11 Mar
2010
11 Mar
'10
4:32 p.m.
Suppose my power company claims that the charge is $0.02407 per
killowatt/hour. If I have a computer (or anything) that draws maybe 100
watts. that should be 0.1kw/h x 0.02407 x 24 hours = 5.7768 cents per day
or $1.73 a month. I've been under the impression for quite some time that
it costs $20 a month to run a typical modern desktop computer 24 hours a day
for a month. I know there are taxes and fees thrown into the power bill.
But what's wrong with my math? Was I wrong before or am I wrong now? I got
this kw/h price from the power company web site burried in a pdf somewhere.
It looked like the right price to me. Maybe the actual charge is much
higher?
brian
11 Mar
11 Mar
4:45 p.m.
Check your last bill, it is supposed to show the cost per kw/h used.
Also most power companies - due to deregulation, and sharing of their
power line infrastructure with competitors, charge a line usage fee
which is generally the same cost as your power costs - even if you use
the original power company - to make it fair, they too will charge the
line usage fee. (how it that fair?!?!?) So if your bill was $50 this
month, it is generally then $100 for the month, then the taxes, fees,
etc... get heaped ontop of that and before you know it you're paying
like $135 for your monthly bill...
Now, once Obama passes the "Cap & Kill Jobs" energy bill, expect your
energy costs to go up another 33% - oh joy!!! :-/
Curt
Brian Lanning wrote:
Suppose my power company claims that the charge is
$0.02407 per
killowatt/hour. If I have a computer (or anything) that draws maybe 100
watts. that should be 0.1kw/h x 0.02407 x 24 hours = 5.7768 cents per day
or $1.73 a month. I've been under the impression for quite some time that
it costs $20 a month to run a typical modern desktop computer 24 hours a day
for a month. I know there are taxes and fees thrown into the power bill.
But what's wrong with my math? Was I wrong before or am I wrong now? I got
this kw/h price from the power company web site burried in a pdf somewhere.
It looked like the right price to me. Maybe the actual charge is much
higher?
brian
4:52 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum
<curt at atarimuseum.com>wrote:
Check your last bill, it is supposed to show the cost
per kw/h used. Also
most power companies - due to deregulation, and sharing of their power line
infrastructure with competitors, charge a line usage fee which is generally
the same cost as your power costs - even if you use the original power
company - to make it fair, they too will charge the line usage fee. (how it
that fair?!?!?) So if your bill was $50 this month, it is generally then
$100 for the month, then the taxes, fees, etc... get heaped ontop of that
and before you know it you're paying like $135 for your monthly bill...
Now, once Obama passes the "Cap & Kill Jobs" energy bill, expect your
energy costs to go up another 33% - oh joy!!! :-/
I don't have a power bill handy. My wife has all that. I sent her an email
asking for the real number. That number above I got from their website.
I found another site that showed power cost charge averages across the
country. For our area it's really something like 8.3c a kw/h. So that
makes some sense.
I doubt cap & trade will pass. Too many people are pissed at congress and
they're already worried about reelection over the health care thing.
brian
5:48 p.m.
Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Check your last bill, it is supposed to show the cost
per kw/h used.
Also most power companies - due to deregulation, and sharing of their
power line infrastructure with competitors, charge a line usage fee
which is generally the same cost as your power costs - even if you use
the original power company - to make it fair, they too will charge the
line usage fee. (how it that fair?!?!?) So if your bill was $50 this
month, it is generally then $100 for the month, then the taxes, fees,
etc... get heaped ontop of that and before you know it you're paying
like $135 for your monthly bill...
Now, once Obama passes the "Cap & Kill Jobs" energy bill, expect your
energy costs to go up another 33% - oh joy!!!
I dislike it when people inject politics into the hobby. I know how how
to read my bill, so does everyone here in PA who has Duquense Light and
Equitable Gas. The Power AND Natural Gas have surged nearly 100% , yes
that's DOUBLE than what it was in the past 8yrs (versus the prior
decade) under the artificial energy crisis they led us to believe back
then--all while being regulated. Now that we have deregulation, not only
are we get better competing offers, our company *also* has been getting
competing offers which is already providing a substantial savings. So
screw the established power monopolies
=Dan
4:47 p.m.
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Brian Lanning wrote:
Suppose my power company claims that the charge is
$0.02407 per
killowatt/hour. If I have a computer (or anything) that draws maybe 100
watts. that should be 0.1kw/h x 0.02407 x 24 hours = 5.7768 cents per day
or $1.73 a month. I've been under the impression for quite some time that
it costs $20 a month to run a typical modern desktop computer 24 hours a day
for a month. I know there are taxes and fees thrown into the power bill.
But what's wrong with my math? Was I wrong before or am I wrong now? I got
this kw/h price from the power company web site burried in a pdf somewhere.
It looked like the right price to me. Maybe the actual charge is much
higher?
Brian, you might want to get yourself a gadget called a "Kill-A-Watt".
You can plug your PC's power strip into it and see exactly how much power
your computer consumes. They cost about $25.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
5:02 p.m.
At 10:47 AM 3/11/2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
Brian, you might want to get yourself a gadget called a
"Kill-A-Watt". You can plug your PC's power strip into it and see exactly
how much power your computer consumes. They cost about $25.
These devices might also be available on loan from your public library
or energy utility.
That darn socialism! A friend of mine put some of those death panels
on his roof last fall and he says his energy bill went down 25% this winter.
- John
5:28 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:02 AM, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
At 10:47 AM 3/11/2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
I can believe it. My wife called back. We're paying 12c a kw/h. I guess
my math wasn't so far off.
brian
Brian, you might want to get yourself a gadget
called a "Kill-A-Watt". You
can plug your PC's power strip into it
and see exactly how much power your
computer consumes. They cost about $25.
These devices might also be available on loan from your public library
or energy utility.
That darn socialism! A friend of mine put some of those death panels
on his roof last fall and he says his energy bill went down 25% this
winter.
5:36 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2010, at 12:28 PM, Brian Lanning wrote:
I can believe it. My wife called back. We're paying 12c a kw/h.
I guess
my math wasn't so far off.
Wow, that's pretty high! Where are you?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Brian, you might want to get yourself a gadget called
a "Kill-A-
Watt". You
can plug your PC's power strip into it and see exactly how
much
power your
computer consumes. They cost about $25.
These devices might also be available on loan from your public
library
or energy utility.
That darn socialism! A friend of mine put some of those death panels
on his roof last fall and he says his energy bill went down 25% this
winter.
5:52 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>wrote:
I can believe it. My wife called back. We're
paying 12c a kw/h. I guess
Wow, that's pretty high! Where are you?
Chicago suburb. We have a nuke plant like 30 minutes away too. I'm not
surprised though. There's probably some stupid local tax on power so
someone can collect a pension while being hired back to do the same job at
their old salary.
brian
6:03 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com>wrote:
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com>wrote:
Turns out she calculated that number from the after-tax bill amount. So
that includes all the taxes and fees also. She says all the taxes and fees
are based on kw/h anyway, so it's a reliable number. It might end up being
a little less though depending on how they calculate the taxes.
brian
I can believe it. My wife called back.
We're paying 12c a kw/h. I guess
Wow, that's pretty high! Where are you?
Chicago suburb. We have a nuke plant like 30 minutes away too. I'm not
surprised though. There's probably some stupid local tax on power so
someone can collect a pension while being hired back to do the same job at
their old salary.
6:08 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Brian Lanning wrote:
Ugh, unbelievable. :-(
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I can believe
it. My wife called back. We're paying 12c a kw/h.
I guess
Wow, that's pretty high! Where are you?
Chicago suburb. We have a nuke plant like 30 minutes away too.
I'm not
surprised though. There's probably some stupid local tax on power so
someone can collect a pension while being hired back to do the same
job at
their old salary. 
6:19 p.m.
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Mar 11, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Brian Lanning wrote:
I saw the same thing in the Military. When I worked at a Mainframe site in
DC, our DBA was this elderly gentleman. Due to the Labor rules they had
been forced to retire him, and they then immediatly rehired him as a
contractor.
Zane
Chicago suburb. We have a nuke plant like 30
minutes away too. I'm not
surprised though. There's probably some stupid local tax on power so
someone can collect a pension while being hired back to do the same job at
their old salary.
Ugh, unbelievable. :-(
6:52 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Mar 11, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Brian Lanning wrote:
I saw the same thing in the Military. When I worked at a Mainframe site in
DC, our DBA was this elderly gentleman. Due to the Labor rules they had
been forced to retire him, and they then immediatly rehired him as a
contractor.
This is a huge source of the financial problems in california...
firefighters making $200k a year. I don't hate them though. They're making
the right amount. We should be getting what they are. And we would be if
wages had followed the declining dollar.
I'm sure that sort of thing is going on here in illinois.
There reason I'm asking about power consumption is related to the
hydroponics thing I asked about the other day. I've been shutting off
computers lately to save power. And I was thinking about ways to have a
computer control the hydroponics. Unfortunately, it looks like the lighting
will be really expensive. You need 30 to 50 watts of light per square foot
of plant crown. That makes it between 480 and 800 watts for a 4'x4' area.
I'm wondering if I could come up with an algorithm that controls plant
nutrients and lighting with a finer degree of control than just on at this
time and off at another. Maybe I could tune the system save money on the
lights and actually increase yield in the process, or adjust the distance
Chicago suburb. We have a nuke plant like 30
minutes away too. I'm not
surprised though. There's probably some stupid local tax on power so
someone can collect a pension while being hired back to do the same job
at
their old salary.
Ugh, unbelievable. :-(
from the lighting vs reduced light per unit area.. It
would be really cool
to run it on an apple 2e or c64. :-)
brian
9:54 p.m.
Brian Lanning wrote:
There reason I'm asking about power consumption is
related to the
hydroponics thing I asked about the other day. I've been shutting off
computers lately to save power. And I was thinking about ways to have a
computer control the hydroponics. Unfortunately, it looks like the lighting
will be really expensive. You need 30 to 50 watts of light per square foot
of plant crown. That makes it between 480 and 800 watts for a 4'x4' area.
Just grow marijuana. The return on your investment makes it easy to
justify using all the power on the lights.
I found it interesting that power companies report potentially violators
to the police because their power usage patterns aren't typical --
especially overnight.
Keith
9:57 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Keith <keithvz at verizon.net> wrote:
Just grow marijuana. The return on your investment
makes it easy to
justify using all the power on the lights.
I found it interesting that power companies report potentially violators to
the police because their power usage patterns aren't typical -- especially
overnight.
I heard that the DEA has helicopters that fly around looking for light of a
certain wavelength (probably high pressure sodium) leaking from buildings,
then show up and raid the place.
When the cops show up, I'll offer them a tomato.
brian
10:06 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:01 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote:
Why would that be a mistake? They'll be standing in the basement next to
the tomato plant. If they just show up at the door, I'll ask where the
warrant is. But I doubt they'll bother themselves with a little formality
like that.
brian
When the cops
show up, I'll offer them a tomato.
That would be a mistake. Big mistake.
11:15 p.m.
Why would that be a mistake? ?They'll be standing
in the basement next to
the tomato plant. ?If they just show up at the door, I'll ask where the
warrant is. ?But I doubt they'll bother themselves with a little formality
like that.
Have you noticed that quite a few hydroponics supplies dealers tend to
do a LOT of tomato business?
--
Will
11:19 p.m.
I know a few people who raise plants in apartments. In the summer they have
them out in pots out back, in the winter they don't have enough (or any)
window space so they use a bunch of grow lights to keep them alive.
People do use grow lights for things other then growing pot.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: calculating electricity costs
Why would that be a mistake? They'll be standing
in the basement next to
the tomato plant. If they just show up at the door, I'll ask where the
warrant is. But I doubt they'll bother themselves with a little formality
like that.
Have you noticed that quite a few hydroponics supplies dealers tend to
do a LOT of tomato business?
--
Will
10:03 p.m.
On a somewhat related topic, my dad is a helicopter instructor pilot for the Air Force. He
has said that in the past he'd fly over a large field of corn, and see (ahem)
something else planted smack dab in the middle.
On Mar 11, 2010, at 3:57 PM, Brian Lanning wrote:
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Keith <keithvz at
verizon.net> wrote:
Just grow marijuana. The return on your
investment makes it easy to
justify using all the power on the lights.
I found it interesting that power companies report potentially violators to
the police because their power usage patterns aren't typical -- especially
overnight.
I heard that the DEA has helicopters that fly around looking for light of a
certain wavelength (probably high pressure sodium) leaking from buildings,
then show up and raid the place.
When the cops show up, I'll offer them a tomato.
brian
10:08 p.m.
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Brian Lanning wrote:
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Keith <keithvz at
verizon.net> wrote:
...and then sue them for illegal search. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Just grow marijuana. The return on your
investment makes it easy to
justify using all the power on the lights.
I found it interesting that power companies report potentially violators to
the police because their power usage patterns aren't typical -- especially
overnight.
I heard that the DEA has helicopters that fly around looking for light of a
certain wavelength (probably high pressure sodium) leaking from buildings,
then show up and raid the place.
When the cops show up, I'll offer them a tomato.
11:08 p.m.
On 11/03/2010 21:57, Brian Lanning wrote:
I heard that the DEA has helicopters that fly around
looking for light of a
certain wavelength (probably high pressure sodium) leaking from buildings,
then show up and raid the place.
A couple of years ago the police here raided a colleague's house because
the police helicopter's IR cameras showed the house as emitting a lot of
energy, and that's a sign of cannabis farms. In fact, rather
embarrassingly, it was just a case of poor insulation.
I doubt the DEA's choppers are actually looking for visible light --
just "bright" infrared emission.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2474184/Poor-insulation-led-to-drugs-raid-o…
or if you want to see pictures from the chopper IR camera
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1039768/Police-raid-home-Blunkett-B…
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
10 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
(from Nov 2009)
I pay about $0.12 here too. How's this high? US average is $0.1133 ?
Hawaii pays $0.26. Now that's high. :)
Keith
I can believe
it. My wife called back. We're paying 12c a kw/h. I
guess
my math wasn't so far off.
Wow, that's pretty high! Where are you?
-Dave
10:03 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Keith wrote:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
(from Nov 2009)
I pay about $0.12 here too. How's this high? US average is $0.1133 ?
Hawaii pays $0.26. Now that's high. :)
High compared to me, at about $0.09/kWh. I don't really care to
keep up with the national averages.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I can believe it. My wife called back. We're
paying 12c a kw/
h. I guess
my math wasn't so far off.
Wow, that's pretty high! Where are you?
-Dave 
12 Mar
12 Mar
1:59 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Keith wrote:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
(from Nov 2009)
I pay about $0.12 here too. How's this high? US average is $0.1133 ?
Hawaii pays $0.26. Now that's high. :)
High compared to me, at about $0.09/kWh.
Yeah, that's what ours it too, although all the stuff on off-peak comes in at
$0.04/kWh (but I'm restricted in what devices I can hook up to that - unless I
could get the electric company to classify a mainframe as a resistive space
heater ;-)
cheers
Jules
I can believe it. My wife called back. We're
paying 12c a kw/h. I
guess
my math wasn't so far off.
Wow, that's pretty high! Where are you?
-Dave
5:37 p.m.
On Mar 12, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
High compared to me, at about
$0.09/kWh.
Yeah, that's what ours it too, although all the stuff on off-peak
comes in at $0.04/kWh (but I'm restricted in what devices I can
hook up to that - unless I could get the electric company to
classify a mainframe as a resistive space heater ;-)
Possibly an "irresistible space heater". ;) So I assume they want
loads at a power factor of 1 to get the better rate?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
> I can
believe it. My wife called back. We're paying 12c a kw/
> h. I guess
> my math wasn't so far off.
Wow, that's pretty high! Where are you?
-Dave
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
(from Nov 2009)
I pay about $0.12 here too. How's this high? US average is
$0.1133 ?
Hawaii pays $0.26. Now that's high. :)
11 Mar
11 Mar
5:31 p.m.
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, John Foust wrote:
At 10:47 AM 3/11/2010, Gene Buckle wrote:
It's easier to scare 'em with boogey men than it is to make 'em think.
:)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Brian, you might want to get yourself a gadget
called a "Kill-A-Watt". You can plug your PC's power strip into it and see
exactly how much power your computer consumes. They cost about $25.
These devices might also be available on loan from your public library
or energy utility.
That darn socialism! A friend of mine put some of those death panels
on his roof last fall and he says his energy bill went down 25% this winter.
5:36 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2010, at 12:02 PM, John Foust wrote:
"Death panels"??
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Brian, you
might want to get yourself a gadget called a "Kill-A-
Watt". You can plug your PC's power strip into it and see exactly
how much power your computer consumes. They cost about $25.
These devices might also be available on loan from your public library
or energy utility.
That darn socialism! A friend of mine put some of those death panels
on his roof last fall and he says his energy bill went down 25%
this winter. 
5:53 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: calculating electricity costs
Suppose my power company claims that the charge is $0.02407 per
killowatt/hour. If I have a computer (or anything) that draws maybe
100
watts. that should be 0.1kw/h x 0.02407 x 24 hours = 5.7768 cents per
day
or $1.73 a month. I've been under the impression for quite some time
that
it costs $20 a month to run a typical modern desktop computer 24 hours
a day
for a month. I know there are taxes and fees thrown into the power
bill.
But what's wrong with my math? Was I wrong before or am I wrong now?
I got
this kw/h price from the power company web site burried in a pdf
somewhere.
It looked like the right price to me. Maybe the actual charge is much
higher?
brian
Here in Seattle, they charge progressively: 4.39 cents per kWh for the first 10 (summer
rate) or 16 (winter rate) kWh per day, then 9.14 cents per kWh for everything past that.
You're right, that sure seems to add up quickly. I have one of those inline meters
that not only tells me the rate of consumption but also allows me to accumulate it over a
period of time for periodic consumption (like a refrigerator, that cycles on and off).
It's been helpful in terms of making decisions regarding 'optional' equipment
- like the dual-proc Alpha machine that draws 250 watts.... -- Ian
6:07 p.m.
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Ian King wrote:
off). It's been helpful in terms of making
decisions regarding 'optional'
equipment - like the dual-proc Alpha machine that draws 250 watts.... --
Ian
It really hurt to make the decision I made this week when I discovered the
powersupply on my Compaq Alpha XP1000/667 died over the weekend, but I
pulled the plug on it and my VAXstation 4000/60. I'll soon pull the plug on
my UNIX server as well (though I might at a later date replace it with a
low-power Mini-ITX system).
As I have a spare XP1000, the deciding factor was electricity and cooling
costs. This will seriously cut our electricity bill, which took a sizable
jump once I got my servers back online, and it will save me from having to
setup some form of cooling prior to summer hitting.
I will get the XP1000 working again soon, but only so I can recover data off
of it. From now on it will only be powered on when I need it. :-(
Zane
6:31 p.m.
On 11 Mar 2010 at 10:07, Zane H. Healy wrote:
I will get the XP1000 working again soon, but only so
I can recover
data off of it. From now on it will only be powered on when I need
it. :-(
I was working over a 4U rackmount industrial PC that had an ATX PSU
in it. This had a supposedly "hard" power-off rocker switch and the
PSU even has an IEC socket on it for powering other equipment, such
as a monitor. So, I figured that the power switch was a real one,
that disconnected the PSU from the AC line.
Imagine my surprise when I put my hand on the PSU case that had been
powered off for two days and found it to be warm. It turns out that,
just like the 'soft-power" ATX supplies, it keeps a small DC voltage
on continuously. The secondary power outlet is switched by means of
a relay.
Fortunately, the thing usually is plugged into an IEC power strip
that's controlled from a master switch on the rack, so it normally
doesn't matter. I had the unit out on the bench and plugged in for
testing.
I really miss the BRS on PCs, when "off" really meant "off".
--Chuck
7:15 p.m.
Thats a problem I have with my Mindset computers. You have to put them
on switched power strips, otherwise even when off, you can put you hand
along the side of the case and it feels physically warm as the p/s is
still quite active.
Curt
On 3/11/2010 1:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 11 Mar 2010 at 10:07, Zane H. Healy wrote:
I will get the XP1000 working again soon, but
only so I can recover
data off of it. From now on it will only be powered on when I need
it. :-(
I was working over a 4U rackmount industrial PC that had an ATX PSU
in it. This had a supposedly "hard" power-off rocker switch and the
PSU even has an IEC socket on it for powering other equipment, such
as a monitor. So, I figured that the power switch was a real one,
that disconnected the PSU from the AC line.
Imagine my surprise when I put my hand on the PSU case that had been
powered off for two days and found it to be warm. It turns out that,
just like the 'soft-power" ATX supplies, it keeps a small DC voltage
on continuously. The secondary power outlet is switched by means of
a relay.
Fortunately, the thing usually is plugged into an IEC power strip
that's controlled from a master switch on the rack, so it normally
doesn't matter. I had the unit out on the bench and plugged in for
testing.
I really miss the BRS on PCs, when "off" really meant "off".
--Chuck
5412
days inactive
5413
days old
33 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
brianlanning＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
IanK＠vulcan.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
keithvz＠verizon.net -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
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pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
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wdonzelli＠gmail.com