21 Mar
1999
21 Mar
'99
3:43 a.m.
On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:05:30 -0500, Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
wrote:
>The tenative price of $500 seems awfully high to
me. After all, it's not
>like there is a lot of R&D involved, the components aren't exactly
>cutting-edge, and to some extent the markets are already established.
I don't recall Fischer's Web site quoting a price. I applied the price
of $500 to a currently-mythical 25th Anniversary Edition kit which was my
$0.02.
I don't know if $500 is the right number either, but I figure that in a
"new" IMSAI 8080 kit in low quantities, there'd be at least $75 in boards,
$100++ for the case, $50 for the power supply, $25 for a silkscreened front
panel and the rest, silicon, passives, switches, and the backplane
connectors. And that doesn't iinclude any re-engineering costs to account
for parts that have been discontinued or marked as "end-of-life."
Given what happens when the old IMSAIs hit ePay, I'd pay $500 for a new
kit that I could build myself. I don't know if I'd want a Pentium-class
IMSAI with a front panel for $1200. I guess it would depend on how
faithfully it reproduced/simulated the operation of the original. I also
don't know if another bus standard is necessary, too.
Personally, I'd prefer a kit, and I think that $500-600 is not
unreasonable. I'm sure that if you open this up to the hobbyest community,
you'd find enough takers to make a 500-unit quantity production run
feasable.
[ Rich Cini/WUGNET
[ ClubWin!/CW7
[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[ Collector of "classic" computers
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<---------------------------- reply separator
21 Mar
21 Mar
7:24 a.m.
On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:
I don't know if $500 is the right number
either, but I figure that in a
"new" IMSAI 8080 kit in low quantities, there'd be at least $75 in boards,
$100++ for the case, $50 for the power supply, $25 for a silkscreened front
panel and the rest, silicon, passives, switches, and the backplane
connectors. And that doesn't iinclude any re-engineering costs to account
for parts that have been discontinued or marked as "end-of-life."
$500 is a bit optimistic. I think the materials alone would cost that
much (metal, PCBs, connectors, power supply elements, etc).
Personally, I'd prefer a kit, and I think that
$500-600 is not
unreasonable. I'm sure that if you open this up to the hobbyest community,
you'd find enough takers to make a 500-unit quantity production run
feasable.
Only in sufficient quantity, but remember this was about the price of a
new kit in 1976 (ok, maybe a bit higher), and therefore inflation would
dictate a much higher cost these days.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
7:34 a.m.
I'd be more inclined to just build a facade, a control panel with switches
and lights, but all connected to a standard PC I/O subsystem and run
hardware emulation in software on the PC. It would make a perfect low cost,
low maintainence hands on display for a museum type place. I guess a
vintage control panel could also be used too, to make the "collectors"
happy.
11:03 a.m.
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2:18 p.m.
On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
it was correct if motor car museums had modern engines
in all the
exhibits?
Yes, but it's possible to make replacement parts for an auto engine. If
there's simply no more of a certain processor available, what do you do
besides make a replacement out of custom chips?
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
2:28 p.m.
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4:54 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
monitor hidden inside the case of a classic monitor.
This was to go on
show as a museum exhibit in place of having the real machine in operation.
Although I would object to destroying a classic monitor, this seems ok to
me. Nobody would think that this was the actual machine running, no
videotape can be that good. Of course, a real machine would be better. But
then, what do you do with a real machine? You can't have people use it,
because that would destroy it. Nobody would be interested in sitting and
watching somebody flip switches to demonstrate how it was used. So the
only solution is to have it sit and collect dust.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
5:04 p.m.
On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
What do you mean "You can't have people use it, because that would destroy
it"? Its going to decay into a pile of dust anyway. You may as well give
people the opportunity to experience it first hand while its still
possible. In ther very least, have it running with some software that
demonstrates some of its capabilities.
monitor hidden inside the case of a classic
monitor. This was to go on
show as a museum exhibit in place of having the real machine in operation.
Although I would object to destroying a classic monitor, this seems ok to
me. Nobody would think that this was the actual machine running, no
videotape can be that good. Of course, a real machine would be better. But
then, what do you do with a real machine? You can't have people use it,
because that would destroy it. Nobody would be interested in sitting and watching somebody flip switches to demonstrate how it
was used. So the
only solution is to have it sit and collect dust.
Such a negative thinker.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
22 Mar
22 Mar
7:43 a.m.
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11:38 a.m.
On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote:
What do you mean "You can't have people use
it, because that would destroy
it"? Its going to decay into a pile of dust anyway. You may as well give
people the opportunity to experience it first hand while its still
possible. In ther very least, have it running with some software that
demonstrates some of its capabilities.
You know, I live near a museum of transportation. This museum displays
various old cars. They also have a bunch of cars for kids to play with.
Every one of these was missing every removable part the few times I've
been there. I don't see any reason why computers should be subjected to
this.
Such a negative thinker.
I'm an optimistic pessimist -- Everything sucks and I love it :)
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
1:37 p.m.
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7:40 a.m.
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11:56 a.m.
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Do you really think that such a display is an
acceptable substitute for
the real thing?
Well, I would be very cautious about letting people use the 'real thing'
(see below).
If you keep a complete backup of the hard disk
(something that's a good
idea anyway), and possibly substitute the keyboard (if spares for it are
impossible to obtain), then there's little that can be damaged from
people using the machine. And an unoriginal keyboard is a lot better than
an unoriginal CPU
Yes, that's true. But how would the people use such a machine anyway? I
mean, if you put on a card some instructions, people will just type them
in not understanding the reasons for them, and not get any joy from it.
This is especially true for machines that don't use keyboards and
screens. Let's say we took a DEC running OS/8 and let people use it. What
would they do with it? They might type DIR, say "Oh, it's like DOS" and
walk way.
Are you sure about that. Some people are certainly
interested in seeing
how things (computers, steam engines, machine tools, etc) were used. I've
been to plenty of interesting museums where many exhibits consist of
somebody demonstrating something.
Yes, but for a computer there's nothing to watch besides blinking lights.
For a steam engine, you see someone poke firewood, the wheel spinning,
smoke coming out, etc.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
12:06 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote:
That's entirely correct, if you targeted your audience to be the general
public. But computer museums definitely have a certain group of people
who are interested in their exhibits--namely programmers--and these people
should have free access to the machines in the collection.
That's where a live human comes in. To explain to the interested but
untrained observer what it is they are looking at, why it is significant,
and what it could do. The problem is finding such people to man the
exhibits.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
If you keep a
complete backup of the hard disk (something that's a good
idea anyway), and possibly substitute the keyboard (if spares for it are
impossible to obtain), then there's little that can be damaged from
people using the machine. And an unoriginal keyboard is a lot better than
an unoriginal CPU
Yes, that's true. But how would the people use such a machine anyway? I
mean, if you put on a card some instructions, people will just type them
in not understanding the reasons for them, and not get any joy from it.
This is especially true for machines that don't use keyboards and
screens. Let's say we took a DEC running OS/8 and let people use it. What
would they do with it? They might type DIR, say "Oh, it's like DOS" and
walk way. Are you sure
about that. Some people are certainly interested in seeing
how things (computers, steam engines, machine tools, etc) were used. I've
been to plenty of interesting museums where many exhibits consist of
somebody demonstrating something.
Yes, but for a computer there's nothing to watch besides blinking lights.
For a steam engine, you see someone poke firewood, the wheel spinning,
smoke coming out, etc. 
3:12 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote:
That's entirely correct, if you targeted your
audience to be the general
public. But computer museums definitely have a certain group of people
who are interested in their exhibits--namely programmers--and these people
should have free access to the machines in the collection.
Problem for me is I don't carry a government-issue ID that declares
me to be a programmer, a system administrator, a serious hobbyist,
a former Tandy demi-god or anything else of that nature. (Nor
would I carry one). And business card machines are available in
any airport or train station as though they counted. So who
decides who has free access to museum displays? I guess I could
carry photocopies of papers and articles, but so could anybody
claiming to be a gemologist at the pretty rock department of the
Museum of Natural History in DC to play with the Hope diamond.
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
6:07 p.m.
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote:
Problem for me is I don't carry a government-issue
ID that declares
me to be a programmer, a system administrator, a serious hobbyist,
a former Tandy demi-god or anything else of that nature. (Nor
would I carry one). And business card machines are available in
any airport or train station as though they counted. So who
decides who has free access to museum displays? I guess I could
carry photocopies of papers and articles, but so could anybody
claiming to be a gemologist at the pretty rock department of the
Museum of Natural History in DC to play with the Hope diamond.
I would expect that those expressing an interest with working on old
computers would be sincere, and not just weekenders looking to play video
games.
I'm sure you've already read what my solution would be, which boils down
to getting to know the interested individual before unleashing them on the
collection.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
1:44 p.m.
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2:12 p.m.
New subject: Displaying classic computers (was Re: Rebirth of IMSAI)
At 05:56 PM 3/22/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
That sounds like an awful PC (Personal Computer) point of view...
If the display is properly done, there can be a lot of things to watch.
Open reel tape drives, large format plotters, graphical disply
terminals/screens, high-speed line printers, and of course... the
blinkenlights!
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
...discussion of pros/cons of diplaying classic systems...
Are you sure about that. Some people are certainly
interested in seeing
how things (computers, steam engines, machine tools, etc) were used. I've
been to plenty of interesting museums where many exhibits consist of
somebody demonstrating something.
Yes, but for a computer there's nothing to watch besides blinking lights.
For a steam engine, you see someone poke firewood, the wheel spinning,
smoke coming out, etc. 
21 Mar
21 Mar
8:30 a.m.
I don't know if I'd want a Pentium-class
IMSAI with a front panel for $1200.
It occurs to me that you could do an IMSAI _simulator_ on a 486 motherboard
(cheap as dirt these days) mounted in a case with a "real" IMSAI front
panel where you hook the simulator to via a couple of parallel ports.
Z80EMU runs at the speed of a 6MHz z80 on my 486 laptop so its certainly
doable. If you put the simulator in rom on an ISA card with DOS-on-disk
technology you could do the how thing for about $200. :-)
--Chuck
3:35 p.m.
At 11:30 21/03/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote:
It occurs to me that you could do an IMSAI _simulator_
on a 486 motherboard
(cheap as dirt these days) mounted in a case with a "real" IMSAI front
panel where you hook the simulator to via a couple of parallel ports.
Z80EMU runs at the speed of a 6MHz z80 on my 486 laptop so its certainly
doable. If you put the simulator in rom on an ISA card with DOS-on-disk
technology you could do the how thing for about $200. :-)
Well, if you use something like http://wearables.stanford.edu/ then you
could hang the front panel display on the wall :-) Without the front panel,
you'd certainly have one of the world's smallest CP/M systems....
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au
Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479
1999
La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"
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19 comments
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participants (9)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
max82＠surfree.com -
mikeford＠netwiz.net -
rcini＠email.msn.com