21 Nov
2005
21 Nov
'05
2:32 p.m.
Subject: Re: BASIC's question mark and PRINT
From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:03:31 -0600
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
tim lindner wrote:
The ? was adopted by convention from the fact that early MS basic
(MITS BASIC) the ? was also the same value as the token for print.
Most of the non-compiled 8bit basics were tokenized in memory for
execution and storage and when "LIST"ed were detokenized to list as
Basic we know.
Allison
In BASIC, where did the short cut of '?'
for PRINT originate?
After following a discussion on the CoCo list I thought I'd ask here.
Here are some bounds and data points.
The Dartmouth BASIC specification does not have ? as an abbrevation (circa 1964).
I think all versions of Microsoft BASIC have this shortcut (circa 1975).
Palo Alto Tiny BASIC (li chen wang) didn't use this convention -- instead it
used "P.".
Wang BASIC (circa 1972) didn't use this convention.
From what I can tell, DEC BASIC didn't use this abbreviation. 
21 Nov
21 Nov
3:26 p.m.
Allison wrote:
Allison, that seems unlikely. Later versions of microsoft basic certainly
didn't use any value lower than 0x80 for tokens. Even if you could find a few
characters in the "live" portion of the ascii table that didn't lead to
ambiguous parsing, I can't think of a good reason why they'd do it -- there was
enough room at 0x80 and above, and not enough unused values below 0x80, so why
have two lookup tables when one would do?
It would seem much easier to have special case where '?' got mapped to the token
for PRINT.
OK, trying to be less speculative, I looked at the binary for
ALTAIR BASIC VERSION 3.2 [EIGHT-K VERSION]
that is included with Rich Cini's Altair emulator. At the end is the list of
the statement keywords. In memory each keyword abuts the next, and the boundary
between keywords is marked by setting the msb of the byte. Here is the table in
order:
END
FOR
NEXT
DATA
INPUT
DIM
READ
LET
GOTO
RUN
IF
RESTORE
GOSUB
RETURN
REM
STOP
OUT
ON
NULL
WAIT
DEF
POKE
PRINT
CONT
LIST
CLEAR
CLOAD
CSAVE
NEW
TAB(
Since there no room for storing a token value after each item (I know it is
possible that that mapping is held elsewhere, but it seems unlikely), these
keywords very likely have consecutive token values.
Elsewhere in the binary, near the beginning, is a similar table for the
functions (FN, SPC, NOT, AND, OR, VAL, CHR, LEFT, RIGHT, MID, FRE, SIN, COS,
TAN, PEEK, etc, but also including THEN, STEP).
Subject: Re:
BASIC's question mark and PRINT
From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:03:31 -0600
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
tim lindner wrote:
The ? was adopted by convention from the fact that early MS basic
(MITS BASIC) the ? was also the same value as the token for print.
Most of the non-compiled 8bit basics were tokenized in memory for
execution and storage and when "LIST"ed were detokenized to list as
Basic we know.
Allison In BASIC, where did the short cut of '?'
for PRINT originate?
After following a discussion on the CoCo list I thought I'd ask here.
Here are some bounds and data points.
The Dartmouth BASIC specification does not have ? as an abbrevation (circa 1964).
I think all versions of Microsoft BASIC have this shortcut (circa 1975).
Palo Alto Tiny BASIC (li chen wang) didn't use this convention -- instead it
used "P.".
Wang BASIC (circa 1972) didn't use this convention.
From what I can tell, DEC BASIC didn't use this abbreviation. 
4:09 p.m.
Jim Battle wrote:
Allison, that seems unlikely. Later versions of
microsoft basic
certainly didn't use any value lower than 0x80 for tokens. Even if you
could find a few characters in the "live" portion of the ascii table
that didn't lead to ambiguous parsing, I can't think of a good reason
why they'd do it -- there was enough room at 0x80 and above, and not
enough unused values below 0x80, so why have two lookup tables when one
would do?
Aha - didn't the last letter of each keyword have bit 7 set?
That would mean that it would be 63+128 = 191
Just a thought.
Gordon.
4:54 p.m.
Jim Battle wrote:
Allison wrote:
Allison, that seems unlikely. Later versions of microsoft basic
certainly didn't use any value lower than 0x80 for tokens. Even if you
could find a few characters in the "live" portion of the ascii table
that didn't lead to ambiguous parsing, I can't think of a good reason
why they'd do it -- there was enough room at 0x80 and above, and not
enough unused values below 0x80, so why have two lookup tables when one
would do?
It would seem much easier to have special case where '?' got mapped to
the token for PRINT.
OK, trying to be less speculative, I looked at the binary for
ALTAIR BASIC VERSION 3.2 [EIGHT-K VERSION]
that is included with Rich Cini's Altair emulator. At the end is the
list of the statement keywords. In memory each keyword abuts the next,
and the boundary between keywords is marked by setting the msb of the
byte. Here is the table in order:
END
FOR
NEXT
DATA
INPUT
DIM
READ
LET
GOTO
RUN
IF
RESTORE
GOSUB
RETURN
REM
STOP
OUT
ON
NULL
WAIT
DEF
POKE
PRINT
CONT
LIST
CLEAR
CLOAD
CSAVE
NEW
TAB(
Since there no room for storing a token value after each item (I know it
is possible that that mapping is held elsewhere, but it seems unlikely),
these keywords very likely have consecutive token values.
Elsewhere in the binary, near the beginning, is a similar table for the
functions (FN, SPC, NOT, AND, OR, VAL, CHR, LEFT, RIGHT, MID, FRE, SIN,
COS, TAN, PEEK, etc, but also including THEN, STEP).
Ever look at the saved files or in memory programs?
I also have 3.2 (the first no so buggy one).
Allison
Subject:
Re: BASIC's question mark and PRINT
From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:03:31 -0600
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
tim lindner wrote:
The ? was adopted by convention from the fact that early MS basic
(MITS BASIC) the ? was also the same value as the token for print.
Most of the non-compiled 8bit basics were tokenized in memory for
execution and storage and when "LIST"ed were detokenized to list as
Basic we know.
Allison In BASIC, where did the short cut of '?'
for PRINT originate?
After following a discussion on the CoCo list I thought I'd ask here.
Here are some bounds and data points.
The Dartmouth BASIC specification does not have ? as an abbrevation
(circa 1964).
I think all versions of Microsoft BASIC have this shortcut (circa 1975).
Palo Alto Tiny BASIC (li chen wang) didn't use this convention --
instead it used "P.".
Wang BASIC (circa 1972) didn't use this convention.
From what I can tell, DEC BASIC didn't use this abbreviation.
22 Nov
22 Nov
12:12 a.m.
Allison wrote:
Jim Battle wrote:
I tried using Rich that 3.2 version of basic on Altair32 but I wasn't able to
figure out how to get it to run (just like the real hardware, I'm sure!). I
then tried a somewhat later version of MS basic, version 4.7, on my Sol. The
in-memory token for PRINT is 164, or 0xA4.
How I determined that was as follows:
10 PRINT "aqzy"
20 FOR I=0 to 50000
30 IF PEEK(I)<>ASC("a") THEN 100
40 IF PEEK(I+1)<>ASC("q") THEN 100
50 IF PEEK(I+2)<>ASC("z") THEN 100
60 IF PEEK(I+3)<>ASC("y") THEN 100
70 FOR J=-6 TO 5
80 PRINT I+J, PEEK(I+J), CHR$(PEEK(I+J))
90 NEXT J:STOP
100 NEXT I
It finds itself and then prints the bytes of the line. The string may appear in
memory more than once due to the fact it might appear in an edit buffer or some
scratch space in addition to its program location.
Rich, if you can get your version 3.2 MS BASIC running on your Altair32 emulator
perhaps you can run the program and report what token is used for PRINT.
Allison wrote:
Allison, that seems unlikely. Later versions of microsoft basic
certainly didn't use any value lower than 0x80 for tokens. Even if
you could find a few characters in the "live" portion of the ascii
table that didn't lead to ambiguous parsing, I can't think of a good
reason why they'd do it -- there was enough room at 0x80 and above,
and not enough unused values below 0x80, so why have two lookup tables
when one would do?
It would seem much easier to have special case where '?' got mapped to
the token for PRINT.
OK, trying to be less speculative, I looked at the binary for
ALTAIR BASIC VERSION 3.2 [EIGHT-K VERSION]
that is included with Rich Cini's Altair emulator. At the end is the
list of the statement keywords. In memory each keyword abuts the
next, and the boundary between keywords is marked by setting the msb
of the byte. Here is the table in order:
END
FOR
NEXT
DATA
INPUT
DIM
READ
LET
GOTO
RUN
IF
RESTORE
GOSUB
RETURN
REM
STOP
OUT
ON
NULL
WAIT
DEF
POKE
PRINT
CONT
LIST
CLEAR
CLOAD
CSAVE
NEW
TAB(
Since there no room for storing a token value after each item (I know
it is possible that that mapping is held elsewhere, but it seems
unlikely), these keywords very likely have consecutive token values.
Elsewhere in the binary, near the beginning, is a similar table for
the functions (FN, SPC, NOT, AND, OR, VAL, CHR, LEFT, RIGHT, MID, FRE,
SIN, COS, TAN, PEEK, etc, but also including THEN, STEP).
Ever look at the saved files or in memory programs? Subject:
Re: BASIC's question mark and PRINT
From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:03:31 -0600
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
tim lindner wrote:
> In BASIC, where did the short cut of '?' for PRINT originate?
>
> After following a discussion on the CoCo list I thought I'd ask here.
>
Here are some bounds and data points.
The Dartmouth BASIC specification does not have ? as an abbrevation
(circa 1964).
I think all versions of Microsoft BASIC have this shortcut (circa
1975).
Palo Alto Tiny BASIC (li chen wang) didn't use this convention --
instead it used "P.".
Wang BASIC (circa 1972) didn't use this convention.
From what I can tell, DEC BASIC didn't use this abbreviation.
The ? was adopted by convention from the fact that early MS basic
(MITS BASIC) the ? was also the same value as the token for print.
Most of the non-compiled 8bit basics were tokenized in memory for
execution and storage and when "LIST"ed were detokenized to list as
Basic we know.
Allison 
11:22 a.m.
--- Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> wrote:
Rich, if you can get your version 3.2 MS BASIC
running on your Altair32 emulator
perhaps you can run the program and report what
token is used for PRINT.
Depending on the specific release, Microsoft used
different token values for many Basic keywords. For 4K
version 3.2, the token used for 'Print' was 90h. For
the 8K version 4.0 release, the token used was 96h.
For Extended Basic 4.1, it was 91h. And for the 680b
variation (which was essentially equivalent to 8k
version 3.2 for the 8080) the token for 'Print' was
95h.
Regarding the use of '?' for 'Print', he question mark
was not handled with it's own unique assigned token.
Early in the bit of code that 'tokenizes' a line,
there is an explicit check for a '?' after the line
number is processed (or as the first byte in direct
command mode) ...if found, the actual token for
'Print' is substituted, and it is processed
accordingly.
As new revisions of MS Basic were introduced, the
methodology used to interpret/process Basic tokens
evolved somewhat as well. There was mention previously
in this thread that token values less than 80h were
likely not used. This was indeed the case until
Extended Basic (and Extended Disk Basic) was released.
It was at that point that token values that were less
than 80h were used expressly for functions. In
addition, token values from F0h to FFh were used for
logic operations (AND, XOR, etc...).
Scott
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
11:54 a.m.
New subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
I'm looking to donate my vintage computer collection to a museum in
Delaware. The museum is a 501(c)3 educational foundation, so theoretically
my donation will be tax-deductible.
From what I'm reading though, it looks like I will
need to get the
collection appraised in order to properly take advantage of the tax
benefits.
Has anyone on the list had experience in this area? How do I go about
getting my collection valued?
Thanks!
-- Tony
1:31 p.m.
New subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
Sellam Ismail is your man. He no longer reads the list. He is a pro,
literally.
vcf at siconic.com is his email
Gil
A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director
The Museum at CSE
University of Texas at Arlington
Department of Computer Science & Engineering
Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street
Arlington, TX 76019
817-272-3620
http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Eros
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:54 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts';
'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'
Subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
I'm looking to donate my vintage computer collection to a
museum in Delaware. The museum is a 501(c)3 educational
foundation, so theoretically my donation will be tax-deductible.
From what I'm reading though, it looks like I
will need to get the
collection appraised in order to properly take advantage of
the tax benefits.
Has anyone on the list had experience in this area? How do I
go about getting my collection valued?
Thanks!
-- Tony
2:28 p.m.
New subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
People have been know to place antiques up on ebay
with $1,000,000 reserves to determine market value of
the antiques, not recommending that, but its been
done.
You could grab past ebay auctions of similar equipment
in similar condition. Final prices vary widely on
similar items, true, but if you are trying to
appraise 100 items it probably evens out.
Taking good pictures of your donations and printing
out the ebay auctions prices (with pictures) would
provide a good source of material if your audited. If
the pictures are taken by someone other then you, even
better.
Also, using the prices from the book "collectible
microcomputers" is another option.
I think want you want for difficult to price items
like this is multiple sources of price information,
current ebay prices (best), books, and appraisers. Of
course a good appraiser takes all this into account to
begin with, but its nice to have back up info.
--- Tony Eros <tony.eros at machm.org> wrote:
I'm looking to donate my vintage computer
collection
to a museum in
Delaware. The museum is a 501(c)3 educational
foundation, so theoretically
my donation will be tax-deductible.
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
From what I'm reading though, it looks like I
will
need to get the
collection appraised in order to properly take
advantage of the tax
benefits.
Has anyone on the list had experience in this area?
How do I go about
getting my collection valued?
Thanks!
-- Tony
4:48 p.m.
New subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
On 11/22/2005 at 11:54 AM Tony Eros wrote:
It depends a lot on the size and valuation of your collection and its
relationship to your overall tax bill. IOW, I've done perfectly legitimate
cash donations to 501(c)3's and got audited anyway.
If the valuation is modest, simply get a receipt from the organization that
calls out the amounts as they see them. Quite honestly, old computer
gear is one of those things that it's impossible to place an objective
value on. The best thing is for the recipient of your largesse to value it
at what they figure it would cost to otherwise acquire.
Also, remember that the tax deduction for donations can be amortized over 5
years, so don't be in a big hurry to take the writeoff in one year. You
want to avoid annoying those darned IRS computers.
Cheers,
Chuck
From what
I'm reading though, it looks like I will need to get the
collection appraised in
order to properly take advantage of the tax
benefits.
Has anyone on the list had experience in this area? How do I go about
getting my collection valued?
5:25 p.m.
New subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
I know our university prohibits me from making any evaluation of a "gift in
kind". I was under the impression that this was an IRS rule. Goggle turned
up this which I think is accurate:
"A gift of books to the MSUL will in most instances qualify as a charitable
deduction for income tax purposes. Librarians and staff of the MSUL cannot
make a monetary appraisal of donated materials, because such an appraisal
constitutes a conflict of interest. Federal law places the responsibility
for establishing the fair market value of a work donated to a not-for-profit
organization with the donor. The MSUL can assist donors by providing sources
of information for evaluation and appraisal purposes."
I usually suggest what an earlier post suggested - monitor eBay for
valuations. Once or twice I have emailed a donor of something really nice
(e.g. our two Altair's) an eBay result.
Gil
A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director
The Museum at CSE
University of Texas at Arlington
Department of Computer Science & Engineering
Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street
Arlington, TX 76019
817-272-3620
http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/
...
If the valuation is modest, simply get a receipt from
the
organization that
calls out the amounts as they see them. Quite honestly,
old computer
gear is one of those things that it's impossible to place an
objective value on. The best thing is for the recipient of
your largesse to value it at what they figure it would cost
to otherwise acquire.
...
23 Nov
23 Nov
9:28 p.m.
New subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
On 11/22/2005 at 4:25 PM A. G. Carrick wrote:
I usually suggest what an earlier post suggested -
monitor eBay for
valuations. Once or twice I have emailed a donor of something really nice
(e.g. our two Altair's) an eBay result.
Point taken, Gil, but a word of caution is in order when taking prices from
eBay. There are sellers who post items with ridiculously high
prices--(e.g. almost $100 for a DC-600 cart). When you use eBay for
valuation, be sure you quote SALE prices, not ASKING.
Come to think of it, I've got 2 CD's worth of eBay tuba auctions just for
that eventuality.
Cheers,
Chuck
22 Nov
22 Nov
7:33 p.m.
New subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
Museum's can NOT give pricing information to the donor, it's an IRS rule.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Appraisal and donating a collection
On 11/22/2005 at 11:54 AM Tony Eros wrote:
It depends a lot on the size and valuation of your collection and its
relationship to your overall tax bill. IOW, I've done perfectly
legitimate
cash donations to 501(c)3's and got audited anyway.
If the valuation is modest, simply get a receipt from the organization
that
calls out the amounts as they see them. Quite honestly, old computer
gear is one of those things that it's impossible to place an objective
value on. The best thing is for the recipient of your largesse to value
it
at what they figure it would cost to otherwise acquire.
Also, remember that the tax deduction for donations can be amortized over
5
years, so don't be in a big hurry to take the writeoff in one year. You
want to avoid annoying those darned IRS computers.
Cheers,
Chuck
From what
I'm reading though, it looks like I will need to get the
collection appraised in
order to properly take advantage of the tax
benefits.
Has anyone on the list had experience in this area? How do I go about
getting my collection valued?
9:14 p.m.
New subject: Appraisal and donating a collection
On 11/22/2005 at 6:33 PM Keys wrote:
Museum's can NOT give pricing information to the
donor, it's an IRS rule.
How much are we talking about here? I've never given anything to a museum
for tax credit, but have given musical instruments to schools. The
conversation went like this:
Me: I have a tuba for you.
Them: Cool. You want a receipt?
Me: That would be nice.
Them: How much should we make it out for?
Me: (Giving my best guess, relatively certain that I'll be backed up by
the local music store who know me very well)
Them: Here you go.
We're not talking about artworks here, are we? If the donation were in the
5- or 6-digit range, yes, I'd probably hire an appraiser. But there are
limits. It'd be plain silly to pay an appraiser $500 to appraise a gift
woth $100.
Cheers,
Chuck
6817
days inactive
6820
days old
13 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
ajp166＠bellatlantic.net -
cclist＠sydex.com -
frustum＠pacbell.net -
gcarrick＠cse.uta.edu -
gkicomputers＠yahoo.com -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
jrkeys＠concentric.net -
labomb_s＠yahoo.com -
tony.eros＠machm.org