On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 09:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote: There is an awful lot of BAD free software as well. The grass is always greener....always. Damo

At 09:01 PM 4/18/2005, Eric Smith wrote: Well, they do hand out 120-day and trial versions of many products, including those. I'm surprised you've never seen them. They generally offer these to the development and dealer communities, not the general public, for obvious reasons - they'd be flooded. But there are exceptions. Click here for a free Visual Studio 2005 beta: http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/Default.aspx And there are much cheaper ways to get many Microsoft products. An MSDN subscription or an Action Pack gets you almost everything for far less than retail. And that's not even tapping into the OEM CD market, where everything goes at a steep discount. - John

I've paid thousands of dollars in the M$ tax over the years so he owes me. This time, the stuff I got was all non-Microsoft. I do love that "Letter to the Editor" whining piece he did. Soooo classic. Soooo prescient. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair MBL source On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 rcini at optonline.net wrote: Did you pay a license fee to Bill Gates? If not, he might get very angry with you and post a long diatribe to the CC list about how software pirates are a hurting good software developers. "Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the hobby market with good software."* Hahahaha. * http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ]

Vintage Computer Festival wrote: Well I don't consider BASIC or other M$ products quality products in the 1st place. Mr Bill is known for marketing not programing software. I think I read that productivity has gone down since the 90's as you have more lost work do to computer crashes.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: For...what? Diluting the software market into medocrity at best? Or you get to lose hours, days, perhaps weeks of work, not to mention your productivity, quite possibly your sanity. It's not for wont of trying. If Bill got his way his software would be everywhere controlling everything. I just realized: I got trolled! ARGH! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: In the reverse direction. Get it? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

Wai-Sun Chia wrote: I think Fred meant "from his current status". A worthy objective.... Doc

millionaire. On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: just think about what it would take to change his net worth from $40,000,000,000 into $1,000,000

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: This gets my vote. If things had worked out differently we might be using ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one package!

Scott Stevens wrote: They have them already --- look at Dekatron decade counters. Also a nice example of them in action. http://anita-calculators.info/html/mk_8.html Wow ... they took their time to scrap it. I hope they did not want original price on it like some people sell things... What I had meant with that statement was that computer growth may have happed since IBM did not see a large market for "personal computers".

----- Original Message ----- From: "Wai-Sun Chia" <waisun.chia at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) They were mainly used as counting and display tubes- good collection of such shown here-- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electricstuff/count.html Another fairly well known one was the Williams storage tube-- http://www.computer50.org/kgill/williams/williams.html Probably some more I can't recall just now. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.17 - Release Date: 19/04/2005

Wai-Sun Chia wrote: Now if you want analog -- 1926 was good year. :) http://www.oldradioworld.de/3nf.htm

I nthe 1920's, Lowe (in Germany) made a radio receiver which consisted of a tuend ciruit, headphones, batteries, and a single glass envelope. That contained 3 triodes and all the R's and C's. The idea did not catch on. The single glass device was expensive, and if any part failed you ad to replace the whole thing. Other radios were much cheaper to repair. A flip-flop valve would certainly be possible. -tony

(a) I read your message after I posted the above. (b) I read my mail off-line, and I am not going to dial in to check every URL that people post... (As a general point, I wish people would make some comment when they give URLs -- of the form 'Lowe one-tube radio' or whatever. I've heard that such taxes lead to the introduction of multi-section valves (double triodes, double diode pentodes, triode hexodes, etc). But there was no need to put the R's and C's in the envelope too, and AFAIK the 'vacuum integated circuit' (:-)) was signfiicantly more expensive than the valves alone. The R's and C's were a significant cost. -tony

William Donzelli wrote: Ok was wrong in my guess. Well how about a better long shot. Try the people at Bletchley Park in the UK. While were into code breaking the geman codes , I am sure the must have had some knowlage of the other equipment used transmit the codes. Good luck.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:07:17 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: My 'EPROM Eraser' uses a multi-element tube. It's actually an old quack medical device from the 1950's. It's a big 'cold quartz' UV lamp, and has a high voltage power supply in the base that uses one of the 'newer' versions of a multifunction tube, the 117L7GT, which is a tube with a 117 volt filament and (I believe) several different tube stages. Probably the _last_ versions of multifunction vacuum tubes were the 'Compactron' tubes, specifically designed multi-element tubes used in the 60's and 70's in sets sets designed to use with fewer tubes, i.e. portable tube-type televisions. Compactrons were in an envelope similar in shape to the common 7 and 9 pin mini tubes, but bigger with (if I recall correctly) 12 pins. Before anybody comments with alarm, yes, I know that the EPROM eraser is VERY dangerous (totally unshielded and a fairly powerful light source) but it's constructed in such a way that the light source can be positioned directly over a conductive mat of EPROMs so no light escapes, which is how I use it. I'm not sure what medical claims were made regarding it, but I did once find it 'displayed' on a website of historical Quack Medical devices. I guess you could do 'therapy' like staring into the bright blue quartz tube to go blind or something...

On 4/21/05, William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> wrote: And pray tell what are Compactrons? Hmmmm...interesting.. So in the heydays of the tube/valve, they trend towards generalization of functions (anybody can say TTL?), and shy away from multifunction/integrated circuits. It is so ironic that the trend is reversed with the coming of transistors->IC->ASIC.. So some questions to throw to the tube collectors: - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? - What was/is the most integrated tube? purpose? /ws

Hi, William Donzelli said: There were some very small wire ended ones made for proximity fuzes in anti-aircraft shells. They are about the size of one of those small neons. Someone in the USA has a stock of new ones and I wouldn't mind getting a few to play with, but I've lost his address. Back in the '60s I had a little portable radio that used wire-ended valves/tubes about half an inch diameter and an inch long. There were also some vacuum tube ics being produced experimentally a few years ago with a few hundred planar devices in one package. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" <aw288 at osfn.org> To: "Wai-Sun Chia" <waisun.chia at gmail.com>; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 3:47 PM Subject: Re: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes snip--- Some mil gear (eg PRC-41) has very small ceramic tubes -not sure if they are quite as small as the Nuvistor but they must be close- likewise some hearing aid amp tubes were pertty damn small as well. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.19 - Release Date: 20/04/2005

William> RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV William> tuners and some test equipments. They are almost always William> triodes, and are really small - 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 William> inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few half sized William> Nuvistors, but never sold them. I think acorn tubes are smaller. Those are UHF tubes -- I think they were used in 1940s or 1950s vintage equipment for oscillators or amplifiers up to a gigahertz or so. They look just like glass acorns, with stiff wires coming out the sides for connectors. The idea is to keep the wires very short, and also to allow them to be connected into resonant transmission line circuits where the pins are just part of the resonant line. paul

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, William Donzelli wrote: Listers' favorite 'scopes, the Tek 5xx series, often have them in the vertical plugins.

From: "Scott Stevens" <chenmel at earthlink.net> I have a few 500 series plug-ins with nuvistors, and have found them to be good reliable devices (you soon recognise the signs of a nuvistor on its way out), I would have the nuvistor version of the 453 and 454 in preference to the FET, but then I don't need to switch on a scope and use it immediatly. The valve is much more tolerant of over voltage on the input. I have seen a sub-minature valve that is about 1/4 of the size of the nuvistor, it is a small ceramic triode, with gold pins, used in the RF stage of radar receivers. one of my staff had a complete oscillator / mixer unit mounted on a plinth on his desk (a present when he left the Air Force), the unit was around 3" long and 3/8" diameter, which included the oscilator and mixer cavities. The valve plugged in one end. Jim.

Somewhere I have a valved hearing aid. It's a flat case that fits in your pocket containing a 3-stage amplifier. The first 2 stages use DF64s -- rectangular cross-section valves perhaps 1/4" wide, 3/16" thick, and 1" long, the output stage is a DL64 which is perhaps 1+1/4" long. They have 5 lead-out wires coming from one end of the device, they could be soldered in, but here they're pluged into ting 5-pin sockets (I've seen similar xockets with 2 contacts not fitted used a transistor holders). There were also cylindrical valves, not much larger, on an 8-wire base. -tony

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, William Donzelli wrote: The compactron type tubes designed specifically for TV sets were as close as successful "integration" got, combining common adjacent stage active devices into one envelope, but it was a commercial tuning of course, nothing particularly innovative (other than the inexpensive (sic) Compactron package). It's not that new either, dual-diode/triodes (FM det plus first audio) are old hat. In hindsight, it seems pretty obvious why "high density" never caught on -- cathodes and filaments die, tubes were expensive. Packaging tubes is expensive.

Well, is a transistor array -- something like a CA3046 -- an integrated circuit? That's 5 transistors, essentially pinned out separately (IIRC, 2 of them have the emitters commoned). It's always listed as an IC in parts lists, data books, etc, but I guess you don't consider it to be one (if it is, then why is the ECC83 / 12AX7 not?) -tony

They do (and sometimes 2 triodes, for the dual-sensitivity indicators like the EM34). Sure. The data I have on them shows the triode anode is directly connected to the control electrode of the indicator section. That's then brought out to a pin. Conventioanlly, the target is connected to HT+, the triode anode/control electrode to HT+ via a resistor [1], the cathode goes to ground, and the signal you want to display (often the AGC line in an AM set) goes to the triode grid. [1] This resistor is notorious for going open-circuit. Something to check if the magic eye seems dead. -tony

Yes, the '117' at the start of that number means a 117V hater, which can go straight across US mains [1]. IIRC, the 117L7 is a combined power pentode (designed for audio output) and a half-wave rectifier. One of the valves I mentioend for cheap record players. [1] US valve numbers start with a string of digits which gives the heater volvtage (but watch out for '7' and '14' which are actually 6.3V and 12.6V o na Loctal baxe). UK Maxda valve codes look similar (they're of the form digit - letters - digits), and again the first set of digits normally gives the heater voltage _apart from 10, 20, 30_ which are series string heater valves for 100mA, 200mA and 300mA chains. Now why do I rememebr this stuff? IIRC, The Tektronix 556 'scope is full of Compactrons. Fortunately my 555 isn't... -tony

From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> The Loewe idea was a tax dodge, at the time, UK tax was levied on each valve. By placing the three devices in one envelope, then only one lot of tax was incurred, which made the device cheaper than three seperate valves, unfortunatly, reliability was only 1/3 of that of a single valve(I know I'm oversimplifying, but I've had a long day and can't be bothered with the maths.....), consequently, the set became more expensive to run than a set with three seperate valves. In terms of general valves, it was not unusual to find 4 seperate devices in one envelope at the end of the valve era, eg the EABC80, which is three diodes and a triode, used in the detector / 1st AF stage of VHF FM sets in the late 50's. ISTR that RCA made some impressive multi element valves for TV use, with 3 or 4 devices in one envelope, but they used a special (13 pin?) base - there are a couple of designs for AM radios that will drive a loud speaker, but only have one piece of glassware (I wish I could remember the RCA name for the devices...). Jim.

On 4/19/05, Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> wrote: Some idiot put that link on slashdot, the site has now gone down. Dan