26 Nov
2016
26 Nov
'16
8:39 p.m.
Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to
disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex
ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the
SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any?
In the early to mid-1980s, the 8X300 was a good choice for hard disk
controllers, because all instructions took 250ns, and a single instruction
could read an I/O port or RAM location, shift and mask, and write another
I/O port or RAM location. At the time, no MOS microprocessor was even close
to that.
26 Nov
26 Nov
8:55 p.m.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which
I've used to
disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex
ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the
SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any?
The Andromeda WDC11 MFM floppy/hard disk controller uses an 8X305. It
emulates an RX02, and an RK05 or RL01/RL02 or RP02.
I have one. I'm not sure which flavor it is. I've never gotten around
to trying to use it.
11:10 p.m.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which
I've used to
disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex
ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the
SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any?
It will take me some time to check, but I seem to remember an ISA card,
not a disk controller, with one on. Possibly a 3720-type interface (I
think there
was a single BNC socket on the bracket, and it's not ethernet).
There's an 8X300 on the hard disk controller (Philips X1215 drive) for the
Philips P854 computer. But I suspect that is too obscure even for this
list.
-tony
27 Nov
27 Nov
12:48 a.m.
On 27.11.2016 08:10, Tony Duell wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Eric Smith
<spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
Why too obscure ?
The Philips P851 mini also uses a 8X300 / 8X330 combo for floppy & HD controller.
Picture of this controller and dumps of proms are on :
ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001
If there is a chance to have a good pic of the P851 frontpanel I would appriciate it !
Too bad the 851 CPU uses ASIC for datapaths & control logic, so I cannot get this
system up and running since it misses the control one.
Jos
Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler,
which I've used to
disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex
ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the
SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any?
It will take me some time to check, but I seem to remember an ISA card,
not a disk controller, with one on. Possibly a 3720-type interface (I
think there
was a single BNC socket on the bracket, and it's not ethernet).
There's an 8X300 on the hard disk controller (Philips X1215 drive) for the
Philips P854 computer. But I suspect that is too obscure even for this
list.
6:57 a.m.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:48 AM, jos <jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch> wrote:
How many P854 machines have you come across :-)
On 27.11.2016 08:10, Tony Duell wrote:
There's an
8X300 on the hard disk controller (Philips X1215 drive) for the
Philips P854 computer. But I suspect that is too obscure even for this
list.
Why too obscure ?
The Philips P851 mini also uses a 8X300 / 8X330 combo for floppy & HD
controller.
The P851 and P854 use the same bus, essentially (the P854 has memory
management logic in the CPU, so has more address lines) and many
I/O boards will work in both machines. So I thought this was going to be
the same board
Picture of this controller and dumps of proms are on
:
ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001
But it isn't -- quite. I wonder if I have a very early version of it, as the
only info i have on it is a photocopy of a hand-drawn block diagram.
My P854 has the normal 2-board set for the floppy controller, I have
an indentical one in the P851. Whether the hard disk controller could
handle floppies, or whether that was added to later versions I don't
know, I do have the same headers at the front edge of the board (the
50 pin one is for the X1215 hard drive which alas I don't have).
If there is a chance to have a good pic of the P851 frontpanel I would
appriciate it !
I can take one. You do mean P851 and not P854 here, I assume (I have
both).
Too bad the 851 CPU uses ASIC for datapaths & control logic, so I cannot get
this system up and running since it misses the control one.
The PLANET (PLA NETwork)? The one that handles microcode branches? I only
have one spare (and 4 spare SPALUs (Scratch Pad and Arithmetic Logic Unit) --
the 4-bit bit-slice for the data path) and I really need to keep it as
a spare for
my P851.
-tony
5:43 p.m.
I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server from dca on ebay today to dump
http://www.ebay.com/itm/192014611480
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262721065197
On 11/28/16 5:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
IRMA card
I'd forgotten about that. The later ones designed the 8X305 out. It's
interesting in that the firmware gets loaded into RAM, rather than running
for PROM.
5:45 p.m.
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server from
dca on ebay today to
dump
Cool! I've only ever used the 8-bit IRMA II that loaded the firmware into
RAM. At the time I was working for a company with multiple IBM mainframes
and an army of COBOL programmers, though I was in a team of three
programmers using Turbo Pascal on IBM XTs. I didn't ever use the
mainframes.
5:54 p.m.
We have little in the CHM collection coax or twinax related, which I'm trying to fix.
One of the reasons I got the Chameleon 32 and the MTX 1174 recently.
On 11/28/16 5:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server
from dca on ebay today to
dump
Cool! I've only ever used the 8-bit IRMA II that loaded the firmware into
RAM. At the time I was working for a company with multiple IBM mainframes
and an army of COBOL programmers, though I was in a team of three
programmers using Turbo Pascal on IBM XTs. I didn't ever use the
mainframes.
29 Nov
29 Nov
7:42 a.m.
On 11/28/2016 5:54 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
We have little in the CHM collection coax or twinax
related, which I'm trying to fix.
One of the reasons I got the Chameleon 32 and the MTX 1174 recently.
On 11/28/16 5:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>> I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print
server from dca on ebay today to
>> dump
> > Cool! I've only ever used the 8-bit
IRMA II that loaded the firmware into
> RAM. At the time I was working for a company with multiple IBM mainframes
> and an army of COBOL programmers, though I was in a team of three
> programmers using Turbo Pascal on IBM XTs. I didn't ever use the
> mainframes.
Here is an IRMA-II which was suggested by one of AL's auctions.
As Eric
says, no roms, so firmware would have to run in ram.
DCA-IRMA2-8-BIT-ISA-BOARD-INTERNAL-CARD-000008-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-S167/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371801048053
9:16 a.m.
On 11/29/16 7:42 AM, jim stephens wrote:
Here is an IRMA-II which was suggested by one of AL's auctions. As Eric says, no
roms, so firmware would have to run in
ram.
DCA-IRMA2-8-BIT-ISA-BOARD-INTERNAL-CARD-000008-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-S167/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371801048053
I have one of those, but didn't think it would be very interesting unless the driver
could be found
that had the code to upload into it.
10:28 a.m.
I don't think that I've seen an 8X30x board with more than an 8X300/305
and perhaps an 8X330 FDC and various transceivers, memory and other logic.
How many boards used other specialized members of the product family,
such as 8X384, 8X310, 8X320, 8X360 or 8X355?
--Chuck
11:11 a.m.
On 2016-Nov-29, at 10:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I don't think that I've seen an 8X30x board
with more than an 8X300/305
and perhaps an 8X330 FDC and various transceivers, memory and other logic.
How many boards used other specialized members of the product family,
such as 8X384, 8X310, 8X320, 8X360 or 8X355?
Admittedly I could go find my copy of the Osborne 70s microprocessors book to answer this
question but I'm here and the book is somewhere, and I suspect one or two people here
can answer this without pulling out the book - is the 8X300 the 'unusual',
proto-DSP device discussed in a chapter of the Osborne book?
12:29 p.m.
On 11/29/2016 11:11 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Admittedly I could go find my copy of the Osborne 70s
microprocessors
book to answer this question but I'm here and the book is somewhere,
and I suspect one or two people here can answer this without pulling
out the book - is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP device discussed
in a chapter of the Osborne book?
I don't know if I'd call it a proto-DSP device, but it is/was a bipolar
microcontroller type of device. The Osborne book does a very poor job
at explaining its functioning--and then tries to fit the book's standard
"move bytes" benchmark to it.
Better is the Signetics "Bipolar LSI Data Manual":
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/signetics/_dataBooks/1984_…
Which gives a pretty good rundown on the whole family.
--Chuck
1 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP device
discussed in a chapter of
the Osborne book?
I don't know whether Osborne described it that way, but since the 8X300 and
8X305 don't have a multiplier, only support 8-bit addition, and can only
address 512 bytes of data address space, they wouldn't make very good DSP
processors. However, since all instructions execute in 250 ns, they'd be
able to perform some DSP operations faster than contemporary 8-bit
microprocessors, which usually took at least 2 us for the simplest
instructions, and even longer for fancier instructions.
1:10 p.m.
On 2016-11-29 5:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Brent Hilpert
<hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
I just went and got my Osborne book...
" The 8X300 is described by its manufacturer as a "microcontroller"
rather than a "microprocessor". This distinction draws attention to the
unique capabilities of the 8X300 which make it the most remarkable
device described in this book"
"The 8X300 is designed to serve as a signal processor or logic
controller, operating at very high speed."
Paul.
is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP
device discussed in a chapter of
the Osborne book?
I don't know whether Osborne described it that way, but since the 8X300 and
8X305 don't have a multiplier, only support 8-bit addition, and can only
address 512 bytes of data address space, they wouldn't make very good DSP
processors. However, since all instructions execute in 250 ns, they'd be
able to perform some DSP operations faster than contemporary 8-bit
microprocessors, which usually took at least 2 us for the simplest
instructions, and even longer for fancier instructions.
3:29 p.m.
On 2016-Nov-29, at 1:10 PM, Paul Berger wrote:
On 2016-11-29 5:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Those are the statements I was recalling the sentiment of.
I used the phrase proto-DSP in the sense of not-quite a DSP but directed towards high
data/IO throughput, or precursor to DSPs.
I remember the device from going through the Osborne book, and had wondered where it might
have been actually used, thinking of medical or mil/avionics, so it's interesting to
hear in this thread it found use in more commonplace/accessible products.
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Brent Hilpert
<hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
I just went and got my Osborne book...
" The 8X300 is described by its manufacturer as a "microcontroller" rather
than a "microprocessor". This distinction draws attention to the unique
capabilities of the 8X300 which make it the most remarkable device described in this
book"
"The 8X300 is designed to serve as a signal processor or logic controller, operating
at very high speed." is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP
device discussed in a chapter of
the Osborne book?
I don't know whether Osborne described it that way, but since the 8X300 and
8X305 don't have a multiplier, only support 8-bit addition, and can only
address 512 bytes of data address space, they wouldn't make very good DSP
processors. However, since all instructions execute in 250 ns, they'd be
able to perform some DSP operations faster than contemporary 8-bit
microprocessors, which usually took at least 2 us for the simplest
instructions, and even longer for fancier instructions.
11:37 a.m.
the only one I've seen is the Zendex ZX-203
On 11/29/16 10:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I don't think that I've seen an 8X30x board
with more than an 8X300/305
and perhaps an 8X330 FDC and various transceivers, memory and other logic.
How many boards used other specialized members of the product family,
such as 8X384, 8X310, 8X320, 8X360 or 8X355?
--Chuck
28 Nov
28 Nov
9:05 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 1:43 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server from
dca on ebay today to dump
http://www.ebay.com/itm/192014611480
That is the board I was thinking of.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262721065197
On 11/28/16 5:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
My guess is that EPROMs of that time were not fast enough for the 8X305 to run
flat out. Bipolar PROMs were too expensive in the capacity needed. So
they copied
the code into (fast enough) SRAM at startup.
-tony
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Al Kossow
<aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
IRMA card
I'd forgotten about that. The later ones designed the 8X305 out. It's
interesting in that the firmware gets loaded into RAM, rather than running
for PROM.
29 Nov
29 Nov
1:04 p.m.
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote:
My guess is that EPROMs of that time were not fast
enough for the 8X305 to
run
flat out. Bipolar PROMs were too expensive in the capacity needed. So
they copied the code into (fast enough) SRAM at startup.
AFAIK, at the time the IRMA II was made, 2K*8 fast(ish) bipolar PROMs were
not much different in price from the 2K*8 static RAMs they used. I think
the purpose most likely was to allow choice of different firmware at
runtime, either for different feature sets, or for diagnostics.
5:41 p.m.
likely, that's why I didn't go after the one that was just on eBay
where did you see the picture? I wonder if it's the same as the irmaprint I bought
On 12/23/16 3:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Nov 27, 2016 8:10 AM, "Al Kossow" <aek
at bitsavers.org> wrote:
IRMA card
Just saw a photo of the inside of an AppleLine, and it also used 8X305. I
wonder whether Apple might have licensed the IRMA design.
8:42 p.m.
Many early DSP applications were based on shift and add,
rather than multiplying.
Not having a multiplier is not necessarily a problem.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Eric Smith <spacewar
at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 8:22:56 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses?
https://twitter.com/yesterbits/status/812415257616457728
24 Dec
24 Dec
7:43 a.m.
see if he'll dump the firmware. it's identical to the DCA IRMAprint
On 12/23/16 8:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
26 Nov
26 Nov
11:11 p.m.
On 11/26/2016 08:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which
I've used to
disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the
Zendex ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products
used the SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any?
My Durango 900 series machine uses one for the hard disk controller on
what is about the size of an S100 card, but a little smaller. It fits
in the expansion area just in back of the floppy drives and drives an
ST506-interface drive.
The previous model used a Shugart SA4000 external hard drive and a card
with an Intel 8291 and 8292 to implement a GPIB link. The controller
itself is full of TTL and matches the footprint of the SA4000.
Microsystems Consultant in Sunnyvale designed it.
There was a floppy controller in the Signetics Bipolar 8X300 line. It's
in the Signetics Bipolar Microcomputer databook.
--Chuck
27 Nov
27 Nov
7:14 a.m.
I'm starting to work through my board pile.
The IRMA card is the only 8X305 I've seen lately that isn't in a disc controller.
I have a bunch more disk controllers in the queue, mostly multibus, the ADC S-100
and some others.
On 11/26/16 8:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which
I've used to
disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex
ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the
SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any?
In the early to mid-1980s, the 8X300 was a good choice for hard disk
controllers, because all instructions took 250ns, and a single instruction
could read an I/O port or RAM location, shift and mask, and write another
I/O port or RAM location. At the time, no MOS microprocessor was even close
to that.
7:17 a.m.
oh, and the Xerox 6085 disk controller with tags is high on my list to know the innards,
especially the difference between the two known revisions
On 11/27/16 7:14 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
I'm starting to work through my board pile.
The IRMA card is the only 8X305 I've seen lately that isn't in a disc
controller.
I have a bunch more disk controllers in the queue, mostly multibus, the ADC S-100
and some others.
On 11/26/16 8:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler,
which I've used to
disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex
ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the
SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any?
In the early to mid-1980s, the 8X300 was a good choice for hard disk
controllers, because all instructions took 250ns, and a single instruction
could read an I/O port or RAM location, shift and mask, and write another
I/O port or RAM location. At the time, no MOS microprocessor was even close
to that.
1:18 p.m.
On Nov 26, 2016, at 11:39 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar
at gmail.com> wrote:
Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to
disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex
ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the
SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any?
The DEC Pro hard drive controller.
paul
3:20 p.m.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
have you seen a copy of the schematic anywhere?
closest that has turned up is the Russian clone of it
The PROMs from the Russian clone are only slightly different than the
Televideo and Radio Shack (8MB) WD1000 ROMs. There's no reason to think
that they are different than the DEC PROMs, but without a dump of the DEC
PROMs there is uncertainty.
28 Nov
28 Nov
10:09 a.m.
No, I never have. The only PRO related schematics I have matches the motherboard portion
of the one on Bitsavers.
paul
On Nov 27, 2016, at 6:00 PM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
have you seen a copy of the schematic anywhere?
closest that has turned up is the Russian clone of it
On 11/27/16 1:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
The DEC Pro hard drive controller.
paul
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35 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard.p850ug1＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
jos.dreesen＠greenmail.ch -
jwsmail＠jwsss.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
phb.hfx＠gmail.com -
spacewar＠gmail.com