23 Jan
2008
23 Jan
'08
11:07 a.m.
On Jan 22, 2008, at 11:52 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
The one I like is the stock
"this was changed in the XXXX model year"
Oh, very helpful. About as helpful as a MS-DOS 6 bundled "user's guide"
12) Bend over
the locking tap, refit the case.
It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and
"Refitting is
the reverse of removal" ;-) 
23 Jan
23 Jan
7:54 p.m.
On Jan 22, 2008, at 11:52 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
The one I like is the stock
"this was changed in the XXXX model year"
Oh, very helpful. About as helpful as a MS-DOS 6 bundled "user's guide"
The one that drives me mad (and it's in some classic computer manuals
too) is 'This operation eequires special tools and should be entrusted to
your dealer'. Darn it, I don;'t buy a service manaul to tell me to go to
a service engineer. I probably have the tools or could make them. I want
to be told how to do the job, _I'll_ decide whether or not I can actually
do it.
-tony
12) Bend
over the locking tap, refit the case.
It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and
"Refitting is
the reverse of removal" ;-) 
9:27 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
The one that drives me mad (and it's in some
classic computer manuals
too) is 'This operation eequires special tools and should be entrusted to
your dealer'. Darn it, I don;'t buy a service manaul to tell me to go to
a service engineer. I probably have the tools or could make them. I want
to be told how to do the job, _I'll_ decide whether or not I can actually
do it.
I agree.
But I have written some technical manuals for machines (not computers,
but machine tool) and used a similar phrase. The reason was because
there were several subtle options, and I *really* wanted to know what
was going on in the field. My assumption is that the customer is close
to our service department and so when he needs help, I will be there
too... The next revision of the manual might have more information. That
might be due to customer and field service feedback.
The problem is what happens in 30 years when I am long since retired.
Then Tony will curse me because his #7 MINSTER OBS doesn't stamp out the
next widget he needs.
-chuck
24 Jan
24 Jan
2:37 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
The problems come
a) Whnen the manufacture/service agent won't tell you how to do that job,
no matter how clueful you actually are (For example, changing SMD
components, at least the larger-pitch ones, hold no fears for me, it's
remarkable how many companies tell me I can't do it!)
b) 20 years on. The company is long-gone. Trying to track down a service
angineer from that company who remembers how to do the job is impossible.
All I have to go on is the manual. From many of the questions here, I
don't think that's a rare occurrance, alas.
FWIW, I have _never_ received useful information by e-mailing or phoning
a service department, technical support number, or anything like that. As
far as I'm concerned, if it's not in the manual, I have to work it out
for myself.
-tony
The one that drives me mad (and it's in some
classic computer manuals
too) is 'This operation eequires special tools and should be entrusted to
your dealer'. Darn it, I don;'t buy a service manaul to tell me to go to
a service engineer. I probably have the tools or could make them. I want
to be told how to do the job, _I'll_ decide whether or not I can actually
do it.
I agree.
But I have written some technical manuals for machines (not computers,
but machine tool) and used a similar phrase. The reason was because
there were several subtle options, and I *really* wanted to know what
was going on in the field. My assumption is that the customer is close
to our service department and so when he needs help, I will be there
too... The next revision of the manual might have more information. That
might be due to customer and field service feedback. 
8:29 p.m.
On 24/01/2008 19:37, Tony Duell wrote:
FWIW, I have _never_ received useful information by
e-mailing or phoning
a service department, technical support number, or anything like that. As
far as I'm concerned, if it's not in the manual, I have to work it out
for myself.
It is exasperating when "tech support" tell you you're incapable of
doing something when you know perfectly well that you could -- if only
they'd give you some piece of information. However, they're not all
like that, and I've had some exceptionally good experiences with a few.
For example, when I needed some technical details for a large Fujitsu
winchester, one of their staff said there was no-one left who'd know
much about the old drives, but thought there might be a manual
somewhere. To my surprise, he not only called me back but offered to
lend me the complete technical manual, which was in a large ring binder
-- providing I gave some assurances he'd get it back promptly, as it was
their only remaining copy!
When I needed some information about bootstrap versions on a disk
controller for a QBus machine, an engineer (and I use that term
advisedly) at Baydel not only spent a while on the phone with me and
sent me the information, but sent half a dozen different PROMs and a few
other parts to help out.
Even DEC let me pay a visit to their labs at Winersh, once, because I
had an obscure problem with certain permutations of firmware and
hardware on an 11/23 with RQDX1/2 controllers. I actually spent most of
the day in their maintenance lab, with access to their documentation,
equipment, and staff. And that was the result of a phone call to a
technical contact, who passed me on to management, who arranged my visit
knowing I was just an enthusiast.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
23 Jan
23 Jan
11:53 p.m.
On Wednesday 23 January 2008 19:54, Tony Duell wrote:
Oh yeah!
The worst one for that was one time I tried to get a manual for something (I
can't remember now just what it was) that H-P was selling. I ordered _a
service manual_, and what I got was some very thin stack of papers, o f the
sourt you'd put into one of those half-size binders that got popular when the
peecee came out, which included such useful information as "xxxx is not
considered a repairable item, but is swapped out as a unit". Really?
They'll do that even when it's out of warranty? And in such a way as I can
still make a buck on it? (I was trying to run a hardware-repair business at
the time...)
I also got "invoiced" for this thing for something absurd, like $50, and
sent it back, along with the invoice, basically telling them where they
could stick it.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
On Jan 22,
2008, at 11:52 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
The one I like is the stock
"this was changed in the XXXX model year"
Oh, very helpful. About as helpful as a MS-DOS 6 bundled "user's guide"
The one that drives me mad (and it's in some classic computer manuals
too) is 'This operation eequires special tools and should be entrusted to
your dealer'. Darn it, I don;'t buy a service manaul to tell me to go to
a service engineer. I probably have the tools or could make them. I want
to be told how to do the job, _I'll_ decide whether or not I can actually
do it. 12) Bend
over the locking tap, refit the case.
It's not the same without the Terry Davey cutaway drawings and
"Refitting is
the reverse of removal" ;-)
24 Jan
24 Jan
2:42 p.m.
The worst one for that was one time I tried to get a
manual for something=
(I=20
can't remember now just what it was) that H-P was selling. I ordered _a=20
service manual_, and what I got was some very thin stack of papers, o f =
the=20
sourt you'd put into one of those half-size binders that got popular when=
the=20
peecee came out, which included such useful information as "xxxx is not=20
considered a repairable item, but is swapped out as a unit". Really? =20
They'll do that even when it's out of warranty? And in such a way as I c=
an=20
still make a buck on it? (I was trying to run a hardware-repair business=
at=20
the time...)
The HP desktop calculator manuals are like that. I don't know of _one_
that cotnains any schematics of the logic sections. If you're lucky
there'll be scheamtics for the power supply, but that's it. Sometimes all
you get is the mains transformer wiring or something else like that which
I could figure out in 10 seconds.
These are the manuals that I normally call 'boardswapper guides' I read
them if they're avaialble free (and many are on the web now), but I
certainly wouldn't p[ay for them. INHO a service manual (for an
electronic device) should _at least_ contain a complete scheamtic
diagram.
Of course for many of the HP desktops. I've produced my own repair
manuals now...
-tony
6000
days inactive
6002
days old
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