3 Jan
2002
3 Jan
'02
5:57 a.m.
I know I'm going to open up a can of worms on this post, but my curiosity
is killing me....
Now that I have OpenVMS 6.1 running on my VAX 4000, I'm curious about the
status of the various "FreeVMS" projects that are in progress (or so it
would seem....).
Are any of these projects really in active development? Which projects have
the greatest potential for operation? I checked several sites related to
"FreeVMS", which actually seems to be a common name for several different
projects with different goals.
I'd love to "cut my teeth" with kernel development after working with Linux
for several years. I personally think it would be neat to have an accurate
version of FreeVMS that would work on VAX, AXP, and i386 (gulp!). When I
say accurate, I mean that FreeVMS would respond the same as VMS would for
the various commands and peripherals.
Some of you probably think it would be silly to take an i386 version of
FreeVMS and port it "back" to VAX and AXP, but it would be a neat way to
use FreeVMS, especially if the OpenVMS hobbyist program (or OpenVMS) were
to go away.
Nuts? Probably. Neat? Yes!
Here are links to the various FreeVMS projects I have visited:
http://www.panix.com/~kingdon/free-vms.html
http://www.freevms.org/
http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/
- Matt
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
3 Jan
3 Jan
6:51 a.m.
I for one, would LOVE to run a VMS look alike on my
i386 machine (or at least one of my spare machines...)
It would bring back younger days when I was an op on several
vaxen. (also some dg and some apollo)
please please please!!! : ^ )
Matthew Sell wrote:
I know I'm going to open up a can of worms on this post, but my
curiosity is killing me....
Now that I have OpenVMS 6.1 running on my VAX 4000, I'm curious about
the status of the various "FreeVMS" projects that are in progress (or so
it would seem....).
Are any of these projects really in active development? Which projects
have the greatest potential for operation? I checked several sites
related to "FreeVMS", which actually seems to be a common name for
several different projects with different goals.
I'd love to "cut my teeth" with kernel development after working with
Linux for several years. I personally think it would be neat to have an
accurate version of FreeVMS that would work on VAX, AXP, and i386
(gulp!). When I say accurate, I mean that FreeVMS would respond the same
as VMS would for the various commands and peripherals.
Some of you probably think it would be silly to take an i386 version of
FreeVMS and port it "back" to VAX and AXP, but it would be a neat way to
use FreeVMS, especially if the OpenVMS hobbyist program (or OpenVMS)
were to go away.
Nuts? Probably. Neat? Yes!
Here are links to the various FreeVMS projects I have visited:
http://www.panix.com/~kingdon/free-vms.html
http://www.freevms.org/
http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/
- Matt
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
8:23 a.m.
In my opinion, it would be a good way to get exposed to the inner workings
of VMS. What better way to learn the inner workings of an operating system
than to replicate it on another platform?
If anyone here on this list is involved with one of the FreeVMS projects,
I'd love to hear from you.
- Matt
At 09:51 AM 1/3/2002 -0800, you wrote:
I for one, would LOVE to run a VMS look alike on my
i386 machine (or at least one of my spare machines...)
It would bring back younger days when I was an op on several
vaxen. (also some dg and some apollo)
please please please!!! : ^ )
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
1:46 p.m.
Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
Peace... Sridhar
On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:51:27 -0800
From: Ron Hudson <rhudson(a)cnonline.net>
Reply-To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: FreeVMS
I for one, would LOVE to run a VMS look alike on my
i386 machine (or at least one of my spare machines...)
It would bring back younger days when I was an op on several
vaxen. (also some dg and some apollo)
please please please!!! : ^ )
Matthew Sell wrote:
I know I'm going to open up a can of worms on this post, but my
curiosity is killing me....
Now that I have OpenVMS 6.1 running on my VAX 4000, I'm curious about
the status of the various "FreeVMS" projects that are in progress (or so
it would seem....).
Are any of these projects really in active development? Which projects
have the greatest potential for operation? I checked several sites
related to "FreeVMS", which actually seems to be a common name for
several different projects with different goals.
I'd love to "cut my teeth" with kernel development after working with
Linux for several years. I personally think it would be neat to have an
accurate version of FreeVMS that would work on VAX, AXP, and i386
(gulp!). When I say accurate, I mean that FreeVMS would respond the same
as VMS would for the various commands and peripherals.
Some of you probably think it would be silly to take an i386 version of
FreeVMS and port it "back" to VAX and AXP, but it would be a neat way to
use FreeVMS, especially if the OpenVMS hobbyist program (or OpenVMS)
were to go away.
Nuts? Probably. Neat? Yes!
Here are links to the various FreeVMS projects I have visited:
http://www.panix.com/~kingdon/free-vms.html
http://www.freevms.org/
http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/
- Matt
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
2:19 p.m.
Or you could help out Bob Supnik(?) or Tim Stark on their vax
emulators. SimH already will run NetBSD/VAX but fails with VMS.
Brian
On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote:
Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
Peace... Sridhar
On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:51:27 -0800
> From: Ron Hudson <rhudson(a)cnonline.net>
> Reply-To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: FreeVMS
>
> I for one, would LOVE to run a VMS look alike on my
> i386 machine (or at least one of my spare machines...)
> It would bring back younger days when I was an op on several
> vaxen. (also some dg and some apollo)
>
> please please please!!! : ^ )
>
>
>
> Matthew Sell wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I know I'm going to open up a can of worms on this post, but my
> > curiosity is killing me....
> >
> >
> > Now that I have OpenVMS 6.1 running on my VAX 4000, I'm curious about
> > the status of the various "FreeVMS" projects that are in progress (or
so
> > it would seem....).
> >
> > Are any of these projects really in active development? Which projects
> > have the greatest potential for operation? I checked several sites
> > related to "FreeVMS", which actually seems to be a common name for
> > several different projects with different goals.
> >
> > I'd love to "cut my teeth" with kernel development after working
with
> > Linux for several years. I personally think it would be neat to have an
> > accurate version of FreeVMS that would work on VAX, AXP, and i386
> > (gulp!). When I say accurate, I mean that FreeVMS would respond the same
> > as VMS would for the various commands and peripherals.
> >
> > Some of you probably think it would be silly to take an i386 version of
> > FreeVMS and port it "back" to VAX and AXP, but it would be a neat way
to
> > use FreeVMS, especially if the OpenVMS hobbyist program (or OpenVMS)
> > were to go away.
> >
> > Nuts? Probably. Neat? Yes!
> >
> > Here are links to the various FreeVMS projects I have visited:
> >
> > http://www.panix.com/~kingdon/free-vms.html
> > http://www.freevms.org/
> > http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/
> >
> >
> > - Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Matthew Sell
> > Programmer
> > On Time Support, Inc.
> > www.ontimesupport.com
> > (281) 296-6066
> >
> > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
> > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
> >
> >
> > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
> > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
> >
> > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
>
>
3:34 p.m.
Brian,
Emulation of hardware wasn't my goal; I was hoping to emulate the operating
system on the VAX.
- Matt
At 08:19 PM 1/3/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Or you could help out Bob Supnik(?) or Tim Stark on
their vax
emulators. SimH already will run NetBSD/VAX but fails with VMS.
Brian
On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote:
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
Peace... Sridhar
On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:51:27 -0800
> From: Ron Hudson <rhudson(a)cnonline.net>
> Reply-To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: FreeVMS
>
> I for one, would LOVE to run a VMS look alike on my
> i386 machine (or at least one of my spare machines...)
> It would bring back younger days when I was an op on several
> vaxen. (also some dg and some apollo)
>
> please please please!!! : ^ )
>
>
>
> Matthew Sell wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I know I'm going to open up a can of worms on this post, but my
> > curiosity is killing me....
> >
> >
> > Now that I have OpenVMS 6.1 running on my VAX 4000, I'm curious about
> > the status of the various "FreeVMS" projects that are in progress
(or so
> > it would seem....).
> >
> > Are any of these projects really in active development? Which projects
> > have the greatest potential for operation? I checked several sites
> > related to "FreeVMS", which actually seems to be a common name for
> > several different projects with different goals.
> >
> > I'd love to "cut my teeth" with kernel development after working
with
> > Linux for several years. I personally think it would be neat to have an
> > accurate version of FreeVMS that would work on VAX, AXP, and i386
> > (gulp!). When I say accurate, I mean that FreeVMS would respond the
same
> > as VMS would for the various commands
and peripherals.
> >
> > Some of you probably think it would be silly to take an i386 version of
> > FreeVMS and port it "back" to VAX and AXP, but it would be a neat
way to
> > > use FreeVMS, especially if the OpenVMS hobbyist program (or OpenVMS)
> > > were to go away.
> > >
> > > Nuts? Probably. Neat? Yes!
> > >
> > > Here are links to the various FreeVMS projects I have visited:
> > >
> > > http://www.panix.com/~kingdon/free-vms.html
> > > http://www.freevms.org/
> > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/
> > >
> > >
> > > - Matt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Matthew Sell
> > > Programmer
> > > On Time Support, Inc.
> > > www.ontimesupport.com
> > > (281) 296-6066
> > >
> > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
> > > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
> > >
> > >
> > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
> > > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
> > >
> > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
> >
> >
7:19 p.m.
Yup, I could "help" them, probably set the effort back
at least a year... :^)
brian wheeler wrote:
Or you could help out Bob Supnik(?) or Tim Stark on
their vax
emulators. SimH already will run NetBSD/VAX but fails with VMS.
Brian
On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote:
> Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
$$ and X*Y*Z (money and space) :^)
>
> Peace... Sridhar
4 Jan
4 Jan
3:41 a.m.
On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
I have not-too-much experince with VMS, so bear with me, but wouldn't it
be possible to do one of the following options:
1) Stick an 'emulation' user-mode shell on top of some free *nix
2) Take a stock free *nix kernel, and modify it to work more like VMS.
While #1 (should) be rather trivial if all the catches fit into the kernel
hooks (and a bit of coersion for the stranger details), #2 still saves
quite a bit of work by having a framework of usable device drivers, kernel
scheduler, vm, memory manangement, etc. etc. etc. Changing around the
kernel's API just enuf to work wouldn't be too much of a problem. Leaving
the essentials in place could mean compatibility with some existing *nix
software even, and things like VMWare which would help greatly with
development efforts.
Of course, the problem is deciding what ONE kernel to use (prolly BSD or
Linux 2.??), and how to trim down the kernel to a small set of drivers for
testing it.
Well, as a student, and long-time programmer (compared to other 20yr
olds), that's my $0.02.
--Pat
Yup, I could "help" them, probably set the
effort back
at least a year... :^)
Also: speed. Sorry, but the new Dual ath 1.4G I hope to get with Xmas
money would be tons faster than and old VAX 8650. Not as fun to play with
the little computer, but much easier to carry without a pallet mover.
On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River
of Suck wrote:
> Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
$$ and X*Y*Z (money and space) :^) >
> Peace... Sridhar
4:09 a.m.
If it doesn't have wheels, it isn't really a computer.
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
I have not-too-much experince with VMS, so bear with me, but wouldn't it
be possible to do one of the following options:
1) Stick an 'emulation' user-mode shell on top of some free *nix
2) Take a stock free *nix kernel, and modify it to work more like VMS.
While #1 (should) be rather trivial if all the catches fit into the kernel
hooks (and a bit of coersion for the stranger details), #2 still saves
quite a bit of work by having a framework of usable device drivers, kernel
scheduler, vm, memory manangement, etc. etc. etc. Changing around the
kernel's API just enuf to work wouldn't be too much of a problem. Leaving
the essentials in place could mean compatibility with some existing *nix
software even, and things like VMWare which would help greatly with
development efforts.
Of course, the problem is deciding what ONE kernel to use (prolly BSD or
Linux 2.??), and how to trim down the kernel to a small set of drivers for
testing it.
Well, as a student, and long-time programmer (compared to other 20yr
olds), that's my $0.02.
--Pat
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
Yup, I could "help" them, probably set
the effort back
at least a year... :^)
Also: speed. Sorry, but the new Dual ath 1.4G I hope to get with Xmas
money would be tons faster than and old VAX 8650. Not as fun to play with
the little computer, but much easier to carry without a pallet mover.
On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River
of Suck wrote:
> Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
$$ and X*Y*Z (money and space) :^) >
> Peace... Sridhar
4:38 a.m.
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
If it doesn't have wheels, it isn't really a
computer.
Actually if i wanted to get a new tower case, i COULD get a tower case
with casters already attached for about $300 new.... but i like to save
money for other things..........
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
>
> > Yup, I could "help" them, probably set the effort back
> > at least a year... :^)
> >
> > > On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote:
> > >
> > >> Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
> >
> > $$ and X*Y*Z (money and space) :^)
>
> Also: speed. Sorry, but the new Dual ath 1.4G I hope to get with Xmas
> money would be tons faster than and old VAX 8650. Not as fun to play with
> the little computer, but much easier to carry without a pallet mover.
>
-- Pat
6:34 a.m.
Take them off your System 36. ;)
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
If it doesn't have wheels, it isn't
really a computer.
Actually if i wanted to get a new tower case, i COULD get a tower case
with casters already attached for about $300 new.... but i like to save
money for other things..........
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
>
> > Yup, I could "help" them, probably set the effort back
> > at least a year... :^)
> >
> > > On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote:
> > >
> > >> Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
> >
> > $$ and X*Y*Z (money and space) :^)
>
> Also: speed. Sorry, but the new Dual ath 1.4G I hope to get with Xmas
> money would be tons faster than and old VAX 8650. Not as fun to play with
> the little computer, but much easier to carry without a pallet mover.
>
-- Pat
7:38 a.m.
New subject: AT&T hardware (was Re: FreeVMS)
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
Take them off your System 36. ;)
Ooh you made me think of something (I actually had thought about getting a
S/36 off of ebay, but didnt wanna spend it on the shipping again.)
Question:
I have an AT&T 6544 'cluster controller' I got off of ebay this past
summer. (July I believe) I now have it, but the hard drive (an ST-225
scsi drive) was crashed beyond all belief: about 1 in 10 or > sectors are
unreadble on my desktop. The thing wont boot or do anything. I've found
one company (Telemechanics) that seems to support them, but i'm sure i
don't want to spend the few hundred++ dollars that they'd want for a new
drive and software.
I was wondering if anyone has software or helpful info on the device.
Thanks much!
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
>
> > If it doesn't have wheels, it isn't really a computer.
> >
>
> Actually if i wanted to get a new tower case, i COULD get a tower case
> with casters already attached for about $300 new.... but i like to save
> money for other things..........
>
-- Pat
24 Jan
24 Jan
12:49 p.m.
New subject: AT&T hardware
I have an AT&T 6544 'cluster controller' I got off of ebay this past
summer. (July I believe) I now have it, but the hard drive (an ST-225
scsi drive) was crashed beyond all belief: about 1 in 10 or > sectors are
unreadble on my desktop. The thing wont boot or do anything. I've found
one company (Telemechanics) that seems to support them, but i'm sure i
don't want to spend the few hundred++ dollars that they'd want for a new
drive and software.
I was wondering if anyone has software or helpful info on the device.
Thanks much!
-- Pat
4 Jan
4 Jan
6:11 a.m.
You forgot about the weight.....
If it doesn't have enough mass to border on creating a "black hole", all
the while consuming enormous amounts of energy....
: )
- Matt
At 10:09 AM 1/4/2002 -0500, you wrote:
If it doesn't have wheels, it isn't really a
computer.
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote:
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
I have not-too-much experince with VMS, so bear with me, but wouldn't it
be possible to do one of the following options:
1) Stick an 'emulation' user-mode shell on top of some free *nix
2) Take a stock free *nix kernel, and modify it to work more like VMS.
While #1 (should) be rather trivial if all the catches fit into the kernel
hooks (and a bit of coersion for the stranger details), #2 still saves
quite a bit of work by having a framework of usable device drivers, kernel
scheduler, vm, memory manangement, etc. etc. etc. Changing around the
kernel's API just enuf to work wouldn't be too much of a problem. Leaving
the essentials in place could mean compatibility with some existing *nix
software even, and things like VMWare which would help greatly with
development efforts.
Of course, the problem is deciding what ONE kernel to use (prolly BSD or
Linux 2.??), and how to trim down the kernel to a small set of drivers for
testing it.
Well, as a student, and long-time programmer (compared to other 20yr
olds), that's my $0.02.
--Pat
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid Yup, I could "help" them, probably set
the effort back
at least a year... :^)
Also: speed. Sorry, but the new Dual ath 1.4G I hope to get with Xmas
money would be tons faster than and old VAX 8650. Not as fun to play with
the little computer, but much easier to carry without a pallet mover.
On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River
of Suck wrote:
> Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
$$ and X*Y*Z (money and space) :^) >
> Peace... Sridhar
5:31 p.m.
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Ron Hudson wrote:
Get a bunch of VAXstation 4000/VLC's, and you will have a nice little
low-power fast VAXcluster.
Yup, I could "help" them, probably set
the effort back
at least a year... :^)
Also: speed. Sorry, but the new Dual ath 1.4G I hope to get with Xmas
money would be tons faster than and old VAX 8650. Not as fun to play with
the little computer, but much easier to carry without a pallet mover. On Thu, 2002-01-03 at 19:46, Boatman on the River
of Suck wrote:
> Why not just get a VAX (or two or three?)
$$ and X*Y*Z (money and space) :^)
I have not-too-much experince with VMS, so bear with me, but wouldn't it
be possible to do one of the following options:
1) Stick an 'emulation' user-mode shell on top of some free *nix
2) Take a stock free *nix kernel, and modify it to work more like VMS.
But then you still wouldn't have compatibility with VMS. Get a VAXstation
4000/VLC and start playing with it, and you will see how fun it is. Plus
it will use *significantly* less space, power, and cooling than that
junky PC.
Peace... Sridhar
10 Jan
10 Jan
4:34 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 09:41:48AM -0500, Pat Finnegan wrote:
Of course, the problem is deciding what ONE kernel to use (prolly BSD or
Linux 2.??), and how to trim down the kernel to a small set of drivers for
testing it.
Linux/PC was chosen because of availability reasons.
-Roar Thron?s
4 Jan
4 Jan
8:14 a.m.
I'm not convinced that it makes sense to keep the FreeVMS idea up. It just
does not make sense:
- OpenVMS is a mature environment. Maturity and obsolescense are tightly
coupled, but one thing is sure right now: VMS is 24 years old, many of the
ideas which influenced its design where intimately coupled to the computing
style of the late 1970ies (Minicomputers, CISC, large systems etc.)
- OpenVMS is complete. Reimplementing even only a limited subset of VMS would
be a real ambitious effort. Reimplementing it in a portable way would be even
harder, as the operating system is tightly coupled to the design of the DEC
CPUs.
- OpenVMS is completely different. It is not Unix with a funny command shell.
It has logical names, asynchronous I/O and generic traps available to user
programs, it has fat processes and a command interpreter in supervisor mode,
it has logical names which are visible process-, job-, group or system-wide,
it has fine-grained privileges, cluster-wide lock management, a file system
with structured files, it has a structured command line with unified command
and argument parsing, structured error messages etc etc. The whole power of
VMS becomes visible only if the complete system is at your disposal.
Porting Unix applications to VMS is usually a pain and I can see no sensible
reason why one would want to write applications for an operating system which
could, at best, reach the maturity of VMS 1.x in a few years from now.
I can understand the urge to write an own operating system. Re-writing a
proprietary or obsolete OS from the past would be the wrong way to enhance the
world. We already see the pain one has to experience when being faced with
Unix rewrites.
If what you want is use the coolest operating system of the world, get a VAX
or an Alpha and run OpenVMS. It's ready to use, it is complete and it is
pretty cool.
-Hans
--
finger hans(a)huebner.org for details
9:07 a.m.
I'm not convinced that it makes sense to keep the
FreeVMS idea up. It just
does not make sense:
It really doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. If it's something that
is already underway, then I'd like to assist. If not, then I'd like to
start working on it. It's my time and computing equipment, anyway.
I really don't care if anyone thinks it makes sense or not. Originally I
was asking if anyone had dealings with people who were involved in such an
undertaking. I didn't buy an 11/780 to sit around and look pretty. With
time and electricity permitting, I intend to actually learn from it. I'll
probably spend more time on my 11/750 for obvious budgetary and cooling
reasons, though.
- OpenVMS is complete. Reimplementing even only a limited subset of VMS would
be a real ambitious effort. Reimplementing it in a
portable way would be even
harder, as the operating system is tightly coupled to the design of the DEC
CPUs.
Difficulty of re-implementation has no effect whatsoever on this. This is a
hobby isn't it? If not, why don't we all just junk these old computers and
get new ones. After all, new computers are much faster and can play the
newest games, right? If difficulty was the reason for not doing something,
then we all must be crazy for spending our time with these old computers.
Porting Unix applications to VMS is usually a pain and
I can see no sensible
reason why one would want to write applications for an operating system which
could, at best, reach the maturity of VMS 1.x in a few years from now.
Port what UNIX apps? Other than starting with a UNIX-based kernel, the goal
would be to run VMS apps, not UNIX apps. In a few years from now, FreeVMS
0.x may be the only VMS around.....
I can understand the urge to write an own operating
system. Re-writing a
proprietary or obsolete OS from the past would be the wrong way to enhance the
world. We already see the pain one has to experience when being faced with
Unix rewrites.
I don't care about enhancing the world with a new OS. That's what Linux and
the BSD's are for. Again, I really don't care if anyone wants to help, or
if anyone even thinks this is a good idea. Having others support this means
nothing to me as well. I was just wondering if anyone else has tried this.
If what you want is use the coolest operating system of
the world, get a VAX
or an Alpha and run OpenVMS. It's ready to use, it is complete and it is
pretty cool.
Hans, did you read my original post? I already have VMS, and several VAXen.
If you were to check with my orignal post, and substitute "NetBSD" for
"FreeBSD" you would see I want to accomplish.
There are several reasons why this is a good idea in MY opinion. Some are
only good reasons for me, others could be helpful to the classic community.
How much longer is Compaq going to keep OpenVMS alive? I think it's days
are numbered. Why port a 20+ year old OS to the Itanium? I know Compaq says
they are doing it, but will anyone put money down on it? How many? Too many
IS weenies seem to think that Windows 2000 will solve most of the world's
problems anyway. What chance does VMS have against this? Heck, Compaq has
pissed away everything else they gained from DEC......
Anybody who thinks OpenVMS will be viable 10 years from now needs to visit
a psychiatrist. Just my opinion....
- Matt
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
11:27 a.m.
What chance does VMS have against this? Heck, Compaq
has
pissed away everything else they gained from DEC......
Anybody who thinks OpenVMS will be viable 10 years from now needs to visit
a psychiatrist. Just my opinion....
- Matt
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
VMS's best hope is being sold to a third party.
FreeVMS is probably a good idea.
I bet it's too difficult to implement on top of a Unix kernel, though.
Bill
12:38 p.m.
Too difficult - compared to what?
I'm approaching this idea from a position of ignorance. That gives me a
better shot at it.
Maybe - maybe not. But I *will* learn quite a bit regarding kernel design.
That can't be bad - even if the idea doesn't go anywhere.
I personally think the attempt would be a lot more beneficial than anything
else. Just mucking around with the NetBSD kernel would be very
interesting......
- Matt
VMS's best hope is being sold to a third party.
FreeVMS is probably a good idea.
I bet it's too difficult to implement on top of a Unix kernel, though.
Bill
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
8:31 p.m.
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Matthew Sell wrote:
Too difficult - compared to what?
I'm approaching this idea from a position of ignorance. That gives me a
better shot at it.
Too difficult as opposed to writing it from scratch as straight VMS.
Maybe - maybe not. But I *will* learn quite a bit
regarding kernel design.
That can't be bad - even if the idea doesn't go anywhere.
I personally think the attempt would be a lot more beneficial than anything
else. Just mucking around with the NetBSD kernel would be very
interesting......
Agreed, but trying to make NetBSD into VMS would be asking for pain. In
large quantities. And it would be a mess.
Peace... Sridhar
10 Jan
10 Jan
5:01 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 08:14:25PM +0100, Hans H?bner wrote:
I'm not convinced that it makes sense to keep the
FreeVMS idea up. It just
does not make sense:
- OpenVMS is a mature environment. Maturity and obsolescense are tightly
coupled, but one thing is sure right now: VMS is 24 years old, many of the
Unix is older: 33 years.
ideas which influenced its design where intimately
coupled to the computing
style of the late 1970ies (Minicomputers, CISC, large systems etc.)
They may say minis and mainframes are dead, but it is still mainly words...
A lot of machines with Windows/PC (even Linux/PC) may still not be up to the task...
Supercomputing centres may use a lot of smaller machines instead of Crays,
though, but that is a bit different computing model.
- OpenVMS is complete. Reimplementing even only a
limited subset of VMS would
be a real ambitious effort. Reimplementing it in a portable way would be even
harder, as the operating system is tightly coupled to the design of the DEC
CPUs.
It will be 5.x-ish, because that's the newest complete Internals books.
If what you want is use the coolest operating system
of the world, get a VAX
or an Alpha and run OpenVMS. It's ready to use, it is complete and it is
pretty cool.
Will be using that, too.
-Roar Thron?s
3:17 a.m.
On Thu, Jan 03, 2002 at 10:57:36AM -0600, Matthew Sell wrote:
Now that I have OpenVMS 6.1 running on my VAX 4000, I'm curious about the
status of the various "FreeVMS" projects that are in progress (or so it
would seem....).
I'd love to "cut my teeth" with kernel development after working with Linux
Nice to hear that.
Here are links to the various FreeVMS projects I have
visited:
http://www.panix.com/~kingdon/free-vms.html
http://www.freevms.org/
The main project is eventually reachable from this one.
Better look straight at
http://freevms.free.fr/indexGB.html
It has actually got kernel functionality. (For the first time, I think)
(Note: The CVS stuff is usually more current than the downloads.)
But:
The project need more developers.
-Roar Thron?s
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-
at258＠osfn.org -
bdwheele＠indiana.edu -
Diff＠Mac.com -
hans＠Huebner.ORG -
msell＠ontimesupport.com -
pat＠purdueriots.com -
pechter＠bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com -
rhudson＠cnonline.net -
roart＠nvg.ntnu.no -
tothwolf＠concentric.net -
vance＠ikickass.org