19 Mar
2004
19 Mar
'04
12:28 p.m.
der Mouse <mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote:
Possibly - or perhaps a KA620 is one example of an
rtVAX, much as a
KA630 is an example of a VAX.
You are right of course conceptually. But I'm pretty sure now that KA620 was
the only implementation of the rtVAX architecture.
My VARM is "Revision 6.1" and is not
obviously marked with an edition
number.
1982-05-20, right? I have that one too, it's my first VARM, one of Tim Shoppa's
early gifts to Quasijarus Project. The early VARMs, the EK-VAXAR-RM ones, are
lovely: 100% pure ASCII, except for boldface section headers the book is line
printer output. From the appearance seems to be very close to the DEC internal
VAX spec, DEC STD 032 (though not having a copy of the latter it's an educated
guess). But then they stopped issuing VARMs in that format, and published it as
a book (with ISBN and all, rather than an EK part #). The book version of VARM
had two editions: 1st ed. in 1987 by Tim Leonard (listed as the keeper of the
DEC internal VAX spec in an appendix to another highly secretive DEC internal
spec I have) and 2nd ed. in 1991 by Richard Brunner (wonder what happened to
Tim...). I have acquired both of these books recently. Not having a copy of
the genuine article (the DEC internal STD 032 spec) I have to live with the
published versions instead, so I was trying to acquire as many of them as
possible to complete my mental picture of the complete architecture spec and its
variations. (I'm designing a new VAX CPU chip, so I have to have a very solid
picture of the spec requirements and options and their evolution.)
Would anyone perchance have a copy of the real VAX spec, DEC STD 032 aka
EL-00032-00 aka A-DS-EL00032-00-0?
I don't recall seeing an rtVAX mentioned in it,
and the index
does not list anything beginning with rt-.
Yeah, of course the 1982-05-20 VARM predates it by a few years.
Brian Chase <vaxzilla(a)jarai.org> wrote:
The 2nd Ed VARM has a section on rtVAX memory
management, 11.2.3 on pgs
422-424. I don't yet see any other mentions of it the book to indicate
whether it actually is designated as the KA620.
Table 8-2 on pp. 331-332 lists the SID code assignments, and 16 decimal is
listed as "rt/uVAX (chip 78R32)". Knowing that 78032 is the MicroVAX II chip,
used in KA630, KA410 (MV/VS2000), and a bunch of other less-known systems (see
the SYS_TYPE codes the same table lists for SID 08), it's pretty obvious that
the rtVAX 1000 listed by the table as being based on this 78R32 is the KA620.
Since the MMU is internal to the CPU chip, the difference between KA630 and
KA620 is in the silicon (78032 vs. 78R32) rather than board-level.
MS
19 Mar
19 Mar
12:38 p.m.
>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov
<msokolov(a)ivan.harhan.org> writes:
Michael> Would anyone perchance have a copy of the real VAX spec, DEC
Michael> STD 032 aka EL-00032-00 aka A-DS-EL00032-00-0?
I believe that's a DEC "internal use only" document, so in theory you
shouldn't be able to get that...
Best bet might be to get permission from HP/Compaq/DEC for a copy. A
possible place to start looking for information would be Bob Supnik.
paul
2:27 p.m.
You are right of course conceptually. But I'm
pretty sure
now that KA620 was the only implementation of the rtVAX architecture.
I *think* that the KA620 was the only VAX chip that was
deliberately hobbled. There were, however, other machines
called rtVAX <some-number>. I forget the exact details
but at least one of them was based on the CVAX chip. I
expect that there was something at the board-level that
would have prevented them running OpenVMS but the chip
was (I'm pretty sure) a standard CVAX.
early VARMs, the EK-VAXAR-RM ones, are
lovely: 100% pure ASCII, except for boldface section headers
the book is line printer output.
One of the standard questions I recall within DEC was
"can I have an electronic copy of STD 032" to which the
standard answer was "No, there's no such thing". Obviously
there *was* such a thing, it just never got released that
way. It only came out (AFAIK) in hardcopy. Same with the
Alpha SRM.
From the appearance
seems
to be very close to the DEC internal VAX spec, DEC STD 032
(though not having a copy of the latter it's an educated
guess). But then they stopped issuing VARMs in that format,
and published it as a book (with ISBN and all, rather than an
EK part #).
The books were slightly sanitised copies of DEC STD 032 but
professionally printed. If that V6.1 EK-VAXAR-RM is the
one I'm thinking of (but just cannot lay my hands on right
now) then it too is a sanitised DEC STD 032 that eventually
turned into the first edition of the book.
There's not a huge difference between STD 032 and the books.
There are a few paragraphs missing here and there but I don't
remember anything hugely significant (and I'm no longer
in a position to check). The sanitised bits are quite obvious -
I recall some kind of markup (either "/" or "\" at the start
of the not-for-publication lines). Lists of DEC contacts with
phone numbers and the revision history probably got dropped too.
The only major omission is the Virtual VAX stuff (which was
done for some three letter agency but never became a product
- I heard that it just ran way too slowly to be useful).
It has its own SID (09 IIRC, I guess(0)07 was already taken :-)).
Much more interesting was the list of VAX bugs (i.e. the list
of which chips had waivers for which particularly obscure
issues). But even these would not help you understand the
architecture any better. All the ones that were relevant
to what I was doing were called out in system specific
documentation anyway.
(I'm designing a new VAX CPU chip, so I have to
have a very
solid picture of the spec requirements and options and their
evolution.)
I think I've said before, what you really want is not STD 032
but AXE, the tool that runs on your new VAX and checks for
correct operation of instructions.
Since the MMU is internal to the CPU chip, the
difference
between KA630 and KA620 is in the silicon (78032 vs. 78R32)
rather than board-level.
Yes. KA620 was a mangled chip and not a mangled board.
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
2:37 p.m.
On Friday 19 March 2004 20:27, Antonio Carlini wrote:
The only major omission is the Virtual VAX stuff
(which was
done for some three letter agency but never became a product
- I heard that it just ran way too slowly to be useful).
It has its own SID (09 IIRC, I guess(0)07 was already taken :-)).
Virtual Vax?
alex/melt
2:53 p.m.
>>>> "meltie" == meltie
<lists(a)microvax.org> writes:
meltie> On Friday 19 March 2004 20:27, Antonio Carlini wrote:
> The only major omission is the Virtual VAX stuff
(which was done
> for some three letter agency but never became a product - I heard
> that it just ran way too slowly to be useful). It has its own SID
> (09 IIRC, I guess(0)07 was already taken :-)).
meltie> Virtual Vax?
Probably for SEVMS -- multilevel security VMS running inside virtual
machines on a real machine. The same thing was contemplated for
Alpha, but I don't think it became real.
paul
2:51 p.m.
>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini
<arcarlini(a)iee.org> writes:
> early VARMs, the EK-VAXAR-RM ones, are lovely:
100% pure ASCII,
> except for boldface section headers the book is line printer
> output.
Antonio> One of the standard questions I recall within DEC was "can I
Antonio> have an electronic copy of STD 032" to which the standard
Antonio> answer was "No, there's no such thing". Obviously there
Antonio> *was* such a thing, it just never got released that way. It
Antonio> only came out (AFAIK) in hardcopy. Same with the Alpha SRM.
That sounds right. I never had a VAX SRM but I had an Alpha SRM for a
while, and it was a "limited distribution numbered copies" type of
document. The sort of thing that you have to send back to the
originator for disposal and logging when you no longer need it.
DEC didn't do that level of security very often, but they did on
occasion.
From what I remember, the difference between the Alpha
SRM and the
stuff that was published externally was quite large, much larger than
what you describe for VAX. But after 12 years I no longer remember
what it was (and in any case I'd still have to obey confidentiality
about it anyway).
paul
22 Mar
22 Mar
5:21 p.m.
That sounds right. I never had a VAX SRM but I had an
Alpha
SRM for a while, and it was a "limited distribution numbered
copies" type of
document. The sort of thing that you have to send back to the
originator for disposal and logging when you no longer need it.
The Alpha SRM I was lent for a while was numbered somewhere between
900 and 1100 (I forget the exact number). This was probably past the
initial highly secretive stage (I guess this was about 1996 or so)
which probably accounted for the high number, but I was still
surprised that they were bothering to keep tabs on such stuff by then.
The only other restricted distribution document I received was
something pretty obscure (obscure enough that I don't remember exactly
what it was). It was in electronic format, but as it would only
print on an LN03 (or compatible later printer) because it was
(IIRC) entiurely in sixel format, I guess that was considered
secure enough!
From what I remember, the difference between the Alpha
SRM and the
stuff that was published externally was quite large, much
larger than what you describe for VAX. But after 12 years I
no longer remember what it was (and in any case I'd still
have to obey confidentiality about it anyway).
In terms of volume, I don't think there's much in it. The published
AARM is a hefty tome; it's physically smaller than the restricted
SRM but the AARM is in a smaller font and on thinner paper. I also
think that the SRM I saw was printer single sided, but I'm no longer
really sure of that.
The main difference I recall was that the Alpha SRM was full of
"EV6 *may* do this" bits which were absent in the contemporaneous
AARM. AFAICR those bits which actually happened (and were relevant)
appeared in later versions of the AARM. Overall I found the
level of "openness" in the Alpha docs much higher than in VAX.
Mostly I guess this was due to the fact that publishing electronic
docs was so much easier than had been the case when VAX and PDP
machines had their heyday.
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
19 Mar
19 Mar
8:47 p.m.
Much more interesting was the list of VAX bugs (i.e.
the list of
which chips had waivers for which particularly obscure issues). But
even these would not help you understand the architecture any better.
No, but they would help you write code to run on them!
I think I've said before, what you really want is
not STD 032 but
AXE, the tool that runs on your new VAX and checks for correct
operation of instructions.
If such a thing can be pried loose, I'd love a copy. I intend to build
a VAX emulator at some point and I'd feel more confident if I had
exhaustive exerciser tests for it. (I have a rudimentary version
working now, but I have to just trust that I haven't made some subtle
mistake somewhere....)
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
22 Mar
22 Mar
5:24 p.m.
If such a thing can be pried loose, I'd love a
copy. I
intend to build a VAX emulator at some point and I'd feel
more confident if I had exhaustive exerciser tests for it.
(I have a rudimentary version working now, but I have to just
trust that I haven't made some subtle mistake somewhere....)
I never had access to AXE, but as I understand it, it would
generate semi-random sequences of instructions and then
execute them. Then it would compare the actual results
with known good results. I don't know the details of how
it would determine "known good results" given that the sequence
was semi-random.
So you would kick it off and if the machine under test did not
fall over in a heap after a few weeks or months of running,
then it was probably good enough.
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
5:39 p.m.
Antonio Carlini wrote:
I never had access to AXE, but as I understand it, it
would
generate semi-random sequences of instructions and then
execute them. Then it would compare the actual results
with known good results. I don't know the details of how
it would determine "known good results" given that the sequence
was semi-random.
So you would kick it off and if the machine under test did not
fall over in a heap after a few weeks or months of running,
then it was probably good enough.
But it still might never catch something like the Pentium divide bug.
Anyhow are not most problems with hardware and software now dynamic
in nature? My latest game freezes when I click on blah blah blah after
switching video modes during the internet software driver download.
Antonio
23 Mar
23 Mar
8:18 a.m.
>>>> "ben" == ben franchuk
<bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> writes:
ben> Antonio Carlini wrote:
> I never had access to AXE, but as I understand it,
it would
> generate semi-random sequences of instructions and then execute
> them. Then it would compare the actual results with known good
> results. I don't know the details of how it would determine "known
> good results" given that the sequence was semi-random.
>
> So you would kick it off and if the machine under test did not
> fall over in a heap after a few weeks or months of running, then
> it was probably good enough.
ben> But it still might never catch something like the Pentium divide
ben> bug. Anyhow are not most problems with hardware and software
ben> now dynamic in nature? My latest game freezes when I click on
ben> blah blah blah after switching video modes during the internet
ben> software driver download.
Sure, but those are software bugs, not processor instruction
implementation bugs.
Meanwhile, something like AXE is your best bet to catch unexpected
instruction interactions. It was used because it provides FAR better
coverage than conventional CPU diagnostics. Not alone, of course --
you still want to pass regular diagnostics, and run all the
applications you can think of. And the microcode still has to be
carefully designed and coded. But AXE adds yet another level of
assurance to the implementation.
paul
2:33 p.m.
Paul Koning wrote:
Meanwhile, something like AXE is your best bet to
catch unexpected
instruction interactions. It was used because it provides FAR better
coverage than conventional CPU diagnostics. Not alone, of course --
you still want to pass regular diagnostics, and run all the
applications you can think of. And the microcode still has to be
carefully designed and coded. But AXE adds yet another level of
assurance to the implementation.
Forget the axe!
Build simpler computers that work!
paul
I don't still don't trust it! CPU diagnostics needs to be designed into
the CPU in the design not added later. But CPU's nowdays are designed
for speed not long life. Also what happens when AXE or any other test
finds a FAULT. Crash the system or what?
-------------------------------------------------
+ Windows error 66666 System tests OK! +
+ Windows error 99999 System does not test OK! +
-------------------------------------------------
Ben.
2:45 p.m.
Forget the axe!
Build simpler computers that work!
[snip]
I don't still don't trust it! CPU diagnostics
needs to be
designed into
the CPU in the design not added later. But CPU's nowdays are designed
for speed not long life. Also what happens when AXE or any other test
finds a FAULT. Crash the system or what?
I think you've missed what AXE does.
I give you a spec for the chip (in this case DEC STD 032, the
VAX Architetcure Manual). You build the chip.
I want to know if you've built a chip that meets
the spec or just one that "almost" meets the spec.
AXE runs in my lab on the chips that you have built. If it fails,
you've goofed (or AXE needs fixing, but if yours is the Nth design
in line, I know where I'd place my money :-)). If it has not
failed after a few weeks, then *maybe* you earned your money
over the last few weeks, months or years.
So AXE runs in the labs not on customer systems. By the time
customers have systems it's far too late to be looking for
chip design and/or implementation errors.
CPU diags are there to check that the chip was stamped properly
at the factory and still works after you spurt coke all over it.
That's not AXE's job.
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
4:14 p.m.
Antonio Carlini wrote:
I think you've missed what AXE does.
I give you a spec for the chip (in this case DEC STD 032, the
VAX Architetcure Manual). You build the chip.
I did miss that point that it is a pre-production rather than
a post-production test.
I want to know if you've built a chip that meets
the spec or just one that "almost" meets the spec.
Don't look at me , my CPU's never meet the spec,
but then again I am not doing a commerical product.
Like who would invest in a NEW LS-TTL computer?
I tend to be over 20 ns my clock period or way too
many chips but I have fun unlike people in the real
world desiging CPU's.
CPU diags are there to check that the chip was stamped
properly
at the factory and still works after you spurt coke all over it.
Umm what about the cold pizza too?
That's not AXE's job.
Thank you for the
insight.
Ben.
24 Mar
24 Mar
7:27 p.m.
Actually there are a number of us interested in Low power Schottky versions
of of CPUs <grin>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctech-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben franchuk
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:14 PM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: KA620
>>
>> Antonio Carlini wrote:
>>
>> > I think you've missed what AXE does.
>> >
>> > I give you a spec for the chip (in this case DEC STD 032, the VAX
>> > Architetcure Manual). You build the chip.
>>
>> I did miss that point that it is a pre-production rather
>> than a post-production test.
>>
>> > I want to know if you've built a chip that meets the spec
>> or just one
>> > that "almost" meets the spec.
>>
>> Don't look at me , my CPU's never meet the spec, but then
>> again I am not doing a commerical product.
>> Like who would invest in a NEW LS-TTL computer?
>> I tend to be over 20 ns my clock period or way too many
>> chips but I have fun unlike people in the real world desiging CPU's.
>>
>>
>>
>> > CPU diags are there to check that the chip was stamped
>> properly at the
>> > factory and still works after you spurt coke all over it.
>>
>> Umm what about the cold pizza too?
>>
>> > That's not AXE's job.
>> Thank you for the insight.
>> Ben.
>>
>>
>>
>>
7:45 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
David V. Corbin wrote:
Actually there are a number of us interested in Low
power Schottky versions
of of CPUs <grin>
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
We have 1 vote for a VAX.
I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit homebrew CPU.
(Grumble all the good names have been taken)
Ben.
8:02 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
It was written...
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old
computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
Well, if you're going to build a blinkenlights functioning replica - go
all
the way and do an IBM 360/70.
Jay
8:40 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Well, if you're going to build a blinkenlights
functioning replica - go all
the way and do an IBM 360/70.
S/360 model 91 is the one to do (I assume you do not mean S/360 model
70). That is the one with the astounding number of lights.
Rememberm if you do a replica, be sure to include the sound of many
fans...
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
8:54 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, William Donzelli wrote:
S/360 model 91 is the one to do (I assume you do not
mean S/360 model
70). That is the one with the astounding number of lights.
Rememberm if you do a replica, be sure to include the sound of many
fans...
and room air conditioning
smell of oil from the key punch stations
appropriate level of power consumption
9:10 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
C'mon.... build a replica kit for a system that most of us DONT have, and
probably never will get.
Lots of us have vaxen, lots of us have PDP's... but I'd venture few of us
will ever touch a 360 these days. So lets build the one we'll probably never
get a real one of!
Jay
9:19 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Jay West wrote:
C'mon.... build a replica kit for a system that
most of us DONT have, and
probably never will get.
Lots of us have vaxen, lots of us have PDP's... but I'd venture few of us
will ever touch a 360 these days. So lets build the one we'll probably never
get a real one of!
One word:
SAGE
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
10:15 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, William Donzelli wrote:
Ok, one ACRONYM.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
One word:
SAGE
Ummm, that's four words. 
25 Mar
25 Mar
12:42 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Lots of us have vaxen, lots of us have PDP's...
but I'd venture few of us
will ever touch a 360 these days. So lets build the one we'll
probably never
get a real one of!
Multics (!) - or any of the GE600 famility (-> Honeywell 600 -> Honeywell
6000 -> Level 66/Level 68)
or, for the truly nostalgic CS theorists, B5500 and successors
Atlas - the origin of virtual memory (and, hey, it wouldn't be difficult to
make more replicas than there were originals!)
Andy
26 Mar
26 Mar
1:15 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:42:23 -0000
"Andy Holt" <andyh(a)andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
The IBM 650, so we can follow in Knuth's path.
(my father programmed on the 650 back in about 1960)
Lots of us have vaxen, lots of us have
PDP's... but I'd venture few of us
will ever touch a 360 these days. So lets build the one we'll
probably never
get a real one of!
Multics (!) - or any of the GE600 famility (-> Honeywell 600 -> Honeywell
6000 -> Level 66/Level 68)
or, for the truly nostalgic CS theorists, B5500 and successors
Atlas - the origin of virtual memory (and, hey, it wouldn't be difficult to
make more replicas than there were originals!)
25 Mar
25 Mar
10:57 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
C'mon.... build a replica kit for a system that
most of us DONT have, and
probably never will get.
In hindsight, an impossible wish might be a blinkenlights version of an
first generation AS/400.
Lots of us have vaxen, lots of us have PDP's...
but I'd venture few of us
will ever touch a 360 these days. So lets build the one we'll probably never
get a real one of!
I am still quite suprised one has not shown up on Ebay yet. Fer cryin' out
loud, IBM made a lot of 'em...
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
30 Mar
30 Mar
2:49 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Jay West wrote:
Lots of us have vaxen, lots of us have PDP's...
but I'd venture few of us
will ever touch a 360 these days. So lets build the one we'll probably never
get a real one of!
I think you need a bit of perspective here! "Lots of us" is
a microscopic crowd, a very few hardcore collectors with the
$ to stockpile. I haven't even SEEN a PDP-8 (for example)
for > 20 years, other than in a museum, and then only twice
(Mtn. View, San Diego). And I even know about them and used
their historical compatriots.
5:06 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
I think you need a bit of perspective here! "Lots
of us" is
a microscopic crowd, a very few hardcore collectors with the
$ to stockpile.
I think the number of people on this list with PDPs of some flavor would
be quite high - maybe at least 20 percent? It is a rough guess, but
judging from the posts here and there over the years...
As far as "$ to stockpile" - almost anyone on this list could have a PDP-8
(with the exception of a Straight, LINC-8, or -8/S) if they put their mind
to it. They are still out there, so if money is problem, old fashioned
legwork will eventually pay off. An then there is ebay, of course, and we
all know that quite few PDP-8s appear every year. Spending $1000-2000 for
a PDP-8 (maybe an 8/E) is really not completely insane. Put in some
overtime, wheel and deal, sacrifice a few other luxuries, whatever -
budget and save and that $2000 will appear.
Now an S/360 is a different matter. I have worked my legs for something
like seven years for one, and nothing has come my way (although I missed
that model 22 by a few weeks, I think). I have also made a serious budget
for one if Ebay finally pops one up, but none have. Where am I to get one?
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
6:22 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On March 30, 2004 06:06 pm, William Donzelli wrote:
Now an S/360 is a different matter. I have worked my
legs for something
like seven years for one, and nothing has come my way (although I missed
that model 22 by a few weeks, I think). I have also made a serious budget
for one if Ebay finally pops one up, but none have. Where am I to get one?
I mentioned the desire for a S/360 to an IBM rep this past weekend. He said
he couldn't give away the last one he had.
Also there is a problem of getting the software for it. He mentioned that a
developers license was available for ~15,000.
Has anyone asked IBM to consider a hobbyist license?
- --
Ottawa, Canada
Collector of vintage computers
http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600
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31 Mar
31 Mar
12:54 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Tuesday 30 March 2004 19:22, Mike wrote:
On March 30, 2004 06:06 pm, William Donzelli wrote:
Umm, you can at least get OS/360 for free:
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/
Right now I'm having trouble with their website, however... Anyways,
IBM put OS/360 in the public domain, and I've got a CD image with it on
there, for use with Hercules.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Now an S/360 is a different matter. I have worked
my legs for
something like seven years for one, and nothing has come my way
(although I missed that model 22 by a few weeks, I think). I have
also made a serious budget for one if Ebay finally pops one up, but
none have. Where am I to get one?
I mentioned the desire for a S/360 to an IBM rep this past weekend.
He said he couldn't give away the last one he had.
Also there is a problem of getting the software for it. He
mentioned that a developers license was available for ~15,000.
Has anyone asked IBM to consider a hobbyist license? 
2:32 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
Right now I'm having trouble with their website,
however... Anyways,
IBM put OS/360 in the public domain, and I've got a CD image with it on
there, for use with Hercules.
IIRC, it's not so much that they put it into the public domain, as
they failed to copywrite it, and it was released long enough ago that
it had to be explicitly copywrited.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
30 Mar
30 Mar
7:02 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas -PDP-8
There are also a number of available commercial replicas that use a
microprocessor rather than discrete logic.
Software is compatable, has all the switches and blinken lights.
A full system can be aquired for under $1000 (much cheaper if you build it
yourself)
I have one here that I picked up a while back to keep the cravings within
reason until I can
Find a real on (Link/8, /I /L /E in order of preference for anyone thinking
of parting with something.
My greatest desire is getting a working TU-56 drive. But these seem to be in
very short supply..
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:07 PM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
>> Subject: Re: Computer Replicas
>>
>> > I think you need a bit of perspective here! "Lots of us" is a
>> > microscopic crowd, a very few hardcore collectors with the $ to
>> > stockpile.
>>
>> I think the number of people on this list with PDPs of some
>> flavor would be quite high - maybe at least 20 percent? It
>> is a rough guess, but judging from the posts here and there
>> over the years...
>>
>> As far as "$ to stockpile" - almost anyone on this list
>> could have a PDP-8 (with the exception of a Straight,
>> LINC-8, or -8/S) if they put their mind to it. They are
>> still out there, so if money is problem, old fashioned
>> legwork will eventually pay off. An then there is ebay, of
>> course, and we all know that quite few PDP-8s appear every
>> year. Spending $1000-2000 for a PDP-8 (maybe an 8/E) is
>> really not completely insane. Put in some overtime, wheel
>> and deal, sacrifice a few other luxuries, whatever - budget
>> and save and that $2000 will appear.
>>
>> Now an S/360 is a different matter. I have worked my legs
>> for something like seven years for one, and nothing has
>> come my way (although I missed that model 22 by a few
>> weeks, I think). I have also made a serious budget for one
>> if Ebay finally pops one up, but none have. Where am I to get one?
>>
>> William Donzelli
>> aw288(a)osfn.org
>>
>>
11:40 p.m.
New subject: Vernon Buerg "List" clone for "C"
Pardon my ignorance, but is anyone aware of a clone for Vernon
Buerg's LIST program that will run on the various Unix flavors?
It would be awfully handy on my shell account!
- don
31 Mar
31 Mar
1:05 a.m.
New subject: Vernon Buerg "List" clone for "C"
Pardon my ignorance, but is anyone aware of a clone
for Vernon
Buerg's LIST program that will run on the various Unix flavors?
Assuming you're talking about the program http://www.buerg.com/list.htm
describes...well, it's very thoroughly counter to the Unix philosphy of
"each program does just one thing and does it well". At a minimum, it
would have to include the equivalent of - or be prepared to fork and
process output from - tip/chat ("dialer"), tar/pax/cpio/ar/etc (the
various archive features), lpr/lprng/etc (printing), grep/egrep/etc
(searching), find (directory tree walking), hexdump (looking at things
in hex), and possibly others (for example, I don't know what "network
compatible" is supposed to mean).
This probably could be done, but it would be a pretty horrible mess.
It would be awfully handy on my shell account!
Perhaps. You probably would be better off, in the long run, learning
to use the full power of the existing tools, though; you'll be able to
do things with them that LIST cannot do[%], the skill gained will be
fairly directly portable to other Unix systems (as opposed to having to
install the LIST-alike), and you will learn a good deal about the
underlying OS in the process.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
[%] At least based on the advertised list of features.
1 Apr
1 Apr
12:42 a.m.
New subject: Vernon Buerg "List" clone for "C"
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, der Mouse wrote:
I was probably over inclusive when I spoke of a clone as far as
features are concerned. What I was thinking of was the ability to
be presented with a directory of files, select one with a cursor,
and display it a page at a time as List does. It also permits
calling up various archive opening ancillaries which can be rather
handy. A dialer and other esoteric 'capabilities' are of no
interest. I don't even use them in DOS.
So within those limited boundries does anyone have any helpful
suggestions to offer.
- don
Pardon my
ignorance, but is anyone aware of a clone for Vernon
Buerg's LIST program that will run on the various Unix flavors?
Assuming you're talking about the program http://www.buerg.com/list.htm
describes...well, it's very thoroughly counter to the Unix philosphy of
"each program does just one thing and does it well". At a minimum, it
would have to include the equivalent of - or be prepared to fork and
process output from - tip/chat ("dialer"), tar/pax/cpio/ar/etc (the
various archive features), lpr/lprng/etc (printing), grep/egrep/etc
(searching), find (directory tree walking), hexdump (looking at things
in hex), and possibly others (for example, I don't know what "network
compatible" is supposed to mean). This probably could be done, but it would be a pretty
horrible mess.
It would be awfully handy on my shell account!
Perhaps. You probably would be better off, in the long run, learning
to use the full power of the existing tools, though; you'll be able to
do things with them that LIST cannot do[%], the skill gained will be
fairly directly portable to other Unix systems (as opposed to having to
install the LIST-alike), and you will learn a good deal about the
underlying OS in the process.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
[%] At least based on the advertised list of features.
10:55 a.m.
New subject: Vernon Buerg "List" clone for "C"
Don Maslin wrote:
I was probably over inclusive when I spoke of a clone as far as
features are concerned. What I was thinking of was the ability to
be presented with a directory of files, select one with a cursor,
and display it a page at a time as List does. It also permits
calling up various archive opening ancillaries which can be rather
handy. A dialer and other esoteric 'capabilities' are of no
interest. I don't even use them in DOS.
So within those limited boundries does anyone have any helpful
suggestions to offer.
Midnight Commander (mc). Comes with many Linux distributions.
2:49 p.m.
New subject: Vernon Buerg "List" clone for "C"
On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Kevin Handy wrote:
Don Maslin wrote:
Thanks!
- don
I was probably over inclusive when I spoke of a clone as far as
features are concerned. What I was thinking of was the ability to
be presented with a directory of files, select one with a cursor,
and display it a page at a time as List does. It also permits
calling up various archive opening ancillaries which can be rather
handy. A dialer and other esoteric 'capabilities' are of no
interest. I don't even use them in DOS.
So within those limited boundries does anyone have any helpful
suggestions to offer.
Midnight Commander (mc). Comes with many Linux distributions. 
12:30 p.m.
New subject: Vernon Buerg "List" clone for "C"
What I was thinking of was the ability to be presented
with
a directory of files, select one with a cursor, and display
it a page at a time as List does.
What I do is open 'vi', perform a 'find' within it,
then operate on individual lines. For files of different
extensions I wrote a very simple launcher csh(ell script
to do the object-oriented-open function.
Kinda hackey, but still quicker than Windows in most
situations.
John A.
30 Mar
30 Mar
7:41 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:06:31 -0500 (EST)
William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> wrote:
I have a few tubes of IM6100 Microprocessor chips, which is the first generation
'PDP-8 on a chip.' That's as close as I come to having a PDP-8 though. I
programmed a PDP-8 in the 'Introduction to Computer Programming' course that I
took at Hamline University in St. Paul, Minnesota in 1978. And I worked at a Microfilm
shop that had COM (Computer Output to Microfilm) Cameras controlled by PDP-8 processors a
few years after that. Otherwise I have had little experience with DEC gear, though
I'm about ready to track down my first VAX sometime soon (I hope).
I think you
need a bit of perspective here! "Lots of us" is
a microscopic crowd, a very few hardcore collectors with the
$ to stockpile.
I think the number of people on this list with PDPs of some flavor would
be quite high - maybe at least 20 percent? It is a rough guess, but
judging from the posts here and there over the years...
As far as "$ to stockpile" - almost anyone
on this list could have a PDP-8
(with the exception of a Straight, LINC-8, or -8/S) if they put their mind
to it. They are still out there, so if money is problem, old fashioned
legwork will eventually pay off. An then there is ebay, of course, and we
all know that quite few PDP-8s appear every year. Spending $1000-2000 for
a PDP-8 (maybe an 8/E) is really not completely insane. Put in some
overtime, wheel and deal, sacrifice a few other luxuries, whatever -
budget and save and that $2000 will appear.
Now an S/360 is a different matter. I have worked my legs for something
like seven years for one, and nothing has come my way (although I missed
that model 22 by a few weeks, I think). I have also made a serious budget
for one if Ebay finally pops one up, but none have. Where am I to get one?
Wouldn't you need a raised floor/controlled-environment to run a S/360? My dad worked
with those back in the day, and I have an authentic official 'System 360' Ashtray
still in the box that he brought home, but that's the only S/360 item in my
collection. Anybody else have a S/360 ashtry, or one of the wooden 'THINK' desk
signs IBM distributed in the 60's? (still have one of those dad gave me, too) I
really, REALLY wish I hadn't lost track of the IBM LP record I used to have from some
IBM Symposium. It had IBMers singing songs, etc. They had an official Company song, back
in the day.
10:56 p.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 08:41:51PM -0500, Scott Stevens wrote:
I have a few tubes of IM6100 Microprocessor chips,
which is the first
generation 'PDP-8 on a chip.'
I have a tube as well (as do many of us, here and on the PDP-8 lists).
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard info on the Intercept
Jr. or the Jolt. I have brief descriptions in a 1978 Popular Electronics
special issue in a section reviewing "all" of the available microcomputers
of the day.
That's all I've got. I know they aren't particularly powerful machines
(ISTR without external logic, the IM6100 is limited to 4KW, among other
issues), but I'd like to know more about them just the same.
I also bought that tube of IM6100s in the hope that by the principle
of "classic attraction", I'd run across a VT78... hasn't happened
yet. :-)
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Mar-2004 04:51 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.7 F (-61.5 C) Windchill -120.9 F (-85 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 9.1 kts Grid 022 Barometer 674.6 mb (10832. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
31 Mar
31 Mar
2:55 a.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I have a tube as well (as do many of us, here and on
the PDP-8 lists).
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard info on the Intercept
Jr. or the Jolt. I have brief descriptions in a 1978 Popular Electronics
special issue in a section reviewing "all" of the available microcomputers
of the day.
I've got the manual(s) for the Intercept Jr. I think I even know where
they are :)
The JOLT is a 6502 SBC.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
3:23 a.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:55:23 -0800 (PST)
Vintage Computer Festival <vcf(a)siconic.com> wrote:
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
My copy of the IM6100 and Intercept Jr. docs is in electronic-only form. I received it in
the form of multi-page TIF files awhile back and converted it all to PDF for my personal
use. I've decided to risk the bandwidth-suck of putting some of it up on some
webspace of mine. The IM6100 datasheet and the Intercept Jr. Manual, including
schematics, will shortly be available at http://sasteven.multics.org/IM6100/ Please note
that the Intercept Jr. Manual is a huge 13.5 meg scanned PDF. Individual pages, i.e. the
schematics, etc. can be made available as stand-alone pages if need be. I have datasheets
in this format for the whole 6100 series chipset family and also the larger Intercept
system. For those who want the whole thing, it would be much more practical to send out
CDRs in the mail. If someone wants to host all this info they are welcome to it.
I have a tube as well (as do many of us, here and
on the PDP-8 lists).
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard info on the Intercept
Jr. or the Jolt. I have brief descriptions in a 1978 Popular Electronics
special issue in a section reviewing "all" of the available microcomputers
of the day.
I've got the manual(s) for the Intercept Jr. I think I even know where
they are :)
7:13 a.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 04:23:15AM -0500, Scott Stevens wrote:
For those who want the whole thing, it would be much
more practical to
send out CDRs in the mail.
Well, speaking for myself, I'd rather D/L 40Mb than wait for late October
for U.S. Mail to resume.
I'm happy to download whatever before November.
Cheers,
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Mar-2004 13:11 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -76.9 F (-60.5 C) Windchill -132.2 F (-91.2 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 12.2 kts Grid 003 Barometer 677.1 mb (10735. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
7:10 a.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 12:55:23AM -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Care to share? :-)
I have a tube as well (as do many of us, here and
on the PDP-8 lists).
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard info on the Intercept
Jr. or the Jolt.
I've got the manual(s) for the Intercept Jr. I think I even know where
they are :) The JOLT is a 6502 SBC.
Whoops... maybe it is... I forget... I _think_ there were two IM6100
micros in 1978... if it isn't the Intercept Jr., what am I thinking
of?
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Mar-2004 13:01 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77 F (-60.6 C) Windchill -136.3 F (-93.5 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 13.2 kts Grid 006 Barometer 677.1 mb (10735. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
3 a.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:56:56 +0000
Ethan Dicks <dickset(a)amanda.spole.gov> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 08:41:51PM -0500, Scott
Stevens wrote:
I have (I think) a full set of the docs for the Intercept and Intercept, Jr. systems, and
full datasheets for the IM6100 and the Harris second source part. My 6100 chips are
actually the Harris part. I have it all converted into PDF files and if anybody wants it
I can put it up on private webspace and post the URL (or email it). Or send out CDs.
The 6100 is quite limited, being it only addresses 4K of memory, but it's also
extremely easy to put together a circuit for. It has really non-critical clocking
requirements, you can even drive the clock in true 'single step' with a pushbutton
or a 1 Hz clock if you like. Hook up a reed relay to the hamster wheel or what-not.
The 6120 is a much nicer processor to put together a 'real' single-board PDP-8
system. What I'd like to make out of a 6100 chip is a primative 'program with
toggle switches and read LEDs' system that would recreate the experience of
programming the PDP-8 at the switch panel in machine code. I'd envision a
single-board with the processor, the blinking lights and row of switches, with a little
memory, probably some of it battery-backed SRAM. Nothing more complex than that. I
don't envision running FOCAL or an OS or anything complex on such a little thing. It
would just be a cool 'toy' to dabble in machine code on toggle switches with. If
others had more ambitious plans that would be neat, too, but this has already been done so
nicely with the 6120 that it probably isn't worth it. Much as we can be nostalgic, 4K
isn't a very big memoryspace, even with a 12 bit wordlength.
-Scott
I have a few tubes of IM6100 Microprocessor
chips, which is the first
generation 'PDP-8 on a chip.'
I have a tube as well (as do many of us, here and on the PDP-8 lists).
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard info on the Intercept
Jr. or the Jolt. I have brief descriptions in a 1978 Popular Electronics
special issue in a section reviewing "all" of the available microcomputers
of the day.
That's all I've got. I know they aren't particularly powerful machines
(ISTR without external logic, the IM6100 is limited to 4KW, among other
issues), but I'd like to know more about them just the same.
I also bought that tube of IM6100s in the hope that by the principle
of "classic attraction", I'd run across a VT78... hasn't happened
yet. :-)
-ethan
9:35 a.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
At 11:56 PM 3/30/04, you wrote:
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard
info on the Intercept
Jr. or the Jolt.
The 1981-1982 Synertek databook mentions the "CP110 Super Jolt" on
page 5-2:
SY6502 NMOS 8-Bit Microcomputer
1K Bytes of Static RAM Memory
64K Bytes of Interrupt Vector RAM
28 Bi-Directional Programmable I/O Lines
1 MHz Crystal Controlled Clock
Interval Timer
Four Interrupts, Including a Timer Interrupt and a Non-Maskable Interrupt
Three Serial Interfaces - 20 mA Current Loop, RS-232-C and TTL
Buffered Address and Data Lines
1,024 Bytes of Resident ROM Program Memory Containing DEMON Debug
Monitor Program
Dimensions 4.25 in. x 7.00 in
The CP110 SUPER JOLT CPU board is the most
versatile microcomputer on a single PC board.
Connected to a terminal, the CP110 provides
everything necessary to begin writing, debugging,
assembling and executing microcomputer
programs. Stand-alone, the CP110 is a
single board OEM microcomputer suited to a
wide range of dedicated applications.
Cheers,
Dan
www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html
12:57 p.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
I also bought that tube of IM6100s in the hope that by
the
principle of "classic attraction", I'd run across a VT78...
hasn't happened yet. :-)
I think the reason it has not worked is that my WT78 weighs so
much more than your tube of IM6100s ... still, now I know
where to go should my WT ever become sick :-)
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini(a)iee.org
5:33 p.m.
New subject: IM6100 (was Re: Computer Replicas)
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote:
What I'd like to know is if anyone has any hard
info on the Intercept
Jr. or the Jolt. I have brief descriptions in a 1978 Popular Electronics
special issue in a section reviewing "all" of the available microcomputers
of the day.
My father brought home from work (USGS) both an Intercept and the Jr.
I really coveted the big one! Rack mount chassis! The Jr was OK though,
the KIM-1 model, PCB with hex (erm, probably octal) display and keypad.
1:02 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
Woa... Some of us have families to support. Spending $2,000 (or
even $1,000 on classic computer h/w is
completely out of the question). I've long longed for a
blinken-lights machine, but all of my computer
collecting has been at the low $ end of the spectrum and so-far I've
not stumbled into an opportunity for
blinkenlights.
-Bob
--
bbrown(a)harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR
Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator
Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace
I think you
need a bit of perspective here! "Lots of us" is
a microscopic crowd, a very few hardcore collectors with the
$ to stockpile.
I think the number of people on this list with PDPs of some flavor would
be quite high - maybe at least 20 percent? It is a rough guess, but
judging from the posts here and there over the years...
As far as "$ to stockpile" - almost anyone on this list could have a PDP-8
(with the exception of a Straight, LINC-8, or -8/S) if they put their mind
to it. They are still out there, so if money is problem, old fashioned
legwork will eventually pay off. An then there is ebay, of course, and we
all know that quite few PDP-8s appear every year. Spending $1000-2000 for
a PDP-8 (maybe an 8/E) is really not completely insane. Put in some
overtime, wheel and deal, sacrifice a few other luxuries, whatever -
budget and save and that $2000 will appear.
Now an S/360 is a different matter. I have worked my legs for something
like seven years for one, and nothing has come my way (although I missed
that model 22 by a few weeks, I think). I have also made a serious budget
for one if Ebay finally pops one up, but none have. Where am I to get one?
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
25 Mar
25 Mar
12:42 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Well, if
you're going to build a blinkenlights functioning
replica - go all
the way and do an IBM 360/70.
S/360 model 91 is the one to do (I assume you do not mean S/360 model
70). That is the one with the astounding number of lights.
7:33 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Well, if you're going to build a blinkenlights
functioning
replica - go all
the way and do an IBM 360/70.
S/360 model 91 is the one to do (I assume you do not mean S/360 model
70). That is the one with the astounding number of lights. (plus, later, /67 and /9x for various x - most
commonly 1)
I was not referring to a 360/70... I was referring to a 360 or a 370.
Jay
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
3:59 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Apart from anything else, there wasn't a 360/70
(tho' it was originally
intended that there be) - the mid-high part of the range went /50, /65, /75
(plus, later, /67 and /9x for various x - most commonly 1)
I was not going to nitpick.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
24 Mar
24 Mar
8:20 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Wed, 2004-03-24 at 17:45, ben franchuk wrote:
David V. Corbin wrote:
My vote is for a metal box, with lots of blinken lights all over it, and
a few non-sensically cryptic words and stripes silk screened artfully
under specific areas and light groupings. Oh, and add a few toggle or
paddle switches that probably don't actually do anything. Paint it a sky
blue or chartreuse green, with orange or purple stripes, and it would be
perfect. I don't care if it computes or not. I just like flippin
switches and blinken lights. Weird paint schemes are good, also, and the
box should use massive amounts of electricity and heat the entire house
all by itself. We need more replica's like THAT.
Actually there are a number of us interested in
Low power Schottky versions
of of CPUs <grin>
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
We have 1 vote for a VAX.
I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit homebrew CPU.
(Grumble all the good names have been taken)
8:30 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's B-205
Ernest wrote:
My vote is for a metal box, with lots of blinken
lights all over it, and
a few non-sensically cryptic words and stripes silk screened artfully
under specific areas and light groupings. Oh, and add a few toggle or
paddle switches that probably don't actually do anything. Paint it a sky
blue or chartreuse green, with orange or purple stripes, and it would be
perfect. I don't care if it computes or not. I just like flippin
switches and blinken lights. Weird paint schemes are good, also, and the
box should use massive amounts of electricity and heat the entire house
all by itself. We need more replica's like THAT.
You mean like here.
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/
Ben.
PS. They seem to have parts of a real B205 complete with tubes.
A good restore project around Portland, Oregon?. Check the site for
details. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/ecd.html
Ben.
8:53 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's B-205
On Wed, 2004-03-24 at 18:30, ben franchuk wrote:
Ernest wrote:
Ah! That's exactly what I was thinking of. Put that in a can, and I'll
buy it.
My vote is for a metal box, with lots of blinken
lights all over it, and
a few non-sensically cryptic words and stripes silk screened artfully
under specific areas and light groupings. Oh, and add a few toggle or
paddle switches that probably don't actually do anything. Paint it a sky
blue or chartreuse green, with orange or purple stripes, and it would be
perfect. I don't care if it computes or not. I just like flippin
switches and blinken lights. Weird paint schemes are good, also, and the
box should use massive amounts of electricity and heat the entire house
all by itself. We need more replica's like THAT.
You mean like here.
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/
Ben.
9:06 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
It was written...
My vote is for a metal box, with lots of blinken
lights all over it, and
a few non-sensically cryptic words and stripes silk screened artfully
under specific areas and light groupings. Oh, and add a few toggle or
paddle switches that probably don't actually do anything....
If we build one a month and sell them on ebay under the title "EXTREMELY
RARE", each one that sells, one of us can retire.
Jay
9:40 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Jay West wrote:
Now is that in Ink or Blood? :)
BYW Somebody said building a SAGE replica. Is that even unclassified
If we build one a month and sell them on ebay
under the title "EXTREMELY
RARE", each one that sells, one of us can retire.
Don't forget to have all of the developers sign the inside of the case!
from the US military?
Ben.
9:54 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
BYW Somebody said building a SAGE replica. Is that
even unclassified
from the US military?
Yes, but I don't know if anyone has manuals for the computer portion
(AN/FSQ-7 and -8). I have a number of manuals for other parts of SAGE
(remember, SAGE was much more than the computer). All have been
declassified, many years ago.
All of the SAGE manuals I have ever seen have been Confidential,
Restricted, or Unclassifed, not Secret.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
25 Mar
25 Mar
10:42 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
>>>> "William" == William
Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> writes:
> BYW Somebody said building a SAGE replica. Is that
even
> unclassified from the US military?
William> Yes, but I don't know if anyone has manuals for the computer
William> portion (AN/FSQ-7 and -8).
How about this:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sage/31P2-2FSQ7-112_SagePgmNov56.pdf
("Theory of Programming -- AN-FSQ-7 Combat Direction Central)
paul
24 Mar
24 Mar
10:12 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Quothe ben franchuk, from writings of Wed, Mar 24, 2004 at 08:40:41PM -0700:
BYW Somebody said building a SAGE replica. Is that
even unclassified
from the US military?
Surely someone in Russia or someplace must have already built a
replica or at least have the plans, so, if information about a that
can somehow be obtained, then it will matter not if the SAGE is still
classified. :-)
--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved | My VAX | an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
www.rddavis.org | runs VMS & | her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
410-744-4900 | doesn't crash!| beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
10:15 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Wed, 2004-03-24 at 19:35, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Jay West wrote:
Right! It also has to require that you either move your clothes dryer
everytime you use it, or hire a certified electrician to wire in a
special 220 wall plug.
Better yet, give it a German power plug, just to make it that much more
difficult to use in the US.
...and even though it's just a replica, it should still require 4 burly
men to move it. That's what makes the "experience" authentic. Right?
If we build one a month and sell them on ebay
under the title "EXTREMELY
RARE", each one that sells, one of us can retire.
Don't forget to have all of the developers sign the inside of the case! 
25 Mar
25 Mar
9:15 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
I'd love to see a KDF-9, but a LEO III is probably more realistic
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Ernest wrote:
On Wed, 2004-03-24 at 17:45, ben franchuk wrote:
--
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
David V. Corbin wrote:
My vote is for a metal box, with lots of blinken lights all over it, and
a few non-sensically cryptic words and stripes silk screened artfully
under specific areas and light groupings. Oh, and add a few toggle or
paddle switches that probably don't actually do anything. Paint it a sky
blue or chartreuse green, with orange or purple stripes, and it would be
perfect. I don't care if it computes or not. I just like flippin
switches and blinken lights. Weird paint schemes are good, also, and the
box should use massive amounts of electricity and heat the entire house
all by itself. We need more replica's like THAT.
Actually there are a number of us interested in
Low power Schottky versions
of of CPUs <grin>
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
We have 1 vote for a VAX.
I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit homebrew CPU.
(Grumble all the good names have been taken) 
3 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Walked away from a fully functional and still warm KDF6 I could have taken
(but for space limitations), with nothing but a tape reader assy, about 30
years back- always regretted it!
DaveB, NZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Merle K. Peirce" <at258(a)osfn.org>
To: <ernest(a)apple2clones.com>om>; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 3:15 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Replica's
My vote is for a metal box, with lots of blinken lights all over it, and
a few non-sensically cryptic words and stripes silk screened artfully
under specific areas and light groupings. Oh, and add a few toggle or
paddle switches that probably don't actually do anything. Paint it a sky
blue or chartreuse green, with orange or purple stripes, and it would be
perfect. I don't care if it computes or not. I just like flippin
switches and blinken lights. Weird paint schemes are good, also, and the
box should use massive amounts of electricity and heat the entire house
all by itself. We need more replica's like THAT.
--
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
I'd love to see a KDF-9, but a LEO III is probably
more realistic
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Ernest wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-03-24 at 17:45, ben franchuk wrote:
> > David V. Corbin wrote:
> > > Actually there are a number of us interested in Low power Schottky
versions
of of CPUs
<grin>
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
We have 1 vote for a VAX.
I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit homebrew CPU.
(Grumble all the good names have been taken)
24 Mar
24 Mar
8:33 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
My vote would have to go for either an '11 or a Vax (since there are already
solutions for an '8 which is my primary interest....)
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben franchuk
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 8:45 PM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Computer Replica's
>>
>> David V. Corbin wrote:
>> > Actually there are a number of us interested in Low power
>> Schottky
>> > versions of of CPUs <grin>
>>
>> So lets have your vote for what replica's of old computers
>> that need to reconstructed at a functional level --
>> blinking lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same
>> hardware level.
>>
>> We have 1 vote for a VAX.
>> I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit homebrew CPU.
>> (Grumble all the good names have been taken) Ben.
>>
>>
8:36 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old
computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
We have 1 vote for a VAX.
I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit homebrew CPU.
(Grumble all the good names have been taken)
Ben.
I don't see much need for a VAX personally, what I'd like to see most is a
PDP-10 capable of running TOPS-10 and TOPS-20. A PDP-11 with 22-bit
addressing would be nice as well.
Zane
10:38 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Wednesday 24 March 2004 20:45, ben franchuk wrote:
David V. Corbin wrote:
I'd second Zane's vote for a PDP-10, and an S/360 / S/370 might be nice,
but I think a 7094 would be a bit cooler.. er... more fun. Hmm, those
are both 36-bit machines.
A DG Nova replica might be interesting, but what might be even better is
a CDC 6600. Ooh, that would be fun. Hey Tom, any chance of getting
enough specs off that operators console you've got to build a new one?
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Actually there are a number of us interested in
Low power Schottky
versions of of CPUs <grin>
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
25 Mar
25 Mar
1:10 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
I'd second Zane's vote for a PDP-10, and an
S/360 / S/370 might be nice,
but I think a 7094 would be a bit cooler.. er... more fun. Hmm, those
are both 36-bit machines.
Since you mention the 36-bit aspect, I'd almost suggested the
Honeywell DPS-8, but decided against it do to the lack available
software (there is a HUGE difference between the software *existing*
and being available). Though the thought of actually being able to
boot GCOS-8 at home is a bit frightening :^)
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
1:36 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Zane H. Healy wrote:
Since you mention the 36-bit aspect, I'd almost
suggested the
Honeywell DPS-8, but decided against it do to the lack available
software (there is a HUGE difference between the software *existing*
and being available). Though the thought of actually being able to
boot GCOS-8 at home is a bit frightening :^)
Stay tuned for interesting announcements in the coming months ;-)
Y'all might also look at my site : www.citem.org/Vmachines its a bit
rough at the moment, the forums are broken but it gives some flavor to
what I am doing.
We are lobbying very hard here in Grenoble to get these projects
properly funded We have a student project starting next month and he
will be doing an 1130 implementation.
PS My current favorites are : Atlas, B500 and GE 645 (not necessarily in
that order)
A big problem is test routines. They seem to to have been preserved by
anyone. So if anyone comes across these for ANY machine I'd appreciate
you preserving and sharing them.
-- Hans
Zane
1:18 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
ben franchuk wrote, in part:
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old
computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
I'd actually toyed with the idea of building a new PDP-12 - I certainly
haven't found an available original yet <g!> - but then started thinking
along different lines: design and build a basic processor out of
1970s-level TTL, give it a basic I/O bus and a TTY interface, put the
appropriate blinkenlights and switches on it, put it in an appropriately
labeled and painted case, print up an appropriate amount of documentation
to go with it, then put it on eBay saying it's a rare prototype of the
long-lost DEC PDP-13 and see who would bite. :)
Ah, if I only had more spare time and less scruples... :) :)
-O.-
8:27 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
>>>> "ben" == ben franchuk
<bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> writes:
ben> David V. Corbin wrote:
> Actually there are a number of us interested in
Low power Schottky
> versions of of CPUs <grin>
ben> So lets have your vote for what replica's of old computers that
ben> need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking lights,
ben> mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware level.
ben> We have 1 vote for a VAX. I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit
ben> homebrew CPU. (Grumble all the good names have been taken) Ben.
If you want a good challenge, how about a CDC 6600? That's a lovely
architecture...
paul
1:26 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:27:16 -0500
Paul Koning <pkoning(a)equallogic.com> wrote:
If you want a good challenge, how about a CDC 6600?
That's a lovely
architecture...
Why build a replica when you can have The Real Thing:
http://www.cray-cyber.org/
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
2:08 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
>>>> "Jochen" == Jochen Kunz
<jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> writes:
Jochen> On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:27:16 -0500 Paul Koning
Jochen> <pkoning(a)equallogic.com> wrote:
> If you want a good challenge, how about a CDC
6600? That's a
> lovely architecture...
Jochen> Why build a replica when you can have The
Real Thing:
Jochen> http://www.cray-cyber.org/ --
Sure, that's neat. But I don't have it -- John Z does...
People have built Cyber replicas out of FPGAs; it doesn't seem all
that hard. After all, it's a nice clean RISC machine (from before the
time when that term was created).
Then there's http://members.iinet.net.au/~tom-hunter/, but that's a
software emulator...
paul
3:50 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:08:31 -0500
Paul Koning <pkoning(a)equallogic.com> wrote:
Jochen> Why build a replica when you can have The
Real Thing:
Jochen> http://www.cray-cyber.org/ --
Sure, that's neat. But I don't have it -- John Z does...
You can log into
it via the Internet.
Be glad you don't own this machine, 400 V three phase power and 130 A
start up current...
People have built Cyber replicas out of FPGAs; it
doesn't seem all
that hard.
There is the book "Design of a Computer, The Control Data
6600". It
states somewhere that the machine was build out of 400.000 transistors.
So it seems quite possible to reimplement it in FPGAs.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
3:03 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Thursday 25 March 2004 14:26, Jochen Kunz wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:27:16 -0500
Paul Koning <pkoning(a)equallogic.com> wrote:
Because I don't get to play with the operators' console!!
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
If you want a good challenge, how about a CDC
6600? That's a
lovely architecture...
Why build a replica when you can have The Real Thing:
http://www.cray-cyber.org/ 
9:24 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
David V. Corbin wrote:
Digital Group. Cards for 4 different processors, runs (how many?)
different OS's, digital tape or floppy storage (and of course, I'd
want SCSI before long :-) )
CP/M, eventually.
This would be a pretty flexible system, if fully configured.
--
- Mark
210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967
Actually there are a number of us interested in
Low power Schottky versions
of of CPUs <grin>
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level. 
1:02 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, ben franchuk wrote:
We have 1 vote for a VAX.
I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit homebrew CPU.
(Grumble all the good names have been taken)
Yeah, a "New VAX" (VAX NT
? :) would be fun to have.
Did anyone ever try to implement something like that in a
Transmeta Crusoe chip?
--f
6:03 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, ben franchuk wrote:
There was a rumour that sombody is working on it. But that was already
few years ago ...
What about a new version of the PERQ ?
Nice u-programmable, so the people could even have fun designing
their own ISA ...
cheers
We have 1 vote for a VAX.
I give 1 vote for a unamed 10/20 bit homebrew CPU.
(Grumble all the good names have been taken)
Yeah, a "New VAX" (VAX NT ? :) would be fun to have.
Did anyone ever try to implement something like that in a
Transmeta Crusoe chip? 
28 Mar
28 Mar
2:06 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Wed, 2004-03-24 at 17:45, ben franchuk wrote:
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old
computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
Univac 1108 anyone (a nice round 48-bits)?
--
TTFN - Guy
3:20 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
On Wed, 2004-03-24 at 17:45, ben franchuk wrote:
@RUN,/N QUESTION,1010/EMANUEL,PRO
@FOR,S
1 FORMAT(1H0, 'YOU HAVE ANY SOFTWARE FOR IT ?')
WRITE(6,1)
END
@XQT
@PASSWORD SECRET
@FIN
So lets have your vote for what replica's of
old computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
Univac 1108 anyone (a nice round 48-bits)?
11:18 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Sun, 2004-03-28 at 01:20, emanuel stiebler wrote:
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
OK, how about an IBM 1130? The mechanicals shouldn't be hard (basically
a desk with a terminal embedded in it). There should be some software.
And oh yea, it uses a cartridge pack drive (which I think is compatible
with the DEC RK05 and one of the HP drives).
--
TTFN - Guy
Univac 1108 anyone (a nice round 48-bits)?
@RUN,/N QUESTION,1010/EMANUEL,PRO
@FOR,S
1 FORMAT(1H0, 'YOU HAVE ANY SOFTWARE FOR IT ?')
WRITE(6,1)
END
@XQT
@PASSWORD SECRET
@FIN
1:04 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
Guy Sotomayor wrote:
OK, how about an IBM 1130? The mechanicals
shouldn't be hard (basically
a desk with a terminal embedded in it). There should be some software.
And oh yea, it uses a cartridge pack drive (which I think is compatible
with the DEC RK05 and one of the HP drives).
Lets not forget the terminal used a ODD character set. I don't think that
Selectric Ball is easy to come by. Years ago I had the console
typewriter of a IBM1130 hoping to use it as a printer, but I distroyed
it by running open loop rather than closed loop. Very sensitive timing
for CR's and LF's.
And No I don't have it any more, since I moved to many times.
Ben.
2:14 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replica's
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, emanuel stiebler wrote:
He does now (assuming that he has the FORTRAN compiler)
But it might be nice to get together some fancier stuff.
Univac 1108
anyone (a nice round 48-bits)?
@RUN,/N QUESTION,1010/EMANUEL,PRO
@FOR,S
1 FORMAT(1H0, 'YOU HAVE ANY SOFTWARE FOR IT ?')
WRITE(6,1)
END
@XQT
@PASSWORD SECRET
@FIN
30 Mar
30 Mar
2:46 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
(it's replicas not replica's)
So lets have your vote for what replica's of old
computers
that need to reconstructed at a functional level -- blinking
lights, mechanical I/O but it need not be the same hardware
level.
Other than reminiscing about obscure machines we personally love,
if you wanted to actuallyt make/sell a bunch to amortize
cost, I'd think something more common like a PDP-8 would be a better
choice.
It's got blinkenlights. It's desktop(ish). It's got
software. It's got a decidedly non-modern architecture
(NOTE1). There's plenty of software. It has familiarity on
it's side. There's user docs, hardware docs, original panels
to make copies of.
It would need only two peripherals to be interesting/useful
(unlike a 360/90!) -- tape and console. Very small installations
were common and useful: "teletype" (keyboard, paper, tape),
dectape/linctape.
I distinctly recall how exciting it was to use a Nova 1200,
linctape and silent 700 on a rollaround cart in 1974. I know the
'8 equivelents were far more common and had more software.
Lots of "reproductions" are disappointing if all of the
physicality isn't right, to me anyways. A PDP-8 that was 2"
thick and hung on the wall just wouldn't cut it. I know it
sounds pedantic but clearly, we're talking about an aesthetic
experience, if you just wanted to run the software an emulator
is enough. WE WANT HARDWARE!
tomj
NOTE 1: I'm fascinated with bizarre and ancient architectures
too, but let's get real, most of the ancient ones don't do
character I/O, even, so coding up even the old STAR-TREK would
be a major undertaking on a drum machine.
8:09 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 12:46:29PM -0800, Tom Jennings wrote:
Lots of "reproductions" are disappointing if
all of the
physicality isn't right, to me anyways. A PDP-8 that was 2"
thick and hung on the wall just wouldn't cut it. I know it
sounds pedantic but clearly, we're talking about an aesthetic
experience, if you just wanted to run the software an emulator
is enough. WE WANT HARDWARE!
Hey! I happen to like my SBC-6120... I'll be hanging it on the wall
as soon as I can fashion a frame for it. For now, it sits next to
my desk.
You could always mount it in a rack (with a lot of empty space behind
it ;-)
Speaking of which, since the SBC-6120 is 2/3 size, I've been thinking
what it would take to put dual 5.25" floppies in an undersized "rack".
I've already been thinking about how to use some of the 36 I/O pins on
the IOB-6120 to talk to a real RX01/RX02 drive... this would be an
extension of that.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Mar-2004 02:01 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -86.8 F (-66.0 C) Windchill -128.3 F (-89.09 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 8.6 kts Grid 057 Barometer 673.9 mb (10856. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
31 Mar
31 Mar
12:55 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Tuesday 30 March 2004 15:46, Tom Jennings wrote:
Other than reminiscing about obscure machines we
personally love,
if you wanted to actuallyt make/sell a bunch to amortize
cost, I'd think something more common like a PDP-8 would be a better
choice.
What would be fun about selling it???
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
2:30 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
Other than reminiscing about obscure machines we
personally love, if you
wanted to actuallyt make/sell a bunch to amortize cost, I'd think
something more common like a PDP-8 would be a better choice.
http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=PDP-8
If someone wants to quote me a good price I'll make a functional version
for them ;)
(The one shown is just a 3D facade...)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
8:29 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Wednesday 31 March 2004 03:30, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
Wow, that's f*cking amazing! Good job!
If I had a few spare dollars laying around, I'd consider your offer. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Other than reminiscing about obscure machines we
personally love,
if you wanted to actuallyt make/sell a bunch to amortize cost, I'd
think something more common like a PDP-8 would be a better choice.
http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=PDP-8
If someone wants to quote me a good price I'll make a functional
version for them ;)
(The one shown is just a 3D facade...) 
11:25 a.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 12:30 AM, Vintage Computer Festival
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, Tom Jennings wrote:
look a cargo cult computer :^)
Other than reminiscing about obscure machines we
personally love, if
you
wanted to actuallyt make/sell a bunch to amortize cost, I'd think
something more common like a PDP-8 would be a better choice.
http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=PDP-8
2:06 p.m.
New subject: Computer Replicas
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, ben franchuk wrote:
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Right. A little cash can fix that.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
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If someone wants to quote me a good price
I'll make a functional version
for them ;)
(The one shown is just a 3D facade...)
A very nice static display, but still no blinking lights and fan noise. :)
23 Mar
23 Mar
4:02 p.m.
>>>> "ben" == ben franchuk
<bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> writes:
ben> Paul Koning wrote:
> Meanwhile, something like AXE is your best bet to
catch unexpected
> instruction interactions. It was used because it provides FAR
> better coverage than conventional CPU diagnostics. Not alone, of
> course -- you still want to pass regular diagnostics, and run all
> the applications you can think of. And the microcode still has to
> be carefully designed and coded. But AXE adds yet another level
> of assurance to the implementation.
ben> Forget the axe! Build simpler computers that work!
I don't think there ever has been a computer simple enough that you
could analyze its state space exhaustively. So the answer is a
combination of careful design and careful testing. AXE is a tool for
the latter.
By the way, most computers do work. There have been some spectacular
exceptions lately, but those ARE exceptions.
ben> I don't still don't trust it! CPU diagnostics needs to be
ben> designed into the CPU in the design not added later. But CPU's
ben> nowdays are designed for speed not long life. Also what happens
ben> when AXE or any other test finds a FAULT. Crash the system or
ben> what?
AXE (as used at DEC) is an implementation verification tool, used as
part of the verification testing of a new implementation of a given
processor architecture (VAX or Alpha). It isn't run in the field, so
the question isn't meaningful. I'd assume that a failure would stop
the system under test and spit out lots of details about CPU state,
but I've never been close enough to be sure.
None of this has anything to do with speed, long life, etc. -- it's
just looking for design errors.
CT3 (the CDC 6600 analog) is a field service tool, and it spits out
details about what's wrong when it finds something wrong. At that
point the tech would have to start swapping modules, check wiring for
loose cables, etc. But that's an earlier generation system where
you'd expect CPU malfunctions in the field due to wear and tear.
paul
8:08 a.m.
>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini
<arcarlini(a)iee.org> writes:
Antonio> I never had access to AXE, but as I understand it, it would
Antonio> generate semi-random sequences of instructions and then
Antonio> execute them. Then it would compare the actual results with
Antonio> known good results. I don't know the details of how it would
Antonio> determine "known good results" given that the sequence was
Antonio> semi-random.
I assume the answer is "by running the random instructions in a
simulation of what the SRM says".
Incidentally, it turns out this is not a new technique. CDC had one
(or two?) random instruction generator diagnostics for the 6600
supercomputer, back in the mid to late 1960s. Those were actually
used in the field, which makes sense given that those machines had
CPUs built out of hundreds of small (discrete transistor) modules all
wired together by twisted pair wire.
paul
19 Mar
19 Mar
8:25 p.m.
My VARM is
"Revision 6.1" and is not obviously marked with an
edition number.
1982-05-20, right? The early VARMs, the EK-VAXAR-RM ones, are lovely:
100% pure ASCII,
except for boldface section headers the book is line printer output.
Well, and chapter headings and title page.
Oh, and one trivium(?) I noticed while thumbing through it just now:
the page that ought to be page 3-16 has a header that's a duplicate of
page 3-15's; and page 3-17 is not "5-May-80 -- Rev 7 Page 3-17" but
rather "5-MAY-80 -- REV 7 PAGE 3-17" (the former matches pages in the
immediate vicinity and in general style matches most of the book,
though much (all?) of Chapter 10 uses "March" instead of "Mar").
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