21 Feb
2012
21 Feb
'12
3:39 p.m.
I have a PDP 11/03 that used to be part of the startup for an 11/780 at
the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. The 780 has long ago been
scrapped.
So, the 11/03 has the following boards:
M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces
M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1
M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async)
M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM
M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller
M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator
I also have the RX01 drive. So, other than media, what other options do
I need to get this running as an 11/03? Where is the best place to get
some basic media images? Is it possible to create boot media on the 8"
drives I have connected to my PC using IMAGEDISK, 22DISK or the
catweasel?
I know a lot of these questions are answered out there, but I've not
seen (yet) a simple step by step to get one of these running.
I have the opportunity to get a couple of memory boards also:
M8044-DB 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11
M8044-DE 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11
So, will these work with this 11/03? It seems they will, but I was
looking for verification.
Thanks for any help, and of course the associated "have you tried
googling..." responses.
Kelly
21 Feb
21 Feb
3:59 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kelly D. Leavitt
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03
I have a PDP 11/03 that used to be part of the startup for an
11/780 at the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. The 780
has long ago been scrapped.
So, the 11/03 has the following boards:
M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces
M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1
M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async)
M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM
M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller
M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator
I also have the M7264 quad wide 11/03 (thanks Glen)
4:20 p.m.
On 02/21/2012 06:59 PM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:
I also have the M7264 quad wide 11/03 (thanks Glen)
Very nice! I love those. Does it have the FIS option? (the fifth
40-pin DIP)
You know what that chipset is, right? I mean where it came from
originally?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:50 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote
On 02/21/2012 06:59 PM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:
No, it only has 4 40 pin dips. Where did FIS come from?
I also have the M7264 quad wide 11/03 (thanks
Glen)
Very nice! I love those. Does it have the FIS option?
(the fifth 40-pin DIP)
You know what that chipset is, right? I mean where it
came from originally?
> So, the 11/03 has the following boards:
> M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces
> M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1
> M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async)
> M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM
> M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller
> M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator
> M7264 : quad wide 11/03
All good. Make sure you have ROMs on the REV11-E
(M9400-YE). I don't
recall if they're typically socketed or not.
There are no ROMS on the M9400-YE. It seems to have 3 buffers or
terminators (16 pin or 14 pin dips), a couple of resistors, and two
header sockets. I think these used to go to a board in the 780 and they
loaded boot code from there. This might be my biggest problem here.
Kelly
KB2SYD
5 p.m.
On 02/21/2012 07:50 PM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:
No, it only has 4 40 pin dips. Where did FIS come from?
Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five
chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode
rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set.
The fifth 40-pin DIP is the FIS option microcode ROM, which gives you
floating-point instructions implemented in microcode.
I also have the M7264 quad wide 11/03 (thanks Glen)
Very nice! I love those. Does it have the FIS option?
(the fifth 40-pin DIP)
You know what that chipset is, right? I mean where it
came from originally? There are no ROMS on the M9400-YE. It seems to have 3
buffers or
terminators (16 pin or 14 pin dips), a couple of resistors, and two
header sockets. I think these used to go to a board in the 780 and they
loaded boot code from there. This might be my biggest problem here.
Ok. I've never "de-11/780d" an 11/780 console 11/03; I will see if I
can find some info about it. We should just replace that board with a
BDV11. I have a bunch of those and can, as the cool kids say, "hook you
up".
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
5:48 p.m.
From: Dave McGuire
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:01 PM
Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either
four or five
chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode
rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set.
Um.
At the time that the WD Pascal MicroEngine came out, I was informed
(by someone who would have known) that *it* was a re-use of the LSI-11
chip set using new microcode. That was 30+ years ago, so I have no
way to back it up now, but I'm going to challenge you to provide the
evidence that WD came first.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
6:14 p.m.
On 02/21/2012 08:48 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
Huh.
I have no such evidence, but I regard it as fairly common knowledge.
It was explained to me by a DECcie when I was a kid in the early
1980s. How authoritative is the "person who would have known"? The guy
who explained it to me could very well have been mistaken.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Not the FIS,
but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five
chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode
rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set.
Um.
At the time that the WD Pascal MicroEngine came out, I was informed
(by someone who would have known) that *it* was a re-use of the LSI-11
chip set using new microcode. That was 30+ years ago, so I have no
way to back it up now, but I'm going to challenge you to provide the
evidence that WD came first. 
7:31 p.m.
On 2/21/12 5:48 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
From: Dave McGuire
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:01 PM
There was also a WD1600 which was neither PDP-11 nor P-Code, and the
original CPU from Alpha Microsystems. I'd have to do some digging to see if that
and the WD1600 were similar.
Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself,
either four or five
chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode
rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set.
Um.
At the time that the WD Pascal MicroEngine came out, I was informed
(by someone who would have known) that *it* was a re-use of the LSI-11
chip set using new microcode. 
8 Aug
8 Aug
5:42 p.m.
New subject: Was: Starting a PDP 11/03 Alpha Micro
Blame Eric Smith's nice web site, first thing is a mention of an Alpha
Micro emulator, which had vanished from where his link pointed.
Using a link from the original project person and archive.org, I located
the current location and managed to get a working AMOS 5 system working.
http://home.gci.net/~mike-noel/Am100/
There is a log of information on the site about the Alpha Micro and AMOS
if anyone is interested. It appears that they are still chugging much
like the zombie from Basic 4 still chugs along servicing the 21st
century versions of these POS and small business automation packages.
mai systems is Basic 4 in case anyone is interested. A friend who left
Microdata for Basic 4 is still on staff.
Apparently on the AMOS system they went to running on a USB dongle at
some point with an atmel system of some sort, at the time I found it it
was hosted by XP. The current systems seem to be sold in that mode.
Looks like the Cobol / BAsic / C / ISAM model was enough to attract and
keep enough developers to sustain them thru the years.
I followed up on an ancient thread because it is the latest one I could
find mentioning Alpha Micro.
jim
On 2/21/2012 7:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 2/21/12 5:48 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
From: Dave McGuire
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:01 PM
There was also a WD1600 which was neither PDP-11 nor P-Code, and the
original CPU from Alpha Microsystems. I'd have to do some digging to
see if that
and the WD1600 were similar.
Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself,
either four or five
chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode
rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set.
Um.
At the time that the WD Pascal MicroEngine came out, I was informed
(by someone who would have known) that *it* was a re-use of the LSI-11
chip set using new microcode. 
21 Feb
21 Feb
10:10 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either
four or five
chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode
rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set.
Other way around. The WD Pascal Microengine came about a few years
after the LSI-11 (1979 vs. February 1975). It was actually the third
"standard" use of that chipset, after the LSI-11 and the WD16 (very
nearly PDP-11 compatible, used in the Alpha Micro systems before they
switched to the 68K).
The chipset was specifically designed for the LSI-11. It is optimized
for instruction decode and dispatch for the PDP-11 instruction set, and
is somewhat less efficient for implementing a bytecode instruction set
like UCSD P-code.
10:25 p.m.
On 02/22/2012 01:10 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote:
Was it really?? Wow, how very embarrassing. I stand corrected. And
to think that bit of misinformation has been rattling around in my head
since the 11/73 (not /03) was a current machine!
Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself,
either four or five chips.
It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode rewritten
to execute the PDP-11 instruction set.
Other way around. The WD Pascal Microengine came about a few years after
the LSI-11 (1979 vs. February 1975). It was actually the third
"standard" use of that chipset, after the LSI-11 and the WD16 (very
nearly PDP-11 compatible, used in the Alpha Micro systems before they
switched to the 68K). The chipset was specifically designed for the LSI-11.
It is optimized
for instruction decode and dispatch for the PDP-11 instruction set, and
is somewhat less efficient for implementing a bytecode instruction set
like UCSD P-code.
I read somewhere that it's actually an 8-bit data path, which always
seemed odd to me. Very interesting stuff. Is the chipset fully
documented anywhere?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:56 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
I read somewhere that it's actually an 8-bit
data path, which always
seemed odd to me.
It's the classic time/space tradeoff. The IBM 360 is a
32-bit
architecture, but the 360/30 has 8-bit data paths, and the 360/40 has
16-bit data paths. A 16-bit data path cost a lot more money than an
8-bit data path, even when it was in 7 micron NMOS. It's only fairly
recently that this has ceased to be true, because process geometries are
now so small that less complex chips are pad-limited.
Very interesting stuff. Is the chipset fully
documented anywhere?
Bitsavers has the manual for the KUV11, which is the writeable
control
store option for the LSI-11. There must have been a tech manual from
WD, but I've never seen it, and it would probably be a subset of the
information in the KUV11 manual.
There is a WD manual on the WD16, but it is at the macroinstruction
level (PDP-11-like), and doesn't cover the microarchitecture.
22 Feb
22 Feb
8:50 a.m.
On 2/21/12 10:56 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote:
I have the three volume WD manual set in the scan queue. I'll see if I can get them
done today.
There must have been a tech manual from WD, but
I've never seen it, and it would probably be a
subset of the information in the
KUV11 manual.
11:54 a.m.
On 2/22/12 8:50 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 2/21/12 10:56 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
I was mistaken, the three manuals were for the GI CP-1600
Dave McGuire wrote:
I have the three volume WD manual set in the scan queue. I'll see if I can get them
done today.
There must have been a tech manual from WD, but
I've never seen it, and it would probably be a
subset of the information in the
KUV11 manual.
12:10 a.m.
DEC Sold the LSI-11 board, board set and in some cases the chip set, through
its Components Product Line. There was at that time (1975 onwards) loads of
documentation available for the LSI-11 as there was for any product destined
for the OEM market place.
The OEM side of DEC was huge. Yearly shipments of 100+ 11/34A's to one OEM
customer in the UK were not unusual.
At that time the magic number was 40%. Europe was 40% of the DEC world wide
turnover and the UK was 40% of Europe. At one point DEC had at least ten
(possibility as many as fifteen) regional offices in the UK alone. They were
second only to IBM.
Rod Smallwood
?
?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 22 February 2012 06:25
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Starting a PDP 11/03
On 02/22/2012 01:10 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote:
Was it really?? Wow, how very embarrassing. I stand corrected. And
to think that bit of misinformation has been rattling around in my head
since the 11/73 (not /03) was a current machine!
Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself,
either four or five chips.
It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode rewritten
to execute the PDP-11 instruction set.
Other way around. The WD Pascal Microengine came about a few years after
the LSI-11 (1979 vs. February 1975). It was actually the third
"standard" use of that chipset, after the LSI-11 and the WD16 (very
nearly PDP-11 compatible, used in the Alpha Micro systems before they
switched to the 68K). The chipset was specifically designed for the LSI-11.
It is optimized
for instruction decode and dispatch for the PDP-11 instruction set, and
is somewhat less efficient for implementing a bytecode instruction set
like UCSD P-code.
I read somewhere that it's actually an 8-bit data path, which always
seemed odd to me. Very interesting stuff. Is the chipset fully
documented anywhere?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
21 Feb
21 Feb
4:19 p.m.
On 02/21/2012 06:39 PM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote:
I have a PDP 11/03 that used to be part of the startup
for an 11/780 at
the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. The 780 has long ago been
scrapped.
*sniffle*
So, the 11/03 has the following boards:
M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces
M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1
M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async)
M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM
M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller
M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator
All good. Make sure you have ROMs on the REV11-E (M9400-YE). I
don't recall if they're typically socketed or not.
I also have the RX01 drive. So, other than media, what
other options do
I need to get this running as an 11/03? Where is the best place to get
some basic media images? Is it possible to create boot media on the 8"
drives I have connected to my PC using IMAGEDISK, 22DISK or the
catweasel?
You should be able to create usable RX01 disks (which are ordinary
SS/SD, IBM 3740-compatible format disks) with a standard 8" drive if you
have a way to control it. I've not done this with a PC, but I'd imagine
the tools you mentioned should work fine. Personally I use an RX02
connected to a PDP-11 running 2.11BSD, so I just FTP a disk image over
and dd it to the drive. (haven't even had to do that in a while, since
I rarely use floppies on PDP-11s)
As far as what other stuff you need, you're good except for memory.
Even RT11SJ (the "single job" monitor) (v5.3) appears to require 16kw of
memory, at least from my tests awhile back.
In practical terms all you'll really be able to run on that machine
is RT-11. I'm not saying that as if it's a bad thing, mind you. You
can get RT-11 boot disk images for the simh emulator; those are "raw"
disk images which you can write directly to a floppy (assuming RX01 vs.
RX02) and they'll work. If you have trouble finding that stuff, let me
know and I'll make one up for you quickly.
I know a lot of these questions are answered out
there, but I've not
seen (yet) a simple step by step to get one of these running.
That's because you're supposed to just KNOW! ;) (yeah, that's the
way it seems...the only way I "just know" is because I got my first one
a few decades ago, and was lucky enough to get all the documentation!)
I have the opportunity to get a couple of memory
boards also:
M8044-DB 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11
M8044-DE 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11
So, will these work with this 11/03? It seems they will, but I was
looking for verification.
Yes, they should be fine.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:09 p.m.
The only difference between the M8044-DB and DEis the manufacturer of the chips.
The first letter A=8K
B=16K
C=24K
D=32K
These are easy to find for no more than $25.
Paul
On 2/21/12, Kelly D. Leavitt <kelly at catcorner.org> wrote:
I have a PDP 11/03 that used to be part of the startup
for an 11/780 at
the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. The 780 has long ago been
scrapped.
So, the 11/03 has the following boards:
M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces
M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1
M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async)
M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM
M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller
M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator
I also have the RX01 drive. So, other than media, what other options do
I need to get this running as an 11/03? Where is the best place to get
some basic media images? Is it possible to create boot media on the 8"
drives I have connected to my PC using IMAGEDISK, 22DISK or the
catweasel?
I know a lot of these questions are answered out there, but I've not
seen (yet) a simple step by step to get one of these running.
I have the opportunity to get a couple of memory boards also:
M8044-DB 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11
M8044-DE 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11
So, will these work with this 11/03? It seems they will, but I was
looking for verification.
Thanks for any help, and of course the associated "have you tried
googling..." responses.
Kelly
3919
days inactive
4454
days old
17 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
kelly＠catcorner.org -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
RichA＠vulcan.com -
rodsmallwood＠btconnect.com -
useddec＠gmail.com