20 Mar
2007
20 Mar
'07
1:18 p.m.
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008
system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches )
seem so attractive ?
It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer...
So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ?
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable,
and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor
program) that expensive ?
Jos
20 Mar
20 Mar
3:42 p.m.
Same reason we put lights on holiday decorations, or on road signs, or
anything else we want to attract attention to.
Using light as a way of attracting attention goes back a long long time.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos Dreesen
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:19 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Why blinkenlights ?
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my
coming i8008 system : what is it that makes blinkenlights
(i.e. leds and switches ) seem so attractive ?
It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer...
So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ?
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly
more usable, and would have cost nothing more. Or were early
eproms (for the monitor
program) that expensive ?
Jos
3:44 p.m.
Jos wrote...
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on
my coming i8008
system
Well, we do expect a link to pictures & stuff!
: what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and
switches ) seem so
attractive ?
Curb appeal :) But seriously, see below....
It must be about the worst possible way to interact
with a computer...
Oh I respectfully disagree. Depending on what you are doing, a
front panel
can be the best way to interact. If you're writing in assembly and debugging
your program it's eminently useful to see visually what is in the registers.
Yes, you can do this with an online debugging tool, but I myself find it
easier to just look at the lights. I mean, there is a reason they were
called "PROGRAMMERS panels".
So why is it then that almost all early micros had
them ?
Maybe because it is one of the best possible ways to interact with the
computer ;)
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is
clearly more usable, and
would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor
program) that expensive ?
I dunno. Didn't the discrete toggle or paddle
switches and lights cost a lot
more than a prefab keypad and LED display? And as programmer front panels
faded, wasn't that about the same time people were really moving towards
higher level languages and multiuser stuff rather than single machine
language programs (in general)? I don't know, just conjecturing!
Jay
3:57 p.m.
Jay has a point, with the lights it is easier to visually see things like a
stuck bit, but the tradeoff is that things like bootstraps are just painful
to enter.
Did anyone ever do a machine with both? That would be really great if you
could examine the bits using the keypad.
IMO, lights=good, switches=bad (especially when they break on old equipment
and you have to find replacements, which is a major undertaking depending on
the machine)
[troll]Unless you're using an HP21xx machine, in which case you just get
some of those DIY switches from Radio Shack[/troll]
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:44 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Why blinkenlights ?
Jos wrote...
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put
on my
coming i8008
system
Well, we do expect a link to
pictures & stuff!
: what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds
and
switches ) seem so
attractive ?
Curb appeal :) But seriously,
see below....
It must be about the worst possible way to
interact with a
computer...
Oh I respectfully disagree. Depending on what you are doing,
a front panel can be the best way to interact. If you're
writing in assembly and debugging your program it's eminently
useful to see visually what is in the registers.
Yes, you can do this with an online debugging tool, but I
myself find it easier to just look at the lights. I mean,
there is a reason they were called "PROGRAMMERS panels".
So why is it then that almost all early micros
had them ?
Maybe because it is one of the best possible ways to interact
with the computer ;)
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is
clearly
more usable,
and would have cost nothing more. Or were early
eproms (for the
monitor
program) that expensive ?
I dunno. Didn't the discrete toggle or paddle
switches and
lights cost a lot more than a prefab keypad and LED display?
And as programmer front panels faded, wasn't that about the
same time people were really moving towards higher level
languages and multiuser stuff rather than single machine
language programs (in general)? I don't know, just conjecturing!
Jay
21 Mar
21 Mar
12:05 p.m.
Julian Wolfe wrote:
IMO, lights=good, switches=bad (especially when they
break on old equipment
and you have to find replacements, which is a major undertaking depending on
the machine)
Switches can be extremely handy if you need to write a bootloader to
boot from a tape on which the bootblocks have gotten messed up. There
are other situations, of course, but that's the only one I've ever had
to deal with in an emergency.
Peace... Sridhar
20 Mar
20 Mar
3:46 p.m.
On Mar 20, 2007, at 4:18 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote:
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on
my coming
i8008 system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and
switches ) seem so attractive ?
It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer...
Uhh...they're *easy*.
So why is it then that almost all early micros had
them ?
Debugging. I've debugged a WHOLE LOT of code on my Imsai's front
panel in the mid-1980s. Nothing is simpler (IMO) as debugging via a
front panel
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is
clearly more
usable, and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for
the monitor program) that expensive ?
Well, there were no such things as EPROMs (or chips at all, for
that matter) on the earliest lights-and-switches machines. I think
single-stepping and debugging of very low-level stuff is much easier
with a lights-and-switches front panel. Numeric displays are nice,
but I find many keypad interfaces to be very cumbersome. The H-8
keypad is probably one of the nicest I've seen (it seems to make the
most sense anyway) but even it isn't as clear and unambiguous as "set
the switches to the address you want, and press 'load address'".
For today, though...blinking lights are Just Plain Cool.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
21 Mar
21 Mar
12:03 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
Well, there were no such things as EPROMs (or chips
at all, for that
matter) on the earliest lights-and-switches machines. I think
single-stepping and debugging of very low-level stuff is much easier
with a lights-and-switches front panel. Numeric displays are nice, but
I find many keypad interfaces to be very cumbersome. The H-8 keypad is
probably one of the nicest I've seen (it seems to make the most sense
anyway) but even it isn't as clear and unambiguous as "set the switches
to the address you want, and press 'load address'".
For today, though...blinking lights are Just Plain Cool.
There have been times, though, when I've had a recent RS/6000 not
booting successfully, when I would have loved to have a panel. The
RS/6000 diagnostic numbers are much better than most methods, but
there's nothing better than being able to examine the registers themselves.
Peace... Sridhar
20 Mar
20 Mar
4:37 p.m.
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Jos Dreesen wrote:
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on
my coming i8008
system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches )
seem so attractive ?
It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer...
compared to Windoze?
So why is it then that almost all early micros had
them ?
It gave the capability to get a look below the OS and other software.
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is
clearly more usable,
and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor
program) that expensive ?
until recently, keyboards were not cheap. 25 years ago, the PC keyboards
were about $300
It was generally assumed that anybody doing machine language (note: I did
NOT say assembly language) would be comfortable and profficient in binary.
9:02 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?)
At 4:37 PM -0700 3/20/07, Fred Cisin wrote:
until recently, keyboards were not cheap. 25 years
ago, the PC keyboards
were about $300
Are *GOOD* keyboards cheap? The keyboard I'm typing this on cost me
$160, and the ADB-to-USB converter it's plugged into was probably
another $20.
For that matter what modern keyboards are worth owning? At work I
use an antique IBM keyboard that was originally on an RS6k 340, and
here at home I use a combination of my 16 year old "cheap" AT clone
keyboard, an SGI keyboard, various DEC keyboards, an HP Itanium 2
Workstation keyboard (on my Sunblade 1000 no less), and the keyboard
that came with my PowerMac G5 2x2 is on my work laptop (an IBM
ThinkPad). Personally I toss any modern cheap PC keyboards I get.
If it wasn't for the fact I don't have a better keyboard the HP one
would be tossed, the Apple USB keyboard at least is not to bad, I
just don't like the design.
If I pick up a keyboard with the short ends in each hand, and it
flexes when I gently twist, it is considered trash, and treated
accordingly.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
8:21 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?)
On Mar 21, 2007, at 12:02 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Same here. The only "good" PS/2-interfaced keyboards I have here
are a big box of SGI "granite" units, and even they have some flex
(not much) to them. At least they have some heft, though.
However, one other keyboard does stand out. A few months ago, I
picked up an Enermax Aurora keyboard, which has an aluminum chassis
and the "X"-mechanism keys that are similar to those of higher-end
laptops like Powerbooks. I love the keyboard on my Powerbook-G4; I
can *fly* when I'm typing on that...so I wanted to see if I could
find a similar keyboard for my desktop machine. This Enermax is
definitely that; they key mechanism is very similar to that used on
the Powerbook. My typing speed is much better with this keyboard.
And the case is made of *METAL*. Very nice.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
until
recently, keyboards were not cheap. 25 years ago, the PC
keyboards
were about $300
Are *GOOD* keyboards cheap? The keyboard I'm typing this on cost
me $160, and the ADB-to-USB converter it's plugged into was
probably another $20.
For that matter what modern keyboards are worth owning? At work I
use an antique IBM keyboard that was originally on an RS6k 340, and
here at home I use a combination of my 16 year old "cheap" AT clone
keyboard, an SGI keyboard, various DEC keyboards, an HP Itanium 2
Workstation keyboard (on my Sunblade 1000 no less), and the
keyboard that came with my PowerMac G5 2x2 is on my work laptop (an
IBM ThinkPad). Personally I toss any modern cheap PC keyboards I
get. If it wasn't for the fact I don't have a better keyboard the
HP one would be tossed, the Apple USB keyboard at least is not to
bad, I just don't like the design.
If I pick up a keyboard with the short ends in each hand, and it
flexes when I gently twist, it is considered trash, and treated
accordingly. 
8:43 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?)
The keyboard I am using here is a Northgate Omnikey/102 purchased new around
1991 for $75 mailorder from California, still works and has not needed a key
replaced so it was worth the money.
I like the Omnikey Ultra T I use on my Amiga 2000, it was $10 or so plus
shipping and I picked it up here from a list member (thank you again). Its
nice to be able to flip a jumper and use the same keyboard on a Tandy,
Amiga, XT, AT, etc (ok with a few keys moved around in the case of the
Amiga).
For my old Macs I use the Apple ADB extended keyboards or a Appledesign
keyboard if I have to.
Since I use a few KVMs I tend to get away with only a needing a few good
keyboards.
21 Mar
21 Mar
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?)
That style of keyboard was also used in the "Northgate"
computers. They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the
market and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate
80s. Steel frames, virtually no flex, REAL mechanical keys,
programmable function sets... The computers have long since
disappeared (company folded many years ago) but the keyboards still
show up occasionally on e-bay. Called Omnikey and Omnikey
Ultra.. I'm still using one today.
s shumaker
At 07:21 PM 3/20/2007, you wrote:
On Mar 21, 2007, at 12:02 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Same here. The only "good" PS/2-interfaced keyboards I have here
are a big box of SGI "granite" units, and even they have some flex
(not much) to them. At least they have some heft, though.
However, one other keyboard does stand out. A few months ago, I
picked up an Enermax Aurora keyboard, which has an aluminum chassis
and the "X"-mechanism keys that are similar to those of higher-end
laptops like Powerbooks. I love the keyboard on my Powerbook-G4; I
can *fly* when I'm typing on that...so I wanted to see if I could
find a similar keyboard for my desktop machine. This Enermax is
definitely that; they key mechanism is very similar to that used on
the Powerbook. My typing speed is much better with this keyboard.
And the case is made of *METAL*. Very nice.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
until
recently, keyboards were not cheap. 25 years ago, the PC
keyboards
were about $300
Are *GOOD* keyboards cheap? The keyboard I'm typing this on cost
me $160, and the ADB-to-USB converter it's plugged into was
probably another $20.
For that matter what modern keyboards are worth owning? At work I
use an antique IBM keyboard that was originally on an RS6k 340, and
here at home I use a combination of my 16 year old "cheap" AT clone
keyboard, an SGI keyboard, various DEC keyboards, an HP Itanium 2
Workstation keyboard (on my Sunblade 1000 no less), and the
keyboard that came with my PowerMac G5 2x2 is on my work laptop (an
IBM ThinkPad). Personally I toss any modern cheap PC keyboards I
get. If it wasn't for the fact I don't have a better keyboard the
HP one would be tossed, the Apple USB keyboard at least is not to
bad, I just don't like the design.
If I pick up a keyboard with the short ends in each hand, and it
flexes when I gently twist, it is considered trash, and treated
accordingly.
12:16 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?)
On Mar 21, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Steve Shumaker wrote:
That style of keyboard was also used in the
"Northgate" computers.
They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the market
and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate 80s. Steel
frames, virtually no flex, REAL mechanical keys, programmable
function sets... The computers have long since disappeared
(company folded many years ago) but the keyboards still show up
occasionally on e-bay. Called Omnikey and Omnikey Ultra.. I'm
still using one today.
Ahhh, I've heard of the Omnikey, but I don't believe I've ever
seen one in person. Perhaps I should try to find one of those.
Are you sure they produced the keyboard themselves?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
1:33 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?)
I've never uncovered who actually built them. The units have a
"made in Taiwan" for Northgate label on the bottom and the usual FCC
ID number. Nothing else on the outside and I've never opened one
up. FWIW, there is an outfit on the web that sells something
supposedly quite similar. I've never actually had hands on but
have heard others rave about how it feels "just like their old northgate"
http://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm
s shumaker
At 11:16 AM 3/21/2007, you wrote:
On Mar 21, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Steve Shumaker wrote:
That style of keyboard was also used in the
"Northgate" computers.
They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the market
and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate 80s. Steel
frames, virtually no flex, REAL mechanical keys, programmable
function sets... The computers have long since disappeared
(company folded many years ago) but the keyboards still show up
occasionally on e-bay. Called Omnikey and Omnikey Ultra.. I'm
still using one today.
Ahhh, I've heard of the Omnikey, but I don't believe I've ever
seen one in person. Perhaps I should try to find one of those.
Are you sure they produced the keyboard themselves?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
2:12 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards
Dave McGuire wrote:
On Mar 21, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Steve Shumaker wrote:
I'm pretty sure they made the keyboard, but bought the keyswitches from
a supplier. (Alps?)
Peace... Sridhar
That style of keyboard was also used in the
"Northgate" computers.
They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the market and
sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate 80s. Steel
frames, virtually no flex, REAL mechanical keys, programmable function
sets... The computers have long since disappeared (company folded
many years ago) but the keyboards still show up occasionally on
e-bay. Called Omnikey and Omnikey Ultra.. I'm still using one today.
Ahhh, I've heard of the Omnikey, but I don't believe I've ever seen
one in person. Perhaps I should try to find one of those.
Are you sure they produced the keyboard themselves? 
12:36 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?)
On 21 Mar 2007 at 10:19, Steve Shumaker wrote:
That style of keyboard was also used in the
"Northgate"
computers. They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the
market and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate
80s.
Alas, good keyboards got very hard to get after price competition in
PC keyboards got to be real. At one time, Keytronics made some of
the better keyboards, then moved their operation out of the US and
sold out to Honeywell and marketed what amounts to looks-just-like-
every-other-far-East-keyboards.
I've still got a few Cherry PC keyboards, with 10 function keys on
the left, like the old XT style keyboards (20 more function keys are
on the top). Very reliable units.
Some of the more remarkable (in terms of reliability) keyboards are
from the late 60's--a sealed reed switch for each
key, activated by a
doughnut-shaped magnet suspended by a calibrated spring. I
believe
that George Risk made many of these.
On eBay, I see lots of used Cherry POS keyboards with credit-card
stripe readers. Are these PC compatible--and are they any good?
Prices being asked for them seem to range all over the place.
Chuck
(typing this on a Model M; who needs a "windows" key anyway?)
1:12 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards (was: Why blinkenlights ?)
On Wednesday 21 March 2007 15:36, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On eBay, I see lots of used Cherry POS keyboards with
credit-card
stripe readers. Are these PC compatible--and are they any good?
Prices being asked for them seem to range all over the place.
Yes, they're probably just a PS/2 interface keyboard, but the ones I've
used are HORRIBLE to type on.. the keys are mushy, and are difficult to
push down (and don't give any physical feedback when you do push them
down far enough).
Purdue used those in computer labs for a few years starting when I got
here ('99), and have finally gotten rid of most of them.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
2:29 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 21 Mar 2007 at 10:19, Steve Shumaker wrote:
http://www.pckeyboard.com/ for the Model M. Still being made.
Peace... Sridhar
That style of keyboard was also used in the
"Northgate"
computers. They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the
market and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate
80s.
Alas, good keyboards got very hard to get after price competition in
PC keyboards got to be real. At one time, Keytronics made some of
the better keyboards, then moved their operation out of the US and
sold out to Honeywell and marketed what amounts to looks-just-like-
every-other-far-East-keyboards.
6:10 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards
On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 05:29:16PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've never found a good reason to buy a new one. The old ones seemingly
more plentiful than AOL CDs, and they hardly ever break (until you spill
some unfortunate liquid into them, at least. :)
A friend and I have taken a hammer to one before, and it was still
working just fine after we put the keycaps back on...
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
On 21 Mar 2007 at 10:19, Steve Shumaker wrote:
http://www.pckeyboard.com/ for the Model M. Still being made. That style of keyboard was also used in the
"Northgate"
computers. They custom designed one of the heaviest keyboards on the
market and sold it with their Northgate clones in the mid /ate
80s.
Alas, good keyboards got very hard to get after price competition in
PC keyboards got to be real. At one time, Keytronics made some of
the better keyboards, then moved their operation out of the US and
sold out to Honeywell and marketed what amounts to looks-just-like-
every-other-far-East-keyboards.
22 Mar
22 Mar
2:30 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
The only reason would be that you have a hard-on for a brand new keyboard.
Or you want one of the newfangled Model M's with the newer features.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/ for the Model M. Still being made.
I've never found a good reason to buy a new one. The old ones seemingly
more plentiful than AOL CDs, and they hardly ever break (until you spill
some unfortunate liquid into them, at least. :) A friend and I have taken a hammer to one before, and
it was still
working just fine after we put the keycaps back on...
I ran one over with a car by accident and most of the keys still worked,
even though the keycaps were broken.
Peace... Sridhar
23 Mar
23 Mar
8:49 a.m.
New subject: Keyboards
Rumor has it that Patrick Finnegan may have mentioned these words:
Or drop them 15 feet onto concrete. Yes, it happened to me once. I suppose
I *could* have fixed it, but with enough $5 spares, why bother? ;-)
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me
zmerch at 30below.com. |
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers
On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 05:29:16PM -0400, Sridhar
Ayengar wrote:
To give credit where credit is due, even the elcrappo Keytronics keyboards
were marginally better than everyone else's (including Micro$oft's)
elcrappo keyboards. I'm not saying I'd use one on a daily basis, but I'd
keep a Keytronics as a "spare of a spare of a spare" before I'd keep any
other sub-$25 (new) keyboard.
Thankfully, I got at least 10 Model M's for $5 each from the local Uni when
they were clearing stuff out about 5-6 years ago, and still have a few
spares up in the attic. Some of the keyboards were nonworking (stuck keys,
etc) so I keep them for spare parts, but obviously, the working keyboards
don't need repairs often. ;-)
Chuck Guzis wrote:
>On 21 Mar 2007 at 10:19, Steve Shumaker wrote:
.... At one time, Keytronics
made some of
> >the better keyboards, then moved their operation out of the US and
> >sold out to Honeywell and marketed what amounts to looks-just-like-
> >every-other-far-East-keyboards.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/ for the Model M. Still being made.
I've never found a good reason to buy a new one. The old ones seemingly
more plentiful than AOL CDs, and they hardly ever break (until you spill
some unfortunate liquid into them, at least. :) 
21 Mar
21 Mar
1:31 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards
Dave McGuire wrote:
Same here. The only "good"
PS/2-interfaced keyboards I have here are
a big box of SGI "granite" units, and even they have some flex (not
much) to them. At least they have some heft, though.
I've got a fairly nice Dell AT102W (aka Dell 093GDJ, and about the only good
thing to come out of Dell IMO). It's crammed full of Alps microswitch
key-switches, and is about the nicest keyboard I've ever had. The keys have a
lovely 'snap' action; probably not quite as good as an IBM Model M, but not
bad. The Quietkey is an 'updated' version with - IIRC - a 'putty feel'
membrane switch matrix.
The AT101W is basically the same keyboard, but with a US key layout instead of
the UK key layout on the AT102W. They're quite plentiful on eBay - AT102Ws are
not.
IIRC they came with some of the Dell servers and high-end desktops many moons
ago... Poweredge GX2 maybe? Also, FWICT SiliconGraphics / SGI sold basically
the same keyboard with the same model number (AT-101 or AT-102), but in a
'granite' style. Maybe that's what you've got, Dave?
--
Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination.
22 Mar
22 Mar
2:11 p.m.
New subject: Keyboards
On Mar 21, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
That very well may be. They sure are nice keyboards.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Same here.
The only "good" PS/2-interfaced keyboards I have
here are a big box of SGI "granite" units, and even they have some
flex (not much) to them. At least they have some heft, though.
I've got a fairly nice Dell AT102W (aka Dell 093GDJ, and about the
only good thing to come out of Dell IMO). It's crammed full of Alps
microswitch key-switches, and is about the nicest keyboard I've
ever had. The keys have a lovely 'snap' action; probably not quite
as good as an IBM Model M, but not bad. The Quietkey is an
'updated' version with - IIRC - a 'putty feel' membrane switch matrix.
The AT101W is basically the same keyboard, but with a US key layout
instead of the UK key layout on the AT102W. They're quite plentiful
on eBay - AT102Ws are not.
IIRC they came with some of the Dell servers and high-end desktops
many moons ago... Poweredge GX2 maybe? Also, FWICT
SiliconGraphics / SGI sold basically the same keyboard with the
same model number (AT-101 or AT-102), but in a 'granite' style.
Maybe that's what you've got, Dave? 
20 Mar
20 Mar
5:48 p.m.
Jos Dreesen wrote:
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on
my coming i8008
system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches )
seem so attractive ?
It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer...
So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ?
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable,
and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the
monitor program) that expensive ?
Jos
If I recall the displays were put thru logic (7 segment for octal,
special for
hexadecimal) directly from the bus. Keyboards could be interfaced and
read by a monitor, but many had start and stop and step that were the
same as the bat switches. Proms were optional.
Proms could cost a lot. I recall paying retail prices of $20 for
2708's. The
distribution prices were pretty high, so adding a prom monitor was something
a low end system vendor wanted to avoid requiring.
The bat switch / led panel was the simplest, since it avoided having to have
a decoder on board, and used LED's, which were cheaper than early hex
displays. The systems that used octal (don't know of any kits, but saw
lots of home designs) could use a cheaper encoder, but hex displays were
not cheap, unless your rigged your own.
jim
7:26 p.m.
Jos Dreesen wrote:
So why is it then that almost all early micros had
them ?
I had Z80 kit around 1983 with keyboard and 7 segment display.
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is
clearly more usable,
and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor
program) that expensive ?
What monitor program? I think the Altair 8080 came with a 256 byte
ram as main memory. I never did see the original magazines with the
but you now can find some good history about micros on the web to give
you a better idea of why they came with them the blinking lights.
http://www.bytecollector.com/mark_8.htm
Jos
8:53 p.m.
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008
system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches )
seem so attractive ?
It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer...
Actually, having use both a lights-and-switches panel and a
keypad-and-numeric-display panel I much prefer the former. I am not sure
why, but I find it more natural.
Maybe it's because a lot of older machines have an instruction set that
makes sense in binary -- that bit field is a register select code, that bit
field determines the ALU operation, etc, but said bit fields do not align
with boundaries of hex or octal digits.
So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ?
It may have been that the hardware is a little simpler (encoding a
keypad, if done with MSI or SSI chips takes a fair few chips, ditto
driving a 7 seg display). The PDP11/34 after all had am 8008 processor to
drive the keypard/display, older PDP11s had a lights-and-switches panel
with a handfull of TTL ckips to control them
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable,
and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor
program) that expensive ?
If you're thinking of using the 'main' CPU to drive the panel, don't. For
the keypad/display to work, that CPU and most of the rest of the
electronics, has to be working correctly. Remember that these development
boards were often modified with the user's own hardare and it only takes
a bus short or an incorrectly wired eanble line to keep the thing from
running. It's a lot easier to debug the machine when you can send stuff
onto the bus in hardware. Most, if not all, of the lights-and-switches
panels (and, indeed, keypad panels on 'real' machines) were totally
independant of the main CPU.
-tony
21 Mar
21 Mar
7:37 a.m.
Jos Dreesen wrote:
I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on
my coming i8008
system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches )
seem so attractive ?
Direct access to the memory and CPU without any interceding translation?
It must be about the worst possible way to interact
with a computer...
It was the simplest and best known. And it was easy to adapt to and use.
And it was easy to debug or modify.
So why is it then that almost all early micros had
them ?
Mainframe legacy (habit?). And simple. And inexpensive. And cool.
a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is
clearly more usable,
and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the
monitor program) that expensive ?
EPROMS did not exist (or were very unavailable) in the beginning and
then were far more expensive than a handful of switches and lights. And
specialty keyboards like those on the H8 also did not exist "In The
Beginning" and they required additional interface circuitry. 7-segment
LED's were also very expensive--once they were invented and other
display devices were cumbersome, expensive or required additional circuitry.
But I think that fuse PROMs were used before EPROM's for loading
bootstraps.
Programming (E)PROMs was expensive, above and beyond their high prices,
and took time. And one had to beware of the rip-off programmers that
took money for doing nothing, burning the wrong code, damaging the
device, taking your new device and giving you their broken one, keeping
the device and your money, or not burning it at all. Programming gear
was very expensive, well out of hobby range.
(E)PROMs were more valuable than gold or diamonds when they first came
out and less forgiving of errors. (In the case of PROMs, mistakes were
permanent .) Panel switches allowed one to fix mistakes more or less
instantly for free. PROMS, you tossed them. EPROMSs, you sent them back
to figure out whether they broke, were programmed wrong or the program
you provided was wrong then paid to reprogram them and waited.
The first micros use incandescent lamps such as "grain-o-wheats" in
panel inserts. There were lamps designed specifically for use in
computer panels and were common in minis.
$50 would more than cover the switches and lamps for a front panel,
IIRC. Far less pricey than building a binary-7seg converter for
incandescent or a nixie driver at the time.
There were indicators and single-digit displays available as well but
they were expensive. More expensive than 32 or so single lamps or LEDs.
Besides, they wouldn't look as cool. Data General took the switches and
lamps off their Nova front panels and put on just a three-position
rocker or paddle switch and booted from PROM. Looked desolate and naked.
Not at all like a Real Computer. And if it was actually running--well it
wasn't telling; only if there was output could you tell. That's when
someone else invented boot prompts & messages.
--
jd
Comparing information and knowledge is like asking whether the fatness
of a pig is more or less green than the designated hitter rule."
-- David Guaspari
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