6 Feb
2015
6 Feb
'15
5:42 a.m.
From: Brent Hilpert
> Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output of the
xtal oscillator E15
> from inverter input pin E4.4.
Sigh, the crystal output is dead as a doornail. Total flat-line. Guess I'm
going to have to find a new one...
I actually think there's an open in there, because the input to the buffer
inverter stays at +2V, whether the crystal is connected or not. If there was
some sort of internal short in the crystal taking its output to ground, I'd
have expected it to pull the inverter's input down.
TP4 looks to be an 'input' test point, rather
than an output. The
pull-down resistor value (150 or 180 ohms) has been selected such that
it is low enough to allow enough current to flow through the tri-state
control input E4.1 to pull it low normally, but high enough to allow
one to connect TP4 high, to enter tri-state
Ah, got it. (I tended to assume test points were outputs, but I need to
remember that they may be inputs.)
What the point of going to tri-state is, is not clear,
considering that
W1 is there for an external clock. A conjecture is there may have been
some external test fixture that tri-stated it for some sort of
synchronous single-step clocking.
Yeah, but couldn't they have lifted the W1 jumper, and fed their test clock in
that way? Eh, not important.
Could also check the V reading on the open E4.4 input.
See above - +2V is a floating TTL input, ISTR?
From: Holm Tiffe
Hmm, may be since his hints are standard debugging
technique and you
aren't really familiar with debugging??
I cheerfully admit to being primarily a software person. But I have been
debugging broken hardware off and on for 30+ years - although not as a
principal occupation, of course. I think it's more just that my mind does not
do hardware intuitively (the more-so, the further one gets from the ideal -
aka digital at the design level - to real hardware) - I have to think about
it.
You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL
inputs are reading High
w/o any pullup.
That's why all those boards use pullups on unused inputs that need to be 1,
right? :-) But you're probably correct for a quick test.
Noel
6 Feb
6 Feb
3:34 p.m.
On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Does it have to be exactly 13MHz for the system to function correctly? I
have some Fox brand 13.824MHz oscillators in my parts cabinets that were
leftovers from something back in the mid 90s (probably modem R&D).
From: Brent
Hilpert
> Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output
of the xtal oscillator E15
> from inverter input pin E4.4.
Sigh, the crystal output is dead as a doornail. Total flat-line. Guess I'm
going to have to find a new one... 
7 Feb
7 Feb
2:58 a.m.
2015-02-07 0:34 GMT+01:00 Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net>:
Does it have to be exactly 13MHz for the system to function correctly? I
have some Fox brand 13.824MHz oscillators in my parts cabinets that were
leftovers from something back in the mid 90s (probably modem R&D).
Once upon a time (> 20 years ago) I tried different clock oscillators on
my M8186 / KDF11-A board. I was able to run RT-11 when using up to 18 MHz
oscillators. As far as I remember it wouldn't boot over 18 MHz. I guess
that it ran a bit hotter though.
11:30 a.m.
Noel Chiappa wrote:
There is nothing wrong with your brain :-)
You aren't familiar with that kind of mater, that's all.
Noel, I gave you a hint for the debugging of that circuit, not for
constructing reliable electronics with TTL circuits.
May be there is a difference?
Your answer is exactly what I've expect from one that don't really know
what he is exactly doing inside that electronics.
Take a look to the internal circuit of an 7400, you will find a Transistor
with multible emitters at the input. Inputs are drawing current if you
connect them to GND and excatly NONE if you connect them to VCC.
So if you still want to use smileys while answering me, tell me what do you
think that is happening inside the circuit if you connect the 5V to the
inputs..
and not it is time for me to smile: :-))
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
From: Brent
Hilpert
> Well, try removing W1 to isolate the output
of the xtal oscillator E15
> from inverter input pin E4.4.
Sigh, the crystal output is dead as a doornail. Total flat-line. Guess I'm
going to have to find a new one...
I actually think there's an open in there, because the input to the buffer
inverter stays at +2V, whether the crystal is connected or not. If there was
some sort of internal short in the crystal taking its output to ground, I'd
have expected it to pull the inverter's input down.
TP4 looks to be an 'input' test point,
rather than an output. The
pull-down resistor value (150 or 180 ohms) has been selected such that
it is low enough to allow enough current to flow through the tri-state
control input E4.1 to pull it low normally, but high enough to allow
one to connect TP4 high, to enter tri-state
Ah, got it. (I tended to assume test points were outputs, but I need to
remember that they may be inputs.)
What the point of going to tri-state is, is not
clear, considering that
W1 is there for an external clock. A conjecture is there may have been
some external test fixture that tri-stated it for some sort of
synchronous single-step clocking.
Yeah, but couldn't they have lifted the W1 jumper, and fed their test clock in
that way? Eh, not important.
Could also check the V reading on the open E4.4
input.
See above - +2V is a floating TTL input, ISTR?
From: Holm Tiffe
Hmm, may be since his hints are standard
debugging technique and you
aren't really familiar with debugging??
I cheerfully admit to being primarily a software person. But I have been
debugging broken hardware off and on for 30+ years - although not as a
principal occupation, of course. I think it's more just that my mind does not
do hardware intuitively (the more-so, the further one gets from the ideal -
aka digital at the design level - to real hardware) - I have to think about
it. You don't ned no pullup for +5. All open TTL
inputs are reading High
w/o any pullup.
That's why all those boards use pullups on unused inputs that need to be 1,
right? :-) But you're probably correct for a quick test.
Noel
3606
days inactive
3607
days old
3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
holm＠freibergnet.de -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
mattislind＠gmail.com -
tothwolf＠concentric.net