17 Apr
2007
17 Apr
'07
12:44 a.m.
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:43:58 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Linux question
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <m1HdZvW-000J1GC at p850ug1>
Content-Type: text/plain
And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer list, yet no one on the
list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the
question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I
would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least
a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They
seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has
changed. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing - but it is change.
At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90% of the list had
some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of
50%.
"Disinterested" probably comes off as a bit too negative. People aren't
really distinterested per se, the current composition of the list just
isn't focused on these types of machines. Perhaps it would have been
better to say "bewildered silence".
-W
Ask a question about Linux, everyone falls over
themselves
to help -
and that's certainly nice.
But ask a question about a classic system like the Kaypro 10 - like
poor Ralph Dodd did on April 12th - and the response is
disinterested
silence.
I disagree with the last comment. I am not 'disinterested'.
I didn't actualy provide the answer to the linux question
because others
had got there before me and I had nothing to add. But I
easily could have
given the answere. Darn it, I've got cat running on this machine
(obviosuly), I can do a 'man cat' to see if there's anything
useful, and
so on.
No, going back to that Keypro 10. I don't have one. I don't
have a technical or service manual (or a schemaitc) for it.
Coming from a TRS-80 background I have little experience of
CP/M machines (I always felt LDOS was a superior OS), I don't
have a single CP/M luggable. I have no experience at all of
the 3rd party ROMs that I believe were mentioned in the
original question. I can't help the OP. It doesn't mean I'm
not interested -- I am. But the only contribution I could
make would be
'Sorry, I don't know' and that would be a total waste of bandwidth.
17 Apr
17 Apr
1:27 a.m.
On 16 Apr 2007 at 21:44, Wayne Smith wrote:
And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer
list, yet no one on the
list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the
question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I
would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least
a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They
seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has
changed.
Except, to my way of thinking, his question had nothing to do with
CP/M (I've got a pretty good grasp on that). His concern was with a
rather specific third-party ROM for the Kaypro.
Cheers,
Chuck
1:41 a.m.
The only time I had ANY troubles with kaypros and 3rd party roms boiled down
to a few errors.
1: Mismatched ROM and OS disk
2: Using an eprom that was rated too fast. When I burned out the same rom
image to a slower part it worked. Even after erasing and reprogramming the
faster part, and validating that it was electronically (data wise) identical
to the older, slower part it would hang on boot with the faster Eprom
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:28 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Linux question
On 16 Apr 2007 at 21:44, Wayne Smith wrote:
And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer
list, yet no one on the
list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the
question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I
would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least
a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They
seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has
changed.
Except, to my way of thinking, his question had nothing to do with
CP/M (I've got a pretty good grasp on that). His concern was with a
rather specific third-party ROM for the Kaypro.
Cheers,
Chuck
7:32 a.m.
On Mon, 2007-04-16 at 22:27 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 16 Apr 2007 at 21:44, Wayne Smith wrote:
I never got a lot of response the couple of times I asked about Baydel
multi-function card boot ROMs. I put it down to having obscure
hardware. I'm annoyed that one of the ROMs is shot, because I'm
beginning to suspect I have the last working card...
I certainly didn't put it down to disinterest or ignorance or anything
like that. I just assumed that no-one answered because no-one knew.
Gordon
And that's my point. This is a Classic
Computer list, yet no one on the
list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10 question. Perhaps the
question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I
would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would have received at least
a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They
seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has
changed.
Except, to my way of thinking, his question had nothing to do with
CP/M (I've got a pretty good grasp on that). His concern was with a
rather specific third-party ROM for the Kaypro. 
10:47 a.m.
Wayne Smith wrote:
At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90%
of the list had
some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of
50%.
You're taking your generalization right out of the ball-park.
"Disinterested" probably comes off as a bit
too negative. People aren't
really distinterested per se, the current composition of the list just
isn't focused on these types of machines. Perhaps it would have been
better to say "bewildered silence".
The response to any query on this list depends on the rarity of the
hardware, the level of past experience with that hardware (a lot of
listers have worked with systems they don't currently own), the clarity
and amount of detail in the question, whether there's a tasty flame war
ongoing, and the positions of the moon, Mars, and Uranus.
I've asked questions here and gotten dead silence; asked the same
question again in a few weeks and gotten lots of response and several
solutions. Trying to make something of that or draw some conclusion
from it is Not Right.
Doc
11:09 a.m.
Someone wrote...
> At one point in time I would have ventured that
70-90% of the list had
> some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of
> 50%.
I will make my own generalization - that the above is probably not correct
;)
Doc wrote...
The response to any query on this list depends on
the rarity of the
hardware, the level of past experience with that hardware (a lot of
listers have worked with systems they don't currently own), the clarity
and amount of detail in the question, whether there's a tasty flame war
ongoing, and the positions of the moon, Mars, and Uranus.
Actually, that's a
very good synopsis.
I've asked questions here and gotten dead
silence; asked the same
question again in a few weeks and gotten lots of response and several
solutions.
And completely correct here too - I have had the exact same thing occur
on
quite a few occasions. Sometime peoples minds are just elsewhere, and that's
ok.
Trying to make something of that or draw some
conclusion from it is Not
Right.
Well, I'll go as far as "incorrect" :D
Jay
18 Apr
18 Apr
12:41 a.m.
Jay West wrote:
Someone wrote...
Oh, I forgot - I have an Altos 580-15 and a Kaypro II, so I'm on the
"owns one" side.
Doc
> At one point in time I would have ventured
that 70-90% of the list had
> some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of
> 50%.
I will make my own generalization - that the above is probably not
correct ;) 
1:02 p.m.
New subject: CP/M stuff
I have a small collection of CP/M stuff, books, software, and dos cards
for Apple systems, maybe other stuff I don't know I have. Once my
sorting and anti squirreling away gets going I plan to list some of the
books I have extra copies etc. of.
3:52 p.m.
New subject: Kaypro 10 format.com
With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if someone could send me
a copy of the format.com. I have a k10 without the kayplus bios and a
new hard drive that needs formatting. I have download the kaypro disks
from dave's site and the system disk 2 is really
multiplan. I have a
program called hdskfmt.com which I was told would work but it
is just a
disk certify program. Thanks
7:24 p.m.
New subject: Kaypro 10 format.com
On 18/04/07, info <info at harrells.net> wrote:
With all the Kaypro 10 in the group I wondered if
someone could send me
a copy of the format.com. I have a k10 without the kayplus bios and a
new hard drive that needs formatting. I have download the kaypro disks
from dave's site and the system disk 2 is really multiplan. I have a
program called hdskfmt.com which I was told would work but it is just a
disk certify program. Thanks
I don't know if this is anything relevant, but I've got a kaypro disc
imaged at http://www.irrelevant.com/cc/ (the speedstor disc) that has
a "hardprep.exe" program on it .. These were just a batch of
diskettes I found and posted some time back, after rescuing them from
a place I used to work.. I don't know what particular model of
machine this one was for...
17 Apr
17 Apr
11:40 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
Wayne Smith wrote:
> "Disinterested" probably comes off as a bit too negative. People
aren't
> really distinterested per se, the current composition of the list just
> isn't focused on these types of machines. Perhaps it would have been
> better to say "bewildered silence".
(I hope that was Wayne :) )
"Disinterested" actually means detached. If you sign a contract, often we
get a disinterested person to witness your signature. This is someone who
has nothing to do with the contract. The person might be very interested :)
but they are not a party to it and don't stand to gain, hence they are
disinterested.
If they don't care about the contract, then they'll be uninterested.
Ain't English fun?
Incidentally, I'll put my hand up as being a CP/M machine owner, if you
count a Commodore 128. I have CP/M floppies for it and even have a set of
formal DRI manuals for CP/M Plus. Can't say I've ever done anything
productive with CP/M, but I certainly intend to play with it sometime.
Jim
4:14 p.m.
And that's my point. This is a Classic Computer list, yet no one on the
There is a _very_ big difference between being unable to answer a
question and not being bothered to answer a question.
list is able to respond to this guy's Kaypro 10
question. Perhaps the
question was obscure, but this is truly the playground of obscurity. I
I think you're being unreasonable here. I don't know how many different
models of computer have been made in the 'classic period', but it must be
10's of thousands at least. Do you seriosuly think that given a machine,
at least one person here must have experience of it?
would venture that 10 years ago Dodd's post would
have received at least
a few responses, as there were a lot of CP/Mers then on the list. They
seem to have mostly moved on, and the composition of the list has
changed. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing - but it is change.
I am not sure anything can, or should, be done about this.
At one point in time I would have ventured that 70-90%
of the list had
some sort of CP/M machine, but I bet that number is now well south of
50%.
Actually, I suspect many people here have a CP/M machine. For all I don't
much care for CP/M, I have many machines that can run it (including Epson
laptops, an Epson QX10, DEC Rainbow, TRS-80 M4, and so on).
However, that deosn't mean anyone has experience with a probably quite
uncommon 3rd party ROM in one particular machine.
TO go back to that 'linux question', it's a question that is not really
linux speciific. The same question -- and answer -- applies to any unix
system. Suppose, the CP/M question had been 'how to I convert an Intel
HEX file to a CP/M binary'. I'll bet a dozen people would give the
answer.
Conversely, if you anked something less generic about a linux system
(like : how do I modify the kernel to use a Catweasel card as its only
floppy controller), you'd probably not get an answer.
-tony
6286
days inactive
6287
days old
11 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
gordon＠gjcp.net -
info＠harrells.net -
jim＠photojim.ca -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
robert＠irrelevant.com -
wayne.smith＠charter.net