18 Jan
2003
18 Jan
'03
10:20 a.m.
In reading my copy of Collectible Microcomputers (yes yes, you all get it
by now, I like the book... ok, I'll stop refering to it after this)... I
noticed in the Apple Computer section a mention of how Apple's first
customers were the folks that got schematics for the Apple 1 when it was
first shown at Home Brew.
Although I already knew that they alledgedly gave out schematics... I
began to wonder A: did they really (probably) and B: do any copies exist
anywhere?
I thought it might be a fun project to try an build an Apple 1 from the
schematics... just as the first users probably did. So, does anyone know
if they are available, or does anyone have a copy and might want to send
me a set? Or are copies just as elusive as the Apple 1 itself and there
is no shot in ever getting them.
-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>
18 Jan
18 Jan
11:11 a.m.
chris asks about Apple I schematics.
Although I already knew that they alledgedly gave out
schematics... I
began to wonder A: did they really (probably) and B: do any copies exist
anywhere?
A: Yes.
B: Google is your friend.
I thought it might be a fun project to try an build an
Apple 1 from the
schematics...
It's *extremely* difficult to find some of the Apple I parts, which have
been out of production for over years. Particularly the seven 1024-bit
MOS shift registers, and one hex-40-bit MOS shift register.
just as the first users probably did.
Not quite, since they had a PCB. (Unless you plan to lay out a PCB
yourself.)
11:17 a.m.
chris wrote:
Although I already knew that they alledgedly gave out
schematics... I
began to wonder A: did they really (probably) and B: do any copies exist
anywhere?
Parts of the Apple I schematics are shown in the second edition of
"Fire In The Valley". Not enought to build a complete replica,
though. You can see, however, that there's an option for installing
either a 6502 CPU or a 6800.
--
John Honniball
coredump(a)gifford.co.uk
4:27 p.m.
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, chris wrote:
In reading my copy of Collectible Microcomputers (yes
yes, you all get
it by now, I like the book... ok, I'll stop refering to it after
this)... I noticed in the Apple Computer section a mention of how
Apple's first customers were the folks that got schematics for the Apple
1 when it was first shown at Home Brew.
Although I already knew that they alledgedly gave out schematics... I
began to wonder A: did they really (probably) and B: do any copies exist
anywhere?
I thought it might be a fun project to try an build an Apple 1 from the
schematics... just as the first users probably did. So, does anyone know
if they are available, or does anyone have a copy and might want to send
me a set? Or are copies just as elusive as the Apple 1 itself and there
is no shot in ever getting them.
Ok, I guess its time I post on the list about this...
I've been thinking about this very project for sometime. The main problems
that I came up with are:
1. certain parts are difficult to find
2. ROM source and/or binary image availability
3. re-creating the pc boards
The first problem should be possible to overcome either by finding a stock
of surplus parts, or should significant demand exist, having the parts
made by a company that specializes in fabricating out of production parts.
I've actually looked into the later a couple times in the past, and the
prices didn't seem to be out of line. I've even wondered if it would be
possible to get a copy of the mask from Intel for say the i8008 or i4004
and have reproductions made.
The second and third problems may be slightly more difficult to overcome.
One option would be to find an Apple 1, dump the ROMs, carefully unsolder
all the parts and scan each side of the cleaned pc boards. The scanned
images can then be used to create gerber files. I personally don't have
the funds to go out and buy an Apple 1, and I don't know of anyone who
would give up one just for it to be taken to bits.
Another option for the second and third problems is to contact Woz and see
if he would be willing to help. I have so far restrained myself from
emailing him, since I know he gets tons and tons of emails, including
people asking him if he has an Apple 1 he could give them, etc. I'd
imagine Woz would very much like to see the Apple 1 preserved, but it
would probably take him quite a bit of time to find all the docs and info
that we'd need.
-Toth
5:51 p.m.
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Tothwolf wrote:
The second and third problems may be slightly more
difficult to overcome.
One option would be to find an Apple 1, dump the ROMs, carefully unsolder
all the parts and scan each side of the cleaned pc boards. The scanned
images can then be used to create gerber files. I personally don't have
the funds to go out and buy an Apple 1, and I don't know of anyone who
would give up one just for it to be taken to bits.
I have dumps of the ROM, as do a bunch of other people. They were
published in the manual, and the manual has been published to the web, so
I'm certain other people have typed them in, and I've handed out copies of
the ROM to a few people.
Another option for the second and third problems is to
contact Woz and see
if he would be willing to help. I have so far restrained myself from
emailing him, since I know he gets tons and tons of emails, including
people asking him if he has an Apple 1 he could give them, etc. I'd
imagine Woz would very much like to see the Apple 1 preserved, but it
would probably take him quite a bit of time to find all the docs and info
that we'd need.
I asked Woz, and he said as far as he knows, the original masks for the
Apple-1 PC board no longer exist.
A schematic would have to be made from an original board. Unsoldering the
chips and sockets would be very intrusive and I doubt you'll find anyone
willing to do that. Ideally there would be some other non-intrusive
method. X-ray perhaps?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
6:03 p.m.
Since this is a single sided board, as far as components go, the bottom
side would be easy. Scan it. The top side would be harder, but given that
the majority of the parts are .3" wide, with the schematic, a lot of the
routing can be inferred. And while I haven't looked closely at an Apple I
board, the trace widths should be pretty wide, by todays standards. So by
doing an overlay, and perhaps using some bright lights for manual
verification, it seems that very near replica could be made.
Yes, it would be nice to have some bare cards, and dup them. But was
everyone says, I doubt that anyone will sacrifce an Apple I to the cause,
and I'm almost of the opinion that if they were willing, they should be
greviously injured.
So is a near replica good enough?
--John
19 Jan
19 Jan
12:46 a.m.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
Since this is a single sided board, as far as
components go, the bottom
side would be easy. Scan it. The top side would be harder, but given
that the majority of the parts are .3" wide, with the schematic, a lot
of the routing can be inferred. And while I haven't looked closely at
an Apple I board, the trace widths should be pretty wide, by todays
standards. So by doing an overlay, and perhaps using some bright lights
for manual verification, it seems that very near replica could be made.
I thought the PC board was double sided?
Yes, it would be nice to have some bare cards, and dup
them. But was
everyone says, I doubt that anyone will sacrifce an Apple I to the
cause, and I'm almost of the opinion that if they were willing, they
should be greviously injured.
Well, I'd take one to bits, but of course, I'd eventually end up
reassembling it. Such a shame that the current market value of an Apple I
puts it out of reach though...
-Toth
3:07 a.m.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
Since this is a single sided board, as far as
components go, the
I assume you mean single layer?
bottom side would be easy. Scan it. The top side would
be harder, but
given that the majority of the parts are .3" wide, with the schematic, a
lot of the routing can be inferred. And while I haven't looked closely
at an Apple I board, the trace widths should be pretty wide, by todays
standards. So by doing an overlay, and perhaps using some bright lights
for manual verification, it seems that very near replica could be made.
Check out these photos:
http://vintage.org/special/apple-1/apple-1-front.jpg
http://vintage.org/special/apple-1/apple-1-rear.jpg
4:39 a.m.
No, I meant that the board only has components on one side, unlike a few
custom through-hole boards I've seen, and more and more surface mount type
boards.
I wonder what CAD system they used to lay it out with.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Sellam Ismail
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 09:07
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Apple 1 schematics
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com
*
Since this is a single sided board, as far as
components go, the
I assume you mean single layer?
bottom side would be easy. Scan it. The top side
would be
harder, but
given that the majority of the parts are .3"
wide, with the
schematic, a
lot of the routing can be inferred. And while I
haven't
looked closely
at an Apple I board, the trace widths should be
pretty
wide, by todays
standards. So by doing an overlay, and perhaps
using some
bright lights
for manual verification, it seems that very near
replica
could be made.
Check out these photos:
http://vintage.org/special/apple-1/apple-1-front.jpg
http://vintage.org/special/apple-1/apple-1-rear.jpg
From the front photo you can see that the
connecting traces are very
tight. However, within proximity of the ICs, they are
inferable, but it's
not always obvious. I know this because I've looked at an
Apple-1 a few
times and pondered how challenging it would be to discern the traces
undeather sockets. If you look at the socket on the far left of the
board, right above the Apple Computer 1 wording, you'll see
what most (if
not all) of the sockets on the board look like. There's no way to see
underneath without removing the socket.
All that being said, I imagine with a close scrutiny of the board and
cross-referencing it with the schematics, one can acrruately make the
necessary inferences.
Sellam Ismail Vintage
Computer Festival
--------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger 
5:10 a.m.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
No, I meant that the board only has components on one
side, unlike a few
custom through-hole boards I've seen, and more and more surface mount type
boards.
I wonder what CAD system they used to lay it out with.
--John
CAD system? Most likely hand taped at that time...
Ah yes, Bishop Graphics decals and puppets, black .032" tape, Exacto knives,
Mylar overlays... Brings back memories (and nightmares)
PCW
5:50 a.m.
You think? I've not held an Apple I board in my hands, but looking at the
routing, I don't see any of the characteristics marks of a hand layout. The
tracks are too even, and way they're run horizontally is a hallmark of early
routing assistance algorithms.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Peter C. Wallace
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:13
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Apple 1 schematics
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
No, I meant that the board only has components
on one
side, unlike a few
custom through-hole boards I've seen, and
more and more
surface mount type
boards.
I wonder what CAD system they used to lay it out with.
--John
CAD system? Most likely hand taped at that time...
Ah yes, Bishop Graphics decals and puppets, black .032" tape,
Exacto knives,
Mylar overlays... Brings back memories (and nightmares)
PCW
7:32 a.m.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
You think? I've not held an Apple I board in my
hands, but looking at the
routing, I don't see any of the characteristics marks of a hand layout. The
tracks are too even, and way they're run horizontally is a hallmark of early
routing assistance algorithms.
--John
I have held one in my hands (when they were selling kits at the entance to the
Homebrew computer club - thats been a while)
The time frame alone pretty much suggests a hand layout... I would have
guessed that Wozniac taped it up himself.
Also hand layouts can be very even because they were typically reduced 2X or
even 4X and were layed out on a light table over an alignment grid.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Peter C. Wallace
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:13
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Apple 1 schematics
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
No, I meant that the board only has components
on one
side, unlike a few
custom through-hole boards I've seen, and
more and more
surface mount type
boards.
I wonder what CAD system they used to lay it out with.
--John
CAD system? Most likely hand taped at that time...
Ah yes, Bishop Graphics decals and puppets, black .032" tape,
Exacto knives,
Mylar overlays... Brings back memories (and nightmares)
PCW
11:36 a.m.
J.C. Wren wrote:
You think? I've not held an Apple I board in my
hands, but looking at
the routing, I don't see any of the characteristics marks of a hand
layout. The tracks are too even,
It was done by hand by someone really good, not a neophyte.
and way they're run horizontally is a hallmark
of early routing assistance algorithms.
Running traces horizontally on one side and vertically on the other is
the way it's generally done by hand or machine. Actually, some autorouters
are *more* willing to deviate from this than hand layout typically would.
8:40 a.m.
I wonder what
CAD system they used to lay it out with.
CAD system? Most likely hand taped at that
time...
Ah yes, Bishop Graphics decals and puppets, black .032" tape, Exacto knives,
Mylar overlays... Brings back memories (and nightmares)
9:25 a.m.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
D'ya mean that the Apple 1 was NOT designed with a Windows NT version of
AutoCad?
If CAD, More likely Racal Redac on a PDP11 or CALMA :-)
Peter Wallace
I wonder what CAD system they used to lay it out
with.
CAD system? Most likely hand taped at that time...
Ah yes, Bishop Graphics decals and puppets, black .032" tape, Exacto knives,
Mylar overlays... Brings back memories (and nightmares)
11:33 a.m.
J.C. Wren wrote:
No, I meant that the board only has components on one
side, unlike a
few
custom through-hole boards I've seen, and more and more surface mount
type boards.
I wonder what CAD system they used to lay it out with.
CAD system? ROTFL! That was done entirely by hand. Apple didn't have
any money for CAD systems, or to contract out the work to people who did.
Woz didn't even have an assembler to use when he was developing the monitor
and BASIC interpreter; he had to hand-assemble it.
I'd heard that Ron Wayne (the lesser-known of the three Apple founders)
designed the board, which would have made sense because he designed boards
for Atari, and the layout style of the Apple I board was very similar to
those of Atari boards of that era. However, recently I asked Woz about it,
and he said that it was NOT designed by Ron.
Ron *did* write the Apple I manual, and he designed the original Apple
logo (Newton under the Apple tree).
3:34 p.m.
On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, Eric Smith wrote:
I'd heard that Ron Wayne (the lesser-known of the
three Apple founders)
designed the board, which would have made sense because he designed boards
for Atari, and the layout style of the Apple I board was very similar to
those of Atari boards of that era. However, recently I asked Woz about it,
and he said that it was NOT designed by Ron.
So then who did design it? I thought I may have read somewhere that they
did the board layout at HP using a CAD system there. That may be totally
incorrect though (my recollection and/or the anecdote).
Ron *did* write the Apple I manual, and he designed
the original Apple
logo (Newton under the Apple tree).
His role in the development of the Apple-1 is pretty well covered in the
book _Apple Confidential_.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
7:51 a.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
A bright light on the component side of the board shining at the IC in
question will sometimes allow the component side traces to be seen. I
really can't imagine the Apple I board being hard to reverse engineer
althought it would take some time to do it.
From the front photo you can see that the
connecting traces are very
tight. However, within proximity of the ICs, they are
inferable, but it's
not always obvious. I know this because I've looked at an Apple-1 a few
times and pondered how challenging it would be to discern the traces
undeather sockets. If you look at the socket on the far left of the
board, right above the Apple Computer 1 wording, you'll see what most (if
not all) of the sockets on the board look like. There's no way to see
underneath without removing the socket. 
18 Jan
18 Jan
8:47 p.m.
At 08:51 PM 1/18/03 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Tothwolf wrote:
... (re: Apple 1 schematics)
I asked Woz, and he said as far as he knows, the original masks for the
Apple-1 PC board no longer exist.
A schematic would have to be made from an original board. Unsoldering the
chips and sockets would be very intrusive and I doubt you'll find anyone
willing to do that. Ideally there would be some other non-intrusive
method. X-ray perhaps?
All you need are your eyes, an ohmmeter, and a lot of patience. I have
reverse engineered some double sided PC boards from my Wang 2200. I have a
lot more to go before I recreate all the schematics. This is the procedure
I have used so far.
I create a drawing of the board and all the chips, including pin
numbers. Then I pick up the board and start with a pin or connector. I
ferret out all the devices/pins on that net by just looking at it (on the
back). Any time you get to a via or other through hole, you must check the
top to see if it goes anywhere on top. Even though the chip obscures part
of the tracework on top, you can still make out some of it from the back
(especially with the right lighting), and if that fails, just buzz out all
pins of the chip and any traces that pop out from under the chip (this is
pretty easy on the Wang since there is no soldermask -- you can buzz out a
trace anywhere).
Once you know everything on a net, double check it by buzzing it out again,
then check off all of those pins/connectors/devices on the diagram. Then
pick another pin and see what it is connected to.
Then the next bit of fun is taking your netlist and turning it into a
coherent schematic.
Here is a pretty regular board -- it is the microcode store for a Wang
2200-T CPU. It took about ten hours to buzz everything out and build a
schematic.
The board diagram (a copy of which I used to make sure I hit all the pins):
http://www.thebattles.net/wang/2200tech/7025-outline.pdf
The recreated schematic:
http://www.thebattles.net/wang/2200tech/7025-sch-p1.pdf
I have the printer interface card & schematic online too, and I have the
netlist for one of the three cards that implement the CPU. I haven't had
any time in the past few months to push this project along, but I hope to
get all of the CPU done some day.
If there had been any buried layers, it would have been much harder -- hard
enough that I wouldn't consider investing the time trying to figure it out.
-----
Jim Battle == frustum(a)pacbell.net
19 Jan
19 Jan
12:33 p.m.
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20 Jan
20 Jan
12:33 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I've never found a CAD program that's at all
useful for this -- I use
pen and paper always...
Ah, a man after my own heart :-)
I always use pen and paper for the initial schematics for anything I design.
Then I bring the schematic into either EAGLE or Protel Autotrax and then
start routing the board. Or I just bodge the thing on stripboard, depends
how tired/lazy (delete where appropriate) I am on that particular day <g>.
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
19 Jan
19 Jan
12:42 a.m.
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Tothwolf wrote:
Sad. Maybe one day some will turn up. Of course, that will be the day
after reproduction boards come back from the fab shop...
Another option for the second and third problems
is to contact Woz and
see if he would be willing to help. I have so far restrained myself
from emailing him, since I know he gets tons and tons of emails,
including people asking him if he has an Apple 1 he could give them,
etc. I'd imagine Woz would very much like to see the Apple 1
preserved, but it would probably take him quite a bit of time to find
all the docs and info that we'd need.
I asked Woz, and he said as far as he knows, the original masks for the
Apple-1 PC board no longer exist. A schematic would have to be made from an original
board. Unsoldering
the chips and sockets would be very intrusive and I doubt you'll find
anyone willing to do that. Ideally there would be some other
non-intrusive method. X-ray perhaps?
Any traces that go underneath components won't show up well on an X-ray
(well, from what I've seen anyway). DIP component leads don't end at the
edges of the package, so it tends block the image. There are X-ray viewing
systems intended for SMT and BGA work that might work for some things, but
they cost a small fortune.
I'm probably one of the few that would be willing to take such a board to
bits (but I also mentioned that before). Of course, that would be *after*
I get myself a Metcal MX500 and DS1 ;)
-Toth
7855
days inactive
7857
days old
21 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cb＠mythtech.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
coredump＠gifford.co.uk -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
frustum＠pacbell.net -
jcwren＠jcwren.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
pcw＠mesanet.com -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
tothwolf＠concentric.net