aperture. Perfect for a home simulator. from the crt, is reflected off the beam splitter into
the mirror and then
straight at the viewpoint for the user (passing through the
beam splitter
again). That process robs 50-75% of the light that goes into it from the
CRT. That's why WACs are really only good for night time visuals.
Here's an example of what a four channel WAC looks like:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/737sim_page4.html
Take a look at the "Go Collimated or Go Home" link in my sig. I designed
a 737-sized one of those for a friend. He built it and uses it with
FlightGear.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
9:13 a.m.
On 01/19/2017 09:30 AM, geneb wrote:
If there's only one mirror, he's missing most of it then.
A Wide Angle Collimator (what they call the "single
channel" displays) has a partially-reflective first
surface mirror at a 45 degree angle (the beam splitter)
and a special curved mirror directly in front of it.
Front, as in toward the front
of the aircraft. Yes, I'd
forgotten about the beam splitter. But, I'm sure he DOES
have that, too.
The display is positioned above the beam splitter.
In his case, for mechanical reasons, he put the display
below the beam splitter/curved mirror.
The light path goes down from the crt, is reflected
off
the beam splitter into the mirror and then straight at the
viewpoint for the user (passing through the beam splitter
again). That process robs 50-75% of the light that goes
into it from the CRT. That's why WACs are really only
good for night time visuals.
Well, once you are in the closed, dark environment, you
could do daytime visuals but at reduced light levels, should
be FINE for a home sim.
Take a look at the "Go Collimated or Go Home" link in my
sig. I designed a 737-sized one of those for a friend.
He built it and uses it with FlightGear.
Ahh, yes, YOU are the guy with the F-15 front end! Yes, we
know OF you!
And, yes, FlightGear is completely amazing.
Jon
17 Jan
17 Jan
10 a.m.
New subject: Varian, GA was: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?
On 1/17/2017 9:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I find it curious that what seems to be collected in
the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis? Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis on this list--and they were a major force.
--Chuck
I have a Varian 620 L and 620I but have never tried to power them up.
Also have a GA SPC-16/80, SPC-12, and 18/30.
I would really love to play with the 18/30 but have very little
documentation on it. No hardware docs at all. It's
compatible with the IBM 1800 and 1130, both of which I have, so would
great to get running. Some photos of it
are on my web site. http://dvq.com/oldcomp/minis.htm
If anyone has documentation on the 18/30 please contact me (or get it to
bitsavers).
Bob
--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org
10:20 a.m.
New subject: Varian, GA was: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?
let me see what I can get to on it. we got a ton of stuff from the stuff we bought in
Germany
On 1/17/17 10:00 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
I would really love to play with the 18/30 but have
very little documentation on it. No hardware docs at all. It's
compatible with the IBM 1800 and 1130, both of which I have, so would great to get
running. Some photos of it
are on my web site. http://dvq.com/oldcomp/minis.htm
If anyone has documentation on the 18/30 please contact me (or get it to bitsavers).
Bob
18 Jan
18 Jan
1:43 a.m.
New subject: Varian, GA was: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Al Kossow wrote:
let me see what I can get to on it. we got a ton of
stuff from the stuff
we bought in Germany
That is where our GA stuff comes from ;-)
So probably you could have manuals and software for the SPC-16.
Christian
7:24 a.m.
New subject: Varian, GA was: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?
good. I'm glad it wasn't recycled.
On 1/18/17 1:43 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Al Kossow wrote:
let me see what I can get to on it. we got a ton
of stuff from the stuff we bought in Germany
That is where our GA stuff comes from ;-)
So probably you could have manuals and software for the SPC-16.
Christian
17 Jan
17 Jan
10:18 a.m.
On 1/17/17 9:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
I had a few 620's, the most interesting was the 18-bit version.
No software to speak of for them. I even talked to the guy who ended up
supporting them down in LA when Sperry spit them out. The only thing he
had was a diagnostic tape.
Probably the most interesting Varian system I had was an integrated data
acquistion system they built with a fixed head disk and point plot display.
I'm hoping the person who bought it is able to save the software which in
theory is still in core an on the disk.
--
We have some software at CHM for the General Automation 18/30, which is a
little more interesting since it was very similar architecturally to the IBM
1800. The name comes from it being a cross between the 1800 and 1130.
--
I recovered some software for the Computer Automation museum a while ago
http://www.computer-automation-museum.org/ca/
don't know if there's been much activity there.
--
Primarily, it seems the activity has been centering around people working on
various simulators for minis in SIMH.
10:58 a.m.
General automation - yes. I have a zebra 1750, 2820, and 3000.
Microdata M6000
I have lots of DG gear as well... but that's starting to get sent out here
and there :)
J
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 11:09 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you
own? [Tek 4132]
I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer area
seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis? Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis on this list--and they were a major force.
--Chuck
11:42 a.m.
I had a DG Nova (guess one could call it a Nova 1) Loaned it to who I
though was a friend, he vanished one day. The Nova showed up at a
local surplus store but even though I had proof it was mine, I had the
release letter from the company I worked for and got it from, he would
not even sell it to me.
Had one maybe two unused development boards and an extender, and a few
tapes, one being BASIC.
Interesting instruction format
-pete
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I find it curious that what seems to be collected in
the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis? Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis on this list--and they were a major force.
--Chuck
18 Jan
18 Jan
1:36 a.m.
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I find it curious that what seems to be collected in
the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.
Me too :-)
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Yes! We have a couple of Varian 620/f (some with expansion boxes)
Or General Automation?
Yes!! We have an SPC-16/65 that I really would like to restore, but I lack
a) all kind of documents/schematics/software and b) the memory board. I
could probably build a replacement for the memory board if I had the
technical documentation for the machine.
We also have the FPs and boards of two GA16-2?? (I know that someone has
the CPU boxes and racks where these came from but I don't recall who it
was).
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis? Heck,
I don't read much
about DG minis on this list--and they were a major force.
Dietz MINCAL 523; a micro-programmed 19 bit minicomputer with foil
micro-/macroprogram ROM (micro and macro programs share the same
address and data bus) and a mixture of sign/magnitude and twos-complement
arithmetic. It was *great* fun to reverse enginere just *everything* from
the confuse backplane wiring (no bus) to recreating the mnemonics and
disassembling the monitor and microcode.
Christian
11:32 p.m.
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chuck
Guzis
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 9:09 AM
...
I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer area
seems to be gear of major brands.
Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis? Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis on this list--and they were a major force
I collect minor-brand scientific and industrial minis as well as DEC, DG,
and HP: Varian 620/I and 620/L, GA SPC-12, Computer Automation LSI-2 and
Alpha-16, Honeywell Series 16. Also DG Nova stuff, including a couple of
complete systems.
--Bill
14 Jan
14 Jan
7:20 p.m.
On 01/14/2017 09:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
The 32016 was not clocked very fast nor did it have any pipelines to
speak of. I needed all the help it could
get and lots of ram plus fast ram (no wait states) helped some. If
ther ewas a MMU it ran a bit better as the
OS didn't have to swap to the then rather slow disks with small read
write caches.
If the 32016 had a second generation, some tweaks and faster process it
might have had hope but like 68K
and Z8000 it was good idea but late. The 8088 and 8086 had that space
and were generally even then
capable of going faster.
Generally any machine that did virtualization or swapping was at the
mercy of the disks of the day
as some drives and their controllers were slow.
Allison
On 01/14/2017 05:40 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:
>
>> From: "Rick Bensene" <rickb at bensene.com>
>>> - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation using a National 32016 CPU and a
>>> 4.2bsd port called UTek
>>>
> Jon wrote:
>
>> Gee, how does it perform? I built a clone of a Logical
>> Microcomputer Co. 32016 Multibus system and got it working.
>> But, it was glacially slow! I did have some memory that was likely
>> a little slower than the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow.
>> But, firing up certain things >like editors was just maddening.
>> And, I'm not talking about Emacs, just vi. I eventually got a
>> MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, that DID have a cache to speed
>> >up the memory, but it was quite a difference.
> Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad. By today's standards,
> yeah, it's pretty darned slow.
> Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on
> it. It runs rogue pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people
> to play it at once.
>
> The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps. Without additional
> RAM, there's only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB
> makes it incredibly slow. There isn't any external cache.
That can be
because of swapping for most everything to disk. uVAX that
is...
Ahh, that may be part of the difference. I can't
remember how much
memory I had on it. I would not be surprised if it was as tiny as 128
KB, or maybe 256 KB. I'll check my schematics to see how many address
lines were implemented.
My uVAXII used to run a Notes file and 5 regular users including me with
DECwindows (it was a GPX).
Speed compared to the latest single user 3ghz box does not compare but
unlike many PC its oS
does not eat its feet when stressed.
MicroVAX tricks for speed were things like two disk controllers one
purely for swapping with say a RD31 (they were fast
for their size) and the OS and users on separate disks using the second
controller.
The only pokey machine was the uVAX2000 as it was maxed at 12meg of ram
ad the only disk controller was
not fast nor pretty i that it was very dependent of the OS to handle the
scatter gather in memory as the disk only
had something like a 16K memory window for DMA. Not the CPUs fault,
just minimization of hardware has costs.
It's fun
to fire it up and just relive the days when I was on cloud
nine to have my own personal Unix workstation that I built myself
from parts.
If mine hadn't performed so poorly, I might have continued to use it,
and upgraded parts.
I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it. These were likely early
ports for the 32016, and may have had poor implementations for the MMU
for instance.
Jon
15 Jan
15 Jan
8:23 a.m.
On 1/14/17 7:20 PM, allison wrote:
If the 32016 had a second generation
It had several generations. The 32532 saw some use in laser printers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx
10:06 a.m.
On 15 Jan 2017, at 17:23 , Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 1/14/17 7:20 PM, allison wrote:
There was an MMU-less version of the 32532 (32gx32, I think) which was more common in
embedded applications. The 32532 was used in the PC532 ? I'm sometimes regretting
letting mine go.
If the 32016 had a second generation
It had several generations. The 32532 saw some use in laser printers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx>
11:05 a.m.
On 01/15/2017 11:23 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 1/14/17 7:20 PM, allison wrote:
I know but effectively they have been few and limited, and long
overdue. 68K and 80186 and 286 were
more widely accepted till the MIPS V ARM era. NSC was not known for
CPUs as a widely accepted
source as they tended to be either odd like the SC/MP series or sole
source (NSC800). They
were good ideas people but the designs they cooked were not that great.
If they had been
allowed to do the PDP-11 or VAX architecture which was the original plan
maybe.
The 80s had cooked out a lot of very interesting CPUs but many of the
sources were not dominant,
sole sourced or too obscure.
Allison
If the 32016 had a second generation
It
had several generations. The 32532 saw some use in laser printers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx
16 Jan
16 Jan
2:56 p.m.
On 01/15/2017 08:23, Al Kossow wrote:
On 1/14/17 7:20 PM, allison wrote:
This kind of "buries the lead," however -- the NS32532 inspired the
pc532 by George Scolaro and Dave Rand at the very end of the 1980s. This
very capable and fairly complex design was freely available, right down
to the Gerber files and PAL equations.
Dave and George had previously worked on a PC/AT coprocessor board using
the 32016 for Definicon. The pc532 eventually supported MINIX, Mach, and
NetBSD ports. Phil Budne and some others on this list participated - I
could only afford to cheer from the sidelines...
NatSemi reworked various 32k chip designs into versions for embedded
use, eventually. The 32cg16, based on the 32016, had a healthy run in
printers for several years before the 32gx32 came along.
Off the top of my head, I can only recall the pc532 and the later model
of ETH's Ceres workstations as examples of "single-user" machines using
the '532. And of course if anybody wants to get rid of one, I'd be happy
to oblige... ;)
Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC532
http://www.netbsd.org/ports/pc532
http://cpu-ns32k.net/index.html
--S.
If the 32016 had a second generation
It had several generations. The 32532 saw some use in laser printers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx
15 Jan
15 Jan
8:20 a.m.
On 1/14/17 6:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it.
Do you still have Xenix?
That reminds me I need to dig out the Genix sources I have.
There were a couple of companies that made PC cards with the chipset on it, and
once company that made a Q-Bus co-processor that used an 11/23 runing RSX-11M
as an I/O processor.
4:35 p.m.
On 01/15/2017 10:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 1/14/17 6:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
I don't think so, but I'll look a bit more. I may
have
overwritten those with Genix.
I do have the 24 or so Genix install disks. These are 5.25"
floppies. I doubt I have anything that will read them, and
have no idea what condition they are in. The do look clean,
so no serious degradation.
Jon
I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it.
Do you still have Xenix?
8:15 a.m.
I dug out the boards that I have to dump the eproms, and a while back put up what I had
for schematics on bitsavers.
On 1/14/17 3:40 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:
From: "Rick Bensene" <rickb at
bensene.com>
> - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation using a National 32016 CPU and a
> 4.2bsd port called UTek
>
Jon wrote:
Gee, how does it perform? I built a clone of a
Logical Microcomputer Co. 32016 Multibus system and got it working.
But, it was glacially slow! I did have some memory that was likely a little slower than
the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow. But, firing up certain things >like
editors was just maddening. And, I'm not talking about Emacs, just vi. I eventually
got a MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, that DID have a cache to speed >up the
memory, but it was quite a difference.
Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad. By today's standards, yeah,
it's pretty darned slow.
Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on it. It runs rogue
pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people to play it at once.
The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps. Without additional RAM, there's
only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB makes it incredibly slow. There
isn't any external cache.
It's fun to fire it up and just relive the days when I was on cloud nine to have my
own personal Unix workstation that I built myself from parts.
-Rick
2894
days inactive
2899
days old
41 comments
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