Technology = applied knowledge, therefore a desire to attain knowledge and use technology. Now, unfortunately, people know that there is no reason to make a good product because a) Noone makes good products b) They won't be proud of it anyway because the product won't be noticed in the face of estabilished stuff. People try, but the age of hacking is gone. Right now, there is just nothing exciting in the computing industry. Wait till holographic memory, and so on. As for people who think that they are "hackers" and all they can do is use a Wardialer, I think they just need to feel proud of something they do. These are mainly people who have no other way of supporting themselves morally/emotionally. As the Unabomber would say, "They have a disruption in their power process". What really doesn't help is the "Hackers Manifesto", which pretends to imply that the hackers are "fighting for a cause" of "freedom of information". If you ask me, these "modern", "new age" ideas of freedom and community will invariably lead to either something like the USSR or the USA. The USSR is unquestionably a disaster in so many ways, and the USA is, in my opinion, getting there. Ok, kiddies, back on topic now... :) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com