9 Jul
2014
9 Jul
'14
5:32 a.m.
On 2014-07-09 02:22, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 14:22:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: best dos machine
Message-ID: <20140708142144.O37762 at shell.lmi.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
(IBM never called it "motherboard" due to use of the word "mother..."
<snip> Fixed drive (IBM didn't called it a "hard" drive)
On Tue, 8 Jul 2014, A. P. Garcia wrote:
and don't forget to use our favorite numbering
system, hexidecimal, because ibm was too prudent to call it sexadecimal...
"FIXED" disk?? "FIXED" In a veterinary context??!?
No - "Fixed" as opposed to "Removable"
Remember big-boy machines had disk packs (Winchesters, etc) that you
swapped in and out.
In DEC speak: RK05s, RP0x and so forth.
And btw: the IBM XT originally came with 5.25" floppies the fixed hard
drive came later.
Dave.
9 Jul
9 Jul
6:57 a.m.
On 2014-07-09 9:32 AM, dave at mitton.com wrote:
On 2014-07-09 02:22, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
The XT or IBM 5160 was announced and shipped with a fixed disk right
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 14:22:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: best dos machine
Message-ID: <20140708142144.O37762 at shell.lmi.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
(IBM never called it "motherboard" due to use of the word "mother..."
<snip> Fixed drive (IBM didn't called it a "hard" drive)
On
Tue, 8 Jul 2014, A. P. Garcia wrote:
and don't forget to use our favorite
numbering system, hexidecimal, because ibm was too prudent to call it sexadecimal...
"FIXED" disk?? "FIXED" In a veterinary context??!?
No - "Fixed" as opposed to "Removable"
Remember big-boy machines had disk packs (Winchesters, etc) that you
swapped in and out.
In DEC speak: RK05s, RP0x and so forth.
And btw: the IBM XT originally came with 5.25" floppies the fixed hard
drive came later.
Dave.
from the beginning, however its immediate predecessor
the 5150 was a
floppy based machine.
The the "Winchester" was first applied the IBM 3340 disk unit, its
design point was to have two 30 MB spindles in each unit or 30-30 so
calling it "Winchester" was a natural since 30-30 is a calibre of the
famous Winchester rifle. This disk unit had removable packs that where
sealed and contained the heads, access arm and the platters. when
mounted in the drive the spindle coupled with the motor in the disk unit
and a door opened on the back to allow the access arm to be coupled with
the voice coil actuator. The disk packs also had 2 heads per surface to
allow for faster data access since the full stroke of the arm was only
half the width of the platter and was one of the first disks drives
where the heads where allowed to land on the surface.
Paul.
2:29 p.m.
And btw: the
IBM XT originally came with 5.25" floppies the fixed hard
drive came later.
Dave.
The XT or IBM 5160 was announced and shipped with a fixed disk right
from the beginning, however its immediate predecessor the 5150 was a
floppy based machine. 
3:26 p.m.
> > And btw: the IBM XT originally came with
5.25" floppies the fixed hard
> > drive came later.
> The XT or IBM 5160 was announced and shipped with a fixed disk right
> from the beginning, however its immediate predecessor the 5150 was a
> floppy based machine.
On Wed, 9 Jul 2014, Tony Duell wrote:
I beleive it was possible to order a 5160 with 2
floppy drives and no
fixed disk.
I know that the first XT had a hard disk. I don't think that it was
possible to order one without hard disk for at least a few more months.
The earliest 5150 BIOSes did not support extension
ROMs, and thus could
not driectly boot from a fixed disk IIRC> But AFAIK all 5150s could be
interfaces to te fixed disk which was used after booting from floppy (and
loading drivers that way). later 5150s supported BIOS extension ROMs and
could boot from the 5160 contorller in the obvious way. The PSU was a bit
marginal, though.
63.5W? 65W?
It's probably plenty for a modern laptop drive. But, it sure wasn't up
for a ST-4096! (80M)
And the XT, with its 135? W supply wasn't happy with two ST-4096s.
3:52 p.m.
On 2014-07-09 7:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Since the ST-4096 is a full height 5.25 disk drive I would think you
would have a hard time getting two of them into an XT unless you took
out the floppy drives. I seem to remember the XTs came out with 10 and
20MB half high Seagates. The AT started shipping with a 40MB full high
Seagate after they stopped shipping disastrous CMI disk drives. There
was room in an AT case for two full high drives.
Paul.
>> And
btw: the IBM XT originally came with 5.25" floppies the fixed hard
>> drive came later.
> The XT or IBM 5160 was announced and shipped with a fixed disk right
> from the beginning, however its immediate predecessor the 5150 was a
> floppy based machine.
On Wed, 9 Jul 2014, Tony Duell wrote:
I beleive it was possible to order a 5160 with 2
floppy drives and no
fixed disk.
I know that the first XT had a hard disk. I don't think that it
was
possible to order one without hard disk for at least a few more months.
The earliest 5150 BIOSes did not support
extension ROMs, and thus could
not driectly boot from a fixed disk IIRC> But AFAIK all 5150s could be
interfaces to te fixed disk which was used after booting from floppy (and
loading drivers that way). later 5150s supported BIOS extension ROMs and
could boot from the 5160 contorller in the obvious way. The PSU was a bit
marginal, though.
63.5W? 65W?
It's probably plenty for a modern laptop drive. But, it sure wasn't up
for a ST-4096! (80M)
And the XT, with its 135? W supply wasn't happy with two ST-4096s.
11:55 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com> wrote:
Since the ST-4096 is a full height 5.25 disk drive I
would think you would
have a hard time getting two of them into an XT unless you took out the
floppy drives.
Like the original PC, the XT could accommodate two full-height 5.25-inch
drives. One floppy drive and one ST4096 would fit just fine.
10 Jul
10 Jul
4:27 a.m.
On 2014-07-10 3:55 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Paul Berger
<phb.hfx at gmail.com> wrote:
Yes I am aware of
that however, in the post I was replying to, the
writer specifically said two.
Paul.
Since the ST-4096 is a full height 5.25 disk
drive I would think you would
have a hard time getting two of them into an XT unless you took out the
floppy drives.
Like the original PC, the XT could accommodate two full-height 5.25-inch
drives. One floppy drive and one ST4096 would fit just fine.
2:12 p.m.
Since the ST-4096 is a full height 5.25 disk drive I
would think you
would have a hard time getting two of them into an XT unless you took
I bought a second hand XT some years ago that was _totally_ original IBM. No
clone parts at all. And it had 2 full-height 5.25" floppy drives and 2
genuine ST412 hard drives. Or course it had the expanisn unit. The 2
floppies were in the system unit, the expansion unit cotnained the hard
drives and their controller..
The IBM PC floppy controller board supported 4 drives, 2 to be conencted
to the DC37 socket o nthe brakcet. Where were you supposed to put those
drives? The obvious answer is in the expansion unit, I have never seen
the approrpatie cable to link them up, though (well, as a commerical/IBM
product).
out the floppy drives. I seem to remember the XTs
came out with 10 and
20MB half high Seagates. The AT started shipping with a 40MB full high
Seagate after they stopped shipping disastrous CMI disk drives. There
was room in an AT case for two full high drives.
Actually, the AT case can take 2 full-height units and a half-height
(floppy) drive). The left bay is totally internam, and is full height.
The right pbay has effectively 3 half-height positions, the top 2 of
whcih have external access. So you can put a floppy drive in the top
posiiton and a full-height hard drive under it.
-tony
11 Jul
11 Jul
4:38 a.m.
On 10 July 2014 23:12, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Actually, the AT case can take 2 full-height units and
a half-height
(floppy) drive). The left bay is totally internam, and is full height.
The right pbay has effectively 3 half-height positions, the top 2 of
whcih have external access. So you can put a floppy drive in the top
posiiton and a full-height hard drive under it.
Yes -- I believe that back in the day (late 1980s) I did just that.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
9 Jul
9 Jul
8:15 a.m.
Well, I can tell you my usual MS-DOS setup--and this is replicated many
times in the hardware that I have.
I first install Win98SE or ME (with command-line shutdown patch). This
gives me an MS-DOS 7.1 base and FAT32 support. I modify the MSDOS.SYS
file to boot into "plain DOS" mode, rather than GUI mode--I can get to
the Windows GUI with the "WIN" command. I also install DOSLFN to give
me long-filename support in non-GUI mode.
Next, I install Japheth's HXDOS DPMI server with Win32 support. This
allows me to run later compilers and assemblers that require a WIN32
API. It also lets me compile and run console WIN32 programs.
If it's a later system with more than a GB of memory, I'll install the
Win98 "unofficial service Pack 2" and dedicate a large part of the extra
memory to a RAMDisk and assign it as the temporary drive for Windows.
That gives me a system that runs MS-DOS programs, allows for
unobstructed access to low-level system facilities (e.g. I/O ports) and
gives me the option of running Windows if I need to.
If the machine can run them, I'll also install Windows XP and Linux or
BSD in multiboot mode.
On larger, later systems, where I don't need direct hardware access,
I'll run both VirtualBox and DOSEMU and WINE under Linux, which allows
me to run pretty much whatever I want.
That's a setup that I use nearly every day--and have been for years to
do real, productive work.
I am not interested in running vintage games.
--Chuck
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days inactive
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dave＠mitton.com -
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