12 Mar
1999
12 Mar
'99
5:01 p.m.
Hi!
I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only
non-IBM
(compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80
model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I
haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c).
What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any
of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one
of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and
indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it?
ThAnX,
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
12 Mar
12 Mar
2:50 p.m.
I can say a bit on altairs (others will fill in more I'm sure <grin>). Altairs
were programmed with binary coding. So you set each switch up/down for the
binary, then toggled an accept switch, then went on to the next "line" of your
program. Extremely slow to put in a program.
Thats why quickly, people built addons that would allow for disk drives/tape
drives/paper drives.
As for keyboards, I have heard of one, not positive it actually ever existed
(someone might know).
Monitors weren't largely used. Most of the time a teletype terminal system
would be used (where instead of a screen, your output is typed on a large roll
of paper). I know that they did add the ability to hook to a monitor/t.v.
later.
A good book on that era, is Stan Veits "History of the personal computer". One
of the reasons I like it, is Stan was one of the first computer shop owners in
New York city, at the time Altairs were coming out. He describes many of the
different machines of the time in this book, and his experiences with them (fun
reading for someone interested in vintage computers). If you want a copy, let
me know and I'll e-mail you the bookstore's website.
As for more information, this list is good for hearing information, and also, if
you do a websearch on vintage computers, you'll find websites devoted to the
older computers.
And last, remember, that you did work on some older computers :) The IIc, and
the Tandy are computers, that most people today don't even realize ever existed
:)
Noel
Jason Willgruber wrote:
Hi!
I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only
non-IBM
(compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80
model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I
haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c).
What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any
of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one
of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and
indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it?
ThAnX,
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
3 p.m.
A good book on that era, is Stan Veits "History of the personal computer".
One
of the reasons I like it, is Stan was one of the first computer shop owners in
New York city, at the time Altairs were coming out. He describes many of the
different machines of the time in this book, and his experiences with them (fun
reading for someone interested in vintage computers). If you want a copy, let
me know and I'll e-mail you the bookstore's website.
They've been trying to sell those books for $3 each on ebay. They had about
a thousand in think ;)
And yes, i bought a copy.
-Lawrence LeMay
PS: With Doug gone, i wonder who will complain that I gave away something
they planned to bid on at ebay...
2:53 p.m.
Hi!
I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only
non-IBM
(compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80
model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I
haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c).
What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any
of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one
of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and
indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it?
Wow, do you want the one or two paragraph history of computing as we know it?
Maybe Moore's law explains it best, every couple of years computers get
twice as fast, for half the money and size. Now Start with a typical
present day Pentibum II 400 Mhz 128 MB ram 10 GB hard drive that sells for
$2000 and go back in time 20 years (about 10 of Moore's cycles). Computers
were 1000 times slower, bigger, and more expensive. That was a different
world, and you had to treat such valuable resources differently. People,
and really only a small favored few, had to share the computers, and time
24 hours a day was highly prized.
Around 1970 a computer about as powerfull as a present day $100 calculator
cost about $10 million and required a large secure and temperature
controlled room. That was the mainstream of mainframe computers. The
computer was the size of a kids play house, and all around it in the large
room were "peripherals" designed to keep the main cpu busy working all the
time.
Away from the main IBM oriented data processing shops, dozens of smaller
companies fought for the minicomputer market. Smaller, and less powerfull
in absolute terms, these units were targeted at the scientific and
industrial users who needed the computational or control that only
computers allowed. Minicomputers weren't that different from mainframes,
just scaled down in some senses, and optimized in others.
Digital Equipment Corporation, DEC was one of these minicomputer companies,
and its PDP line was hugely popular in many areas. Industry, banking,
telephone, and most important universities. The DEC PDP series became the
platform that many computer scientists experiemented on, and many students
still didn't get to use. As Moores law improved the lot, the VAX line came
out, and people logged on with gusto forever after.
Oh, those switches and lights are mostly because the hardware and software
used to screw up fairly often, and by looking at the lights, and flipping
switches the operation of the computer could be single stepped (one
instruction per button push) and errors identified so they could be
corrected.
2:25 p.m.
On 12 Mar 99 at 17:53, Mike Ford wrote:
Wow, great thread. Thanks Jason.
I tend to think of the evolution of computers in physical relation to myself.
In an incarnation in the mid-fifties, I worked for a large government
department as a "junior IBM operator" I worked sorting IBM cards, reproducing
cards that were "bent, mutillated, and spindalled", and wired peg-boards to
interpret the data contained on those cards, which were "punched" by a
room-full of typist "punch-card operators". Even tho this was a large gov.
apparatus, the machines could only be "leased" not bought from IBM and
even some programs were rented. In a temperature-controlled room
filled with machines spinning large metal tape-reels were the "high priests"
of this genre. I never entered that room. It had windows where you could see
the esoteric operatives at work.
In the 70's I worked for a large railway keeping track of boxcars entering and
leaving the Yard. I would write up a report each day and submit it to the
computer room. Again, a temperature and environment controlled room, but
the "priests" were fellow workers who, tho aloof, I could talk to. And I could
even enter the "temple"
Fast forward to the early eighties in a tech school.
Each student had a terminal ID to access the main computers but they were
at another location which I never saw. The school could even have been renting
service space from another provider. But in the course I actually used a real
computer more or less, an ET3400, to explore the godlike ways. We also had
a trainer in which you could enter and step thru each program using switches
with LED indicators. In a tech-course a few years later I was introduced to
floppydisks using an Osbourne. We smoked and drank cokes using them.
To me the great flowering of the 8-bits was the demystifying of computer
arts. Unfortunately, I feel OS2, Win9x, and NT are removing us from
that control ,as against the "high Priests" of VAX. It's amusing to
remember that my professors looked blank when I asked them about Unix
in 83 after reading about it in "Electronics" magazine. I explained it as
simply a method of disk storage organisation and access.
Altho the computer world has changed mightily I think the "deification"
remains with the minis and mainframes and Unix is it's theology. I
appreciate Linux precisely because it has an empowering feel to it.
That is the glory of the personal computer.
I have a PDP-8 maintenance manual and an IBM VS360/370 programmers
manual and at some point I will study them. But neither can give me the joy of
an old "populist" 8-bit programming manual, with a code-bloatless program to
automate your toaster on a 64k ram machine. That was elegance.
Flame away.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Hi!
I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only
non-IBM
(compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80
model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I
haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c).
What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any
of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one
of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and
indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it?
Wow, do you want the one or two paragraph history of computing as we know it?
Maybe Moore's law explains it best, every couple of years computers get
twice as fast, for half the money and size. Now Start with a typical
present day Pentibum II 400 Mhz 128 MB ram 10 GB hard drive that sells for
$2000 and go back in time 20 years (about 10 of Moore's cycles). Computers
were 1000 times slower, bigger, and more expensive. That was a different
world, and you had to treat such valuable resources differently. People,
and really only a small favored few, had to share the computers, and time
24 hours a day was highly prized.
Around 1970 a computer about as powerfull as a present day $100 calculator
cost about $10 million and required a large secure and temperature
controlled room. That was the mainstream of mainframe computers. The
computer was the size of a kids play house, and all around it in the large
room were "peripherals" designed to keep the main cpu busy working all the
time.
Away from the main IBM oriented data processing shops, dozens of smaller
companies fought for the minicomputer market. Smaller, and less powerfull
in absolute terms, these units were targeted at the scientific and
industrial users who needed the computational or control that only
computers allowed. Minicomputers weren't that different from mainframes,
just scaled down in some senses, and optimized in others.
Digital Equipment Corporation, DEC was one of these minicomputer companies,
and its PDP line was hugely popular in many areas. Industry, banking,
telephone, and most important universities. The DEC PDP series became the
platform that many computer scientists experiemented on, and many students
still didn't get to use. As Moores law improved the lot, the VAX line came
out, and people logged on with gusto forever after.
Oh, those switches and lights are mostly because the hardware and software
used to screw up fairly often, and by looking at the lights, and flipping
switches the operation of the computer could be single stepped (one
instruction per button push) and errors identified so they could be
corrected.
3:17 p.m.
Oh, those switches and lights are mostly because the
hardware and software
used to screw up fairly often, and by looking at the lights, and flipping
switches the operation of the computer could be single stepped (one
instruction per button push) and errors identified so they could be
corrected.
Depends on the computer system also. On the Honeywell DPS-8 we had all
kinds of Blinken Lights and Flippen Switches, but they were for setting the
configuration of the system. Using them we could tell it how many
processors, what memory banks, and drives to talk to, etc.
Let's not forget the Rotary number switches, I've operated at least 3
different computers that had them. Although the computer controlling the
engineering plant of a Oliver Hazzard Perry Class Frigate wouldn't be
recognized by most as a computer.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
3:08 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote:
I've been growing up in the age of "IBM
era" of computers. The only non-IBM
(compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80
model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I
haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c).
The //c is hardly pre-80s. It was born almost the same year you were!
What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a
VAX, or an Altair, or any
of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one
of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and
indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it?
You could add a keyboard and monitor to it. Or a dumb terminal over a
serial port. Older computers like the PDPs and Vaxen normally had dumb
terminals as their standard form of input/output.
The switches are there for actually programming the machines in binary or
octal. You flip the switches in the binary pattern of ones and zeroes,
and then uie another switch to "deposit" the value on the switches into a
memory address. The LEDs output a binary pattern. You must know how to
read binary (and convert it to decimal perhaps, or something more
symbolic) to understand what the meaning is. The numbers displayed on the
LEDs in binary are the machine's actual code. The ones and zeroes make
up numbers that represent operations in the processor, or values contained
inside accumulators and registers.
You need to start looking for older computer texts from the 60s and 70s to
better understand what computers were like before you came along.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
3:13 p.m.
Jason,
I glanced at your web page -- do you live in Pittsburgh? Try to befriend
someone at CMU who will let you into the SCS machine room. There used to be
a glorious collection of old hardware on the third floor...
- Joe
"The thing's hollow -- it goes on forever -- and, oh my God, it's full of
stars!"
4:22 p.m.
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5:33 p.m.
I think the best way to answer your question Jason instead of everyone
telling their own little story of what computers were like back in the old
days is for you to go out and start picking up old computer texts at used
bookstores and read up on them. You will learn a lot, and you will be
fascinated by what you learn.
<PLUG=SHAMELESS>
Also, start planning to come to the Vintage Computer Festival this year.
You will absorb all sorts of wonderful information from the speakers and
fellow attendees, and you'll be wowed by the exhibits.
</PLUG>
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
14 Mar
14 Mar
4:14 a.m.
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote:
What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a
VAX, or an Altair, or any
of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one
of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and
indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it?
The PDPs were DEC's series of processors. The PDP-8 and -11 were most
successful. The processors were used in a wide variety of machines. The
VAX is DEC's first 32-bit machine. It used an OS called VMS, which some
people like a lot for some reason, to the point of still using it. I heard
that NT has a lot of VMS engineers behind it. An Altair is an early 8-bit
machine based on the Intel 8080 processor. It used the S-100 bus and was
analogous to the IBM PC in what it did to the PC market. It usually came
as a kit and was poorly designed/unreliable. Although the Altair used some
medieval methods of programming, in later machines like the IMSAI, one
would generally use a dumb terminal and resort to the front panel for
debugging purposes. OK, now you may correct everything I said :)
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
5:31 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
At 10:14 AM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
It is always amusing to note how the newbies denigrate the past practices
without considering that if those practices did not exist, and people had
not mastered them, then the art would not have advanced to the level that
it is today...
Of course... After the next (in progress even now perhaps) rennissance in
computing, I suspect people will be making similar comments about the
'bloat-ware' level of programming that is prevalent in the masses today,
which allows nearly anyone with minimal experience and training to write
mediocre code which is readily accepted by the mass audience (while at the
same time being held in great disdain by those occupying the higher levels
of the art).
<only somewhat tongue-in-cheek>
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
> Although the Altair used some medieval
methods of programming...
in later machines like the IMSAI, one would generally use
a dumb terminal
and resort to the front panel for debugging purposes.
7:52 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote:
It is always amusing to note how the newbies denigrate
the past practices
without considering that if those practices did not exist, and people had
not mastered them, then the art would not have advanced to the level that
it is today...
Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far,
paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
16 Mar
16 Mar
4:19 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far,
paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic]
Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-)
- John
5:12 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote:
At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
GORT?!? Looks like its time to start offering paper tape in the 'Computer
Garage' store...
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far,
paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic]
Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-)
6:35 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote:
You mean RARE Altair IMSAI Paper Tape?
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
GORT?!? Looks like its time to start offering paper tape in the 'Computer
Garage' store...
Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far,
paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic]
Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) 
6:51 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
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6:52 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
Hi All
I have been playing with the Tiny Basic on my
Poly88. I have found an only listing of version 3.0
in a book. I've disassembled the code on in my machine
and have been putting meaningful lables into it. It
isn't finished yet but I'll let those who are interested
know when it is done.
I am also looking for anyone with programs written
for Tiny Basic. I once remember having a Startrek and
a hamarobi game but that is all. I'd like to put together
a collections.
I did a search of the net for Tiny Basic and only found
references to the history of Tiny Basic and some site
that had something called Tiny Basic that was only 7K!
I guess they missed the point, it ain't tiny unless it
is smaller than 2K. Lets get real, 7K is only 1K smaller
than 8K which is a standard sized basic.
Dwight
7:12 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote:
I did a search of the net for Tiny Basic and only
found
references to the history of Tiny Basic and some site
that had something called Tiny Basic that was only 7K!
I guess they missed the point, it ain't tiny unless it
is smaller than 2K. Lets get real, 7K is only 1K smaller
than 8K which is a standard sized basic.
Hey Dwight. I was poking around the Usenet last night and found this web
site:
The AisnotA Code Archive
http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/
Has KIM-1, SOl-20, ZX-81, VIC-20, 8080, 8051 and 8052 code free for
download.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
7:26 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
Hi Dwight and all,
At 09:52 AM 3/16/99 -0800, you wrote:
Hi All
I have been playing with the Tiny Basic on my
Poly88. I have found an only listing of version 3.0
in a book. I've disassembled the code on in my machine
and have been putting meaningful lables into it. It
isn't finished yet but I'll let those who are interested
know when it is done.
See if you can find the book "PCC's Reference book of
Personal and Home
Computing". It has an article and the commented source of Palo Alto Tiny
Basic, for 8080 and Z-80 by Li-Chen Wang. It is version 3 and is later then
the one printed in an early Dr. Dobbs.
Is this what you've found?
-Dave
10:11 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
Dave Dameron <ddameron(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
See if you can find the book "PCC's Reference
book of Personal and Home
Computing". It has an article and the commented source of Palo Alto Tiny
Basic, for 8080 and Z-80 by Li-Chen Wang. It is version 3 and is later then
the one printed in an early Dr. Dobbs.
Is this what you've found?
-Dave
Hi Dave
This is the one I found. It seems quite similar to the
version I have. It has been quite helpful on filling in
info. The book as a hole doesn't have much other than
the listing. The PROMs I have were specifically tuned to work with
the Poly88 ( a S-100, 8080 machine, credited as being
the first front panel-less S-100 machine, two switches,
power and reset but no turbo ).
The place Sellam mentioned has a file ( tbas-cod.zip )
that has all kinds of programs and an assembly listing
for an extended TBI that was on his machine. It was
an Altair 8800 so for those that have these, here is a
ready to run version ( adapted from vers 1.0 ).
All good fun!
Dwight
22 Mar
22 Mar
6:32 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
Hi Dave
I thought I'm mention that I found an add for the
Poly88 in the back of the PCC's Reference as well.
Check it out.
Dwight
Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> wrote:
Dave Dameron <ddameron(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
See if you can find the book "PCC's
Reference book of Personal and Home
Computing". It has an article and the commented source of Palo Alto Tiny
Basic, for 8080 and Z-80 by Li-Chen Wang. It is version 3 and is later then
the one printed in an early Dr. Dobbs.
Is this what you've found?
-Dave
Hi Dave
This is the one I found. It seems quite similar to the 
16 Mar
16 Mar
8:43 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
I did a search of the net for Tiny Basic and only
found
references to the history of Tiny Basic and some site
that had something called Tiny Basic that was only 7K!
I guess they missed the point, it ain't tiny unless it
is smaller than 2K. Lets get real, 7K is only 1K smaller
than 8K which is a standard sized basic.
Heck, "standard sized BASIC" came in 4K, 8K, and 12K variants.
IIRC, those were the memory sizes needed to run them and still
have at least a small amount of memory left over for your
program.
But yes, if 7K is considered "Tiny BASIC", I should write a
6K "Miniscule BASIC"!
I guess it's just a symptom of the general software inflation that has
occurred. Everything has become bloated and inefficient.
That "Tiny BASIC" isn't written in C++, by any chance? :-)
8:50 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
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11:44 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
Anybody know how large the BASIC is on the Tandy
Pocket Computer series?
I heard 4K.
Well, no two of them are alike, so there's not a simple answer.
The PC1 through PC3 (and maybe some other models) were made by Sharp,
and are equivalent to the Sharp PC1211, PC1500, and PC1261, IIRC.
The PC1 used two four-bit single-chip micros, so there's no way to tell.
The PC2 used a Sharp LH5801 eight-bit micro, and definitely had more than
4K of ROM. I think it has 16K, but I'm not completely certain.
Many of the later ones were made by Casio.
Remember that by 1982 or so, masked ROM was fairly cheap, so there was little
reason for them to try to keep it under 4K or even 8K. Instead they were
competing on features.
9:50 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> wrote:
Heck, "standard sized BASIC" came in 4K, 8K, and 12K variants.
Hi Eric
A friend once had an old MDS800. He had no disk but
did have a paper tape reader. He actually loaded a 12K
Basic from paper tape. Ahaa, for the good old days.
Dwight
11:15 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
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12:58 p.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
>So? A decent paper tape reader will do 700 cps.
Hi
I don't recall the read speed but it was something
on the order of 15-20 mins to load. 700 cps sounds
a little high to me. As I recall, the holes are about
1/8th inch apart, making that ~7.3 feet per second,
I don't remember anything with paper tape going that
fast. Mylar tape maybe? Are you sure it wasn't 700 cpm?
Dwight
1:39 p.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
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10:29 a.m.
New subject: Tiny Basic again
On 16 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote:
Volume 2 of the CPMUG lists a Tinybasic at 3k. The docs run 12k.
- don
I did a
search of the net for Tiny Basic and only found
references to the history of Tiny Basic and some site
that had something called Tiny Basic that was only 7K!
I guess they missed the point, it ain't tiny unless it
is smaller than 2K. Lets get real, 7K is only 1K smaller
than 8K which is a standard sized basic.
Heck, "standard sized BASIC" came in 4K, 8K, and 12K variants.
IIRC, those were the memory sizes needed to run them and still
have at least a small amount of memory left over for your
program. But yes, if 7K is considered "Tiny BASIC", I
should write a
6K "Miniscule BASIC"!
I guess it's just a symptom of the general software inflation that has
occurred. Everything has become bloated and inefficient.
That "Tiny BASIC" isn't written in C++, by any chance? :-)
6:07 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
John Foust wrote:
At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time
:). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just
to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted
with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet
of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers
(late 40's, early 50's)?
Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far,
paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic]
Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) 
6:12 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
Marvin wrote:
John Foust wrote:
> Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on
eBay, current bid $17... :-)
I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now
... one at a time
:). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just
to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted
with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet
of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers
(late 40's, early 50's)?
You mean Lyons, the people who produced the LEO? I think it was the first
commercially sold computer; it was a cleaned-up version of one of the
British research machines (Manchester Mark I? EDSAC?).
-- Derek
2:40 p.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
Derek Peschel wrote:
Hmmm, now I am going to have to check it out. Both the punched cards and the
stationary say Leo Computers LTD. The address on the stationary is:
Leo Computers LTD
Hartree House
151A-159A Queensway
London W.2
It also lists the directors as A.H.L. Salmon, J.R.M. Simmons, T.R. Thompson,
A.B Barnes, D.T. Caminer, J.M.M. Pinkerton. I guess it is possible there was
another Leo Computers. Anyone know what the story is?
Marvin wrote:
of original
Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers
(late 40's, early 50's)?
You mean Lyons, the people who produced the LEO? I think it was the first
commercially sold computer; it was a cleaned-up version of one of the
British research machines (Manchester Mark I? EDSAC?).
7:04 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote:
I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now
... one at a time
:). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just
to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted
with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet
of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers
(late 40's, early 50's)?
Of course not :) But please explain. 40s and 50s??
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
2:50 p.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote:
I think Phil already did a good job of explaining. I thought I had read
somewhere that the Leo Computer was developed in the 40's, and I *thought*
it was also being sold by the end of the 40's. But I can't recall where I
read it. Oh well, I'll run across it again ... sometime :)!
I guess it is time to auction off some punch
cards now ... one at a time
:). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just
to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted
with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet
of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers
(late 40's, early 50's)?
Of course not :) But please explain. 40s and 50s??
7:23 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
John Foust wrote:
Don't forget to say its ** RARE **
At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time
:). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just
to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted
with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet
of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers
(late 40's, early 50's)?
Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far,
paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic]
Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-)
2:54 p.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
Mike Ford wrote:
Actually, I suspect it really is somewhat rare. Has anyone else heard of
more cards and stationary existing?
I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards
now ... one at a time
:). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just
to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted
with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet
of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers
(late 40's, early 50's)?
Don't forget to say its ** RARE ** 
1:09 p.m.
New subject: H-11 paper tapes was Re: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
At 09:07 AM 3/16/99 -0800, you wrote:
John Foust wrote:
>
> At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
> >
> >Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far,
> >paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic]
>
> Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-)
Hmmm, I just got an original HeathKit box with new and unused paper
tapes for the H 11. I wonder what they'd bring?
Joe
7:48 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
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4:14 p.m.
New subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?)
Upon the date 09:19 AM 3/16/99 -0600, John Foust said something like:
At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
Isn't that a hoot! Over on the Greenkeys (Teletype) reflector a few of us
got a chuckle out of it. The seller calls it "Ticker Tape" :) Looks quite
like 1" paper tape for an ASR33 or Friden Flexowriter. One comment was that
it looked dried out (ASR33 paper tape is lightly oiled to lube the punch.)
$17? Sheesh.
Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa
Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far,
paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic]
Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-)
14 Mar
14 Mar
8:05 a.m.
New subject: Medieval methods
Of course... After the next (in progress even now
perhaps) rennissance in
computing, I suspect people will be making similar comments about the
'bloat-ware' level of programming that is prevalent in the masses today,
which allows nearly anyone with minimal experience and training to write
mediocre code which is readily accepted by the mass audience (while at the
same time being held in great disdain by those occupying the higher levels
of the art).
<only somewhat tongue-in-cheek>
I'm not so sure. Rapid change defined the 80's and 90's, but a whole class
of basic applications are starting to stabilize, which permits a really
good version to rise to the top. Personally I kind of miss a word processor
that has instantanious response like PIE on my Apple II. Anybody else
remember PIE?
6:48 p.m.
New subject: Medieval methods
On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote:
I'm not so sure. Rapid change defined the 80's
and 90's, but a whole class
of basic applications are starting to stabilize, which permits a really
good version to rise to the top. Personally I kind of miss a word processor
that has instantanious response like PIE on my Apple II. Anybody else
remember PIE?
Well, I don't know if its the same as Pie Writer, but Pie Writer was a
great word processor, and I used to use it exclusively until I got an
Apple //e with 80-columns which could run AppleWorks.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
7:44 p.m.
New subject: Medieval methods
On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote:
That could be it, or a version of it. PIE stood for Programma International
Editor. One of the two guys that made up Programma "management" came from
RAND where a lot of the notions like insert, gobble, paste, etc were
thought up, and one of my friends translated those ideas into 6502 ASM. I
think I have versions that work on a 40 column Apple II, as well as special
versions for 80 and 132 column boards.
When I catalog my Apple II stuff its going to be interesting. No telling
what I have squirreled away.
I'm not so sure. Rapid change defined the
80's and 90's, but a whole class
of basic applications are starting to stabilize, which permits a really
good version to rise to the top. Personally I kind of miss a word processor
that has instantanious response like PIE on my Apple II. Anybody else
remember PIE?
Well, I don't know if its the same as Pie Writer, but Pie Writer was a
great word processor, and I used to use it exclusively until I got an
Apple //e with 80-columns which could run AppleWorks. 
15 Mar
15 Mar
7:10 a.m.
At 10:14 AM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote:
The reason some people like, and still use, VMS is because it is an
industrial strength operating system, just like big IBM mainframe operating
systems. It is extremely reliable, robust, predictable, well documented,
easy to use, dependable, stable and well supported. A VMS system will run
for many months, even years, without crashing and when it does, it is
usually a hardware problem. It has one other feature no operating system
has yet, true clustering. You can grow huge systems modularly and only
have to maintain one system disk.
What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP,
or a VAX, or an Altair, or any
...
The PDPs were DEC's series of processors. The PDP-8 and -11 were most
successful. The processors were used in a wide variety of machines. The
VAX is DEC's first 32-bit machine. It used an OS called VMS, which some
people like a lot for some reason, to the point of still using it. I heard that NT has a lot of VMS engineers behind it.
This statement might be somewhat true. After M-Squish designed NT, they
hired one of the VMS gurus from DEC and while there have been many
modifications to NT to add more VMS like features, it has one giant
drawback, the underlying operating system is UNIX based, the Mach kernel.
Therefore, they have not been able to implement a true clustering system
and IMHO because the DEC software engineers came late to the game, they
were unable to design the basic reliability into the operating system
software interfaces. NT servers usually crash regularly, i.e. in less than
a week, sometimes several times a day, especially if anyone is doing
development work on them. Another drawback to NT is that many software
upgrades and application installation/deinstallations require rebooting,
something unheard of with VMS.
-- Dean
9:21 a.m.
New subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof.
Dean Billing <drbilling(a)ucdavis.edu> wrote:
After M-Squish designed NT, they hired one of the VMS
gurus from DEC
No, they weren't *that* stupid. They hired him at let him design it.
The actual operating system deep in the bowels of Windows NT isn't so
bad. But they have lventy-seven layers of crap on top of it to keep
you from seing anything that might be simple and elegant.
and while there have been many
modifications to NT to add more VMS like features, it has one giant
drawback, the underlying operating system is UNIX based, the Mach kernel.
No, it isn't. The underlying operating system is nothing like Unix, and
only vaguely like Mach (which are themselves two entirely different things).
However, as a "normal" Windows programmer (for the Win32 subsystem), you
can't even get to the operating system. You can only call the Win32
layer.
Therefore, they have not been able to implement a true
clustering system
and IMHO because the DEC software engineers came late to the game, they
were unable to design the basic reliability into the operating system
software interfaces.
Again, that's not the fault of the kernel. The kernel is pretty good. The
problem is the leventy-seven layers of crap above it.
And the I/O architecture is even OK, but unfortunately you end up with
hundreds of device drivers written by bozos running at ring zero, so
naturally the system isn't as robust as it should be. DEC was in complete
control of the VAX, so most VMS sites didn't run any drivers that were
written by clueless morons.
But the worst problem with NT, and where the majority of the failures are
caused, is that for performance reasons starting with NT 3.5 (or was it 3.51?)
the moved the entire graphics subsystem (GDI) into kernel space. NT
immediately took a huge reliability hit.
NT servers usually crash regularly, i.e. in less than
a week, sometimes several times a day, especially if anyone is doing
development work on them.
Um, what do you mean by "doing development work on them"?
If you want a file server to be as robust as possible, it should be used for
nothing but serving files. That was true even in the old days.
Nowdays people load all kinds of crap on their NT file server. It's no
wonder the things fall over every few days.
Of course, if NT didn't have the problems discussed above, it should have
been able to go weeks or months without falling over.
Another drawback to NT is that many software
upgrades and application installation/deinstallations require rebooting,
something unheard of with VMS.
This problem is definitely a matter of poor design. I'm pretty sure this
one is also not the fault of the kernel, but of the leventy-seven layers
of crap above it. The programmers were too lazy and/or in too much of a
hurry to bother to figure out how to make changes without rebooting.
Note that all of my claims about NT architecture can be verified by
reading "Inside Windows NT". Except for moving GDI into the Kernel, which
happened later.
11:33 a.m.
New subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof.
On 15 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote:
The actual operating system deep in the bowels of
Windows NT isn't so
bad. But they have lventy-seven layers of crap on top of it to keep
you from seing anything that might be simple and elegant.
Of course, the kernel can't be blamed for much of anything. I'm sure that
if Microsoft got its hands on VMS source code, they would mess it up,
while if DEC got its hands on NT source code, they would make something
wonderful out of it...
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
12:10 p.m.
New subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof.
Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> wrote:
while if DEC got its hands on NT source code, they
would make something
wonderful out of it...
DEC did have their hands on NT source code; they worked jointly with
Microsoft on the port to the Alpha.
But you can't polish a turd.
12:31 p.m.
New subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof.
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
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ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu -
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jfoust＠threedee.com -
jimw＠agora.rdrop.com -
joe＠barrera.org -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
max82＠surfree.com -
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