15 Aug
1999
15 Aug
'99
12:06 p.m.
Eric Smith wrote:
William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> wrote:
I've seen scientific and computer equipment from the 60's and 70's using
a variety of "tubes" as indicator devices, everything from simple neon
bulbs to decatron counters and storage CRT's.
One might argue that a neon bulb or a decatron isn't properly a "tube"
(they certainly aren't "valves" because they don't have a control grid
like a triode), but they are non-linear devices that are capable of
storing (and displaying) state information and performing simple logic
functions.
Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just
an anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? Is a voltage regulator tube (like
the venerable OA2) called a "valve"?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
The lights ("blinkenlights") on some
early machines (and even a few not
so early machines) were tiny tubes, as well. A bit more simple than a CRT...
Yes, but those weren't particularly "bizarre". They were just common
incandescent bulbs. 
15 Aug
15 Aug
1:19 p.m.
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4:27 p.m.
Upon the date 11:19 PM 8/15/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like:
Indeed, or like a hose bib of which you would attach a garden hose or the
device mounted on your bathtub either of which allow you to control the
flow of water. Fleming evidently thought of his invention as a one-way flow
controlling device, or *valve*, except electron flow was the medium
controlled. Hence, my suspicion he chose the word valve based on that
function his invention performed. Later, with a third element called a
control grid which DeForest purportedly invented in conjunction with his
Audion patent of 1906, one could then truly control the quantity of flow of
electrons through that one-way device called a valve.
To get this even _nearly_ on topic, the transistors in today's IC's are
like "valves", so our computers have millions of little "valves" in
them
(how's that for a stretched topic? :)
One might
argue that a neon bulb or a decatron isn't properly a "tube"
(they certainly aren't "valves" because they don't have a control grid
like a triode), but they are non-linear devices that are capable of
storing (and displaying) state information and performing simple logic
functions.
Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just
an anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? Is a voltage regulator tube (like
the venerable OA2) called a "valve"?
Hmmm...
Rectifiers are called 'valves' (so we'd talk of a EZ81 valve or a 5U4
valve). I guess you think of them like the one-way valve on a tyre :-).
I think we'd probably call an OA2 a 'valve' as well, although talking
about 'stabiliser tubes' or 'cold cathode tubes' seems to be common usage
in UK books as well (as is 'stabiliser valves' and 'cold cathode
valves').
We certainly talk about 'counting tubes' when refering to dekatrons,
trochatrons, etc. Never seen them called 'counting valves'. And CRTs are
certainly 'tubes' over here.
Probably the USA expression "tube" was adopted to differentiate between a
'controlled' valve (diode, triode, tetrode, etc.) and these more recent
thermionic emission devices you speak of. But I would have called a CRT a
Cathode Ray Valve (CRV) because of its function. However, V. Zworykin had
perfected in the USA that device which presents an image on a phosphor
screen mounted on a glass envelope under vacuum which we all call the CRT.
Hence the "T" for Tube in CRT. Interesting how the region in which an
invention is made can affect the invention's name.
Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
16 Aug
16 Aug
8:40 a.m.
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10:20 a.m.
Upon the date 06:40 PM 8/16/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like:
Other things that are always 'tubes' in the UK :
Photomultipliers
TV camera devices (vidicons, image orthicons, etc)
Geiger-Muller detectors
There's no arguement needed. Recall I used the word "perfected".
We certainly talk about 'counting tubes' when
refering to dekatrons,
trochatrons, etc. Never seen them called 'counting valves'. And CRTs are
certainly 'tubes' over here.
Probably the USA expression "tube" was adopted to differentiate between a
'controlled' valve (diode, triode, tetrode, etc.) and these more recent thermionic emission devices you speak of. But I
would have called a CRT a
Cathode Ray Valve (CRV) because of its function. However, V. Zworykin had
perfected in the USA that device which presents an image on a phosphor
screen mounted on a glass envelope under vacuum which we all call the CRT.
Except you could argue that was a development of work done by Braun
(Germany) which itself came from work done by J. J. Thompson (England).
Incidentally, some old books (American) on radio refer to triodes as
'Audion Bulbs'.
Those must be books dating before, say, 1915 or so. Or written in 1930 by a
then-oldtimer who doesn't like change :)
Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
11:26 a.m.
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12:30 p.m.
There's no arguement needed. Recall I used the
word "perfected".
Apparently, Braun knew these things were useful, but they probably never
left the lab.
Those must be books dating before, say, 1915 or so. Or
written in 1930 by a
then-oldtimer who doesn't like change :)
Or Lee DeForest himself.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
15 Aug
15 Aug
1:28 p.m.
On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote:
Eric Smith wrote:
Well, it functions like a check valve.
William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> wrote:
I've seen scientific and computer equipment from the 60's and 70's using
a variety of "tubes" as indicator devices, everything from simple neon
bulbs to decatron counters and storage CRT's.
One might argue that a neon bulb or a decatron isn't properly a "tube"
(they certainly aren't "valves" because they don't have a control grid
like a triode), but they are non-linear devices that are capable of
storing (and displaying) state information and performing simple logic
functions.
Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just
an anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? The lights ("blinkenlights") on some
early machines (and even a few not
so early machines) were tiny tubes, as well. A bit more simple than a CRT...
Yes, but those weren't particularly "bizarre". They were just common
incandescent bulbs. Is a voltage
regulator tube (like
the venerable OA2) called a "valve"?
I cannot think of a good analogy for that one, unless it would be a
pressure relief valve.
- don
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
3:49 p.m.
Upon the date 05:06 PM 8/15/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com said
something like:
Well, I'm not a 'UKer' but just a humble electronic communications
historian (like Bill Donzelli, who also knows this answer) who has a strong
interest in tube (valve) history. Back in 1908, Sir John Ambrose Fleming,
an English electrical engineer, patented the Thermionic Valve. It was based
on work he began in 1904 investigating the "Edison Effect", of which he and
Edison had discovered earlier in 1889 in USA, in order to make a rectifying
valve. This valve is a two element diode. On the other hand, Lee deForest
patented the Audion which is a three element valve, or "tube" in USA terms,
in 1906. Controversy had always surrounded DeForest, however he held fast
to his contention that he had developed the Audion *independantly* with
regard to Fleming's work begun earlier.
Yes, a two element vacuum thermionic diode can therefore be called a "valve".
Ya got a good question about the 0A2 and its kindred though Tim. I would
imagine by conventional wisdom it also would also be called a valve in the
UK. Tony? Know the usual expression for VR tubes? (VR valves?)
Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
Eric Smith wrote:
>William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> wrote:
>> The lights ("blinkenlights") on some early machines (and even a few not
>> so early machines) were tiny tubes, as well. A bit more simple than a
CRT...
Yes, but those weren't particularly "bizarre". They were just common
incandescent bulbs.
I've seen scientific and computer equipment from the 60's and 70's using
a variety of "tubes" as indicator devices, everything from simple neon
bulbs to decatron counters and storage CRT's.
One might argue that a neon bulb or a decatron isn't properly a "tube"
(they certainly aren't "valves" because they don't have a control grid
like a triode), but they are non-linear devices that are capable of
storing (and displaying) state information and performing simple logic
functions.
Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just
an anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? Is a voltage regulator tube (like
the venerable OA2) called a "valve"?
16 Aug
16 Aug
8:31 a.m.
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