29 Apr
2010
29 Apr
'10
12:20 p.m.
200465382453
If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine
--
Joseph Giliberti
Jackson, New Jersey
29 Apr
29 Apr
12:28 p.m.
No kidding. I am amazed at the prices charged (and paid for) for
fairly generic 80386, 386SX and other lower-end PCs.
Mark
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Joe Giliberti <starbase89 at gmail.com> wrote:
200465382453
If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine
--
Joseph Giliberti
Jackson, New Jersey
12:34 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Joe Giliberti <starbase89 at gmail.com> wrote:
200465382453
If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine
I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger
enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with
virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20
because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work
without it.
I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk
controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very
nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world.
Yes, the Pentium was out before 1995, but it was at the time a
high-end technology. I was still installing WfW 3.11 on 486s w/200MB
of disk and 16MB or less of RAM right up to the introduction of
Windows95.
After Windows95 came out, the demand for that class of machine waned
considerably.
-ethan
12:39 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Joe Giliberti
<starbase89 at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I'm probably going to be looking for a 386-based machine at some
point. I own several distributions of Xenix and Unix for the 80386
and I'd like a real machine to run them on. I even want to find an
80286-based machine for a copy of Xenix-286 that I have. I've got a
machine out in the garage but I haven't had a chance to see what shape
it's in. I'll probably do that this weekend. I also have an IBM
300GL (Pentium II-based system) that I was hoping to set up with OS/2,
but last weekend's attempt to bring it up after several years in
storage were for naught. It can't see the hard drive (which seems to
be ok), so that's another tear-apart and rebuild for the to-do list.
:)
Mark
200465382453
If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine
I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger
enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with
virtualization). ?I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20
because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work
without it.
I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk
controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very
nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world.
Yes, the Pentium was out before 1995, but it was at the time a
high-end technology. ?I was still installing WfW 3.11 on 486s w/200MB
of disk and 16MB or less of RAM right up to the introduction of
Windows95.
After Windows95 came out, the demand for that class of machine waned
considerably.
-ethan
30 Apr
30 Apr
9:07 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Davidson" <mdavidson1963 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: a generic 486 system bid up to $105?
Well, I'm probably going to be looking for a 386-based machine at some
point. I own several distributions of Xenix and Unix for the 80386
and I'd like a real machine to run them on.
===
I actually still have a running 486 (IBM PS/ValuPoint, 32 MB RAM, named
canberra). In fact I just built a new kernel for it this week since Debian
Squeeze wanted some different flags than my existing custom kernel, and the
stock Debian kernel doesn't work (no floating-point math support? My 486 is
an SX).
I don't know why I keep it running, but it's rock-solid reliable so I'd feel
bad about getting rid of it. It was my first *nix machine.
Jim
9:18 a.m.
On Apr 30, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Jim MacKenzie wrote:
I actually still have a running 486 (IBM PS/ValuPoint,
32 MB RAM,
named canberra). In fact I just built a new kernel for it this
week since Debian Squeeze wanted some different flags than my
existing custom kernel, and the stock Debian kernel doesn't work
(no floating-point math support? My 486 is an SX).
I don't know why I keep it running, but it's rock-solid reliable so
I'd feel bad about getting rid of it. It was my first *nix machine.
THAT'S why you keep it running. Sounds good to me.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
9:21 a.m.
I don't
know why I keep it running, but it's rock-solid reliable so
I'd feel bad about getting rid of it. It was my first *nix machine.
THAT'S why you keep it running. Sounds good to me.
9:25 a.m.
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
That's why I'll never give up my Apple Network Server, even when I go to
POWER7. Well, that and it's a pretty interesting box.
Aargh... don't remind me. Even though it would not be able to do
much, I actually miss my first Unix box... an IBM PC/XT running PC/ix.
I have been searching for YEARS to find another copy of PC/ix, to no
avail.
Mark
I don't know why I keep it running, but it's
rock-solid reliable so
I'd feel bad about getting rid of it. ?It was my first *nix machine.
? ?THAT'S why you keep it running. ?Sounds good to me.
29 Apr
29 Apr
12:41 p.m.
I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory,
especially with a VLB disk
controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very
nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world.
I keep a legacy ISA 5x86/133 around with a 16-bit SB and VLB video for
DOS games I haven't yet found Mac equivalents for, although I have managed
to collect many Mac ports of my favourite old games. Particularly for older
titles such as id's original 2D platformer engines, they won't work at all
on PCI motherboards (Bio Menace comes to mind).
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away. ------------------
2:20 p.m.
On 29 Apr 2010 at 15:34, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium
systems from younger
enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with
virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20
because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work
without it.
As far as I know, DOS will run on almost any x86 PC, pre-Pentium or
not. The main difference to me is that the older systems are slower
and generally have more ISA slots.
Some software has CPU timing loops, and that may make a difference,
however. Games written for a 5150 set running on 3GHz PC can be a
bit more--ah, challenging.
--Chuck
2:31 p.m.
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 29 Apr 2010 at 15:34, Ethan Dicks wrote:
You haven't lived until you've tried to play Bouncing Babies (CGA!) on a
2Ghz machine. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
I'm starting to see some interest in
pre-Pentium systems from younger
enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with
virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20
because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work
without it.
As far as I know, DOS will run on almost any x86 PC, pre-Pentium or
not. The main difference to me is that the older systems are slower
and generally have more ISA slots.
Some software has CPU timing loops, and that may make a difference,
however. Games written for a 5150 set running on 3GHz PC can be a
bit more--ah, challenging.
2:42 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 29 Apr 2010 at 15:34, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Yes. I haven't tried DOS on a Pentium4, but the problems I would
expect to see there are related to poor or non-existent BIOS and
hardware support for multiple floppy drives or drives other than
"1.44MB" capacities.
Sound-based applications might have problems with IRQs and PCI-only
machines - that was a pain point at the ISA->PCI changeover.
I'm starting to see some interest in
pre-Pentium systems from younger
enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal...
As far as I know, DOS will run on almost any x86 PC, pre-Pentium or
not. ?The main difference to me is that the older systems
are slower
and generally have more ISA slots.
Or more specifically, _have_ ISA slots. I have a motherboard (Asus
A7V) that's 10 years old and has only 5 PCI and an AGP.
Some software has CPU timing loops, and that may make
a difference,
however.
Quite, but most of that was purged from the market when machines
started getting faster than about 16MHz. For 286s and 386s, there was
the "Turbo" button. I don't recall many 486s having an active Turbo
switch, and I don't remember seeing any Pentium systems that could be
slowed down that easily (though you could disable cache and pump up
wait-states and such in the BIOS).
?Games written for a 5150 set running on 3GHz PC can
be a
bit more--ah, challenging.
Indeed.
The first job I had was at the place that wrote "Wordvision", a word
processor for the PC (my job was to write the C-64 demo for Comdex).
Wordvision was written for a 5150 with 256MB or more, one floppy drive
or more, and DOS 1.0 "or better". It used timing loops for key
repeat. Someone came along after the company folded and wrote a patch
to let Wordvision run sanely on a 386. I think they just adjusted the
timing parameter to match the measured speed of the target machine so
that key repeat "worked as expected".
-ethan
3:10 p.m.
On 29 Apr 2010 at 17:42, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Or more specifically, _have_ ISA slots. I have a
motherboard (Asus
A7V) that's 10 years old and has only 5 PCI and an AGP.
ISA motherboards are still around--and pricey. Soyo made/makes a
Socket 478 P4 board with 3 ISA slots. I tend to hang onto PIII
motherboards with more than one ISA slot. Most are Slot 1 types and
I've had lousy results upgrading them with Slotkets.
Quite, but most of that was purged from the market
when machines
started getting faster than about 16MHz. For 286s and 386s, there was
the "Turbo" button. I don't recall many 486s having an active Turbo
switch, and I don't remember seeing any Pentium systems that could be
slowed down that easily (though you could disable cache and pump up
wait-states and such in the BIOS).
I've got P1 and 486 boards with turbo switch and LED headers, though
I'm not certain what effect they have, other than illuminating or
extinguishing the Turbo LED.
One nice aspect of the ISA bus is that it's simple to interface to
and write DOS drivers for. PCI is not nearly so nice and USB on DOS
is a real pain. Windows/Linux usually requires a fair amount of work
in the driver department.
So I keep a stock of ISA prototyping boards around.
--Chuck
5:24 p.m.
On 4/29/2010 4:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Some software has CPU timing loops, and that may make
a difference,
however. Games written for a 5150 set running on 3GHz PC can be a
bit more--ah, challenging.
It depends on the game, of course. Alley Cat used the timer for all
pacing calculations, so it runs perfectly on any PC. I ran it on a
bootable (USB) floppy on my 3GHZ Core i7 for a friend to prove it.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
3:22 p.m.
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Joe Giliberti
<starbase89 at gmail.com> wrote:
The huge spasm of recycle-mania over the past ten years has all but
eliminated the once-plentiful 486 machines. Best thing that ever happened
to eBay :-).
Steve
--
200465382453
If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine
I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger
enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with
virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20
because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work
without it.
I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk
controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very
nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world.
Yes, the Pentium was out before 1995, but it was at the time a
high-end technology. I was still installing WfW 3.11 on 486s w/200MB
of disk and 16MB or less of RAM right up to the introduction of
Windows95. 
4:25 p.m.
You ever wonder if someone in Intel's marketing purposefully gave the
"486" the 486SX name - knowing it really meant SUX - cause those SX
chips were such dogs!!! ;-)
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Joe Giliberti
<starbase89 at gmail.com> wrote:
200465382453
If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine
I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger
enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with
virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20
because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work
without it.
I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk
controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very
nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world.
Yes, the Pentium was out before 1995, but it was at the time a
high-end technology. I was still installing WfW 3.11 on 486s w/200MB
of disk and 16MB or less of RAM right up to the introduction of
Windows95.
After Windows95 came out, the demand for that class of machine waned
considerably.
-ethan
5:22 p.m.
On 4/29/2010 2:20 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote:
If this is representative of the market for 486s, my
basement is a gold mine
I find it odd that it's that high with the drive not working, but there
are people for whom a 486 allows them to play their favorite games again
with authentic experience preserved. The state of DOSBOX emulation is
very very good, but sometimes you just can't get the ambiance back
unless you use the real thing.
I know it may seem odd to talk about a wintel box as having unique
ambiance, but if it's what you grew up with, it does. I try to tell
people why playing Wizardry on a real Apple with floppies is better than
emulation -- for example, when the disk drive started seeking oddly when
you entered a room, your heart raced because that indicated a larger or
more uncommon party of monsters than usual. The clack of the keyboard,
visible scanlines on the screen, the pace of the game, etc. are usually
best with the real thing.
If a 486 was that to some person, they may want it back.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
5:50 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote:
for example, when the disk drive started seeking oddly
when you entered a
room, your heart raced because that indicated a larger or more uncommon
party of monsters than usual. ?The clack of the keyboard, visible scanlines
Or on my C64, it meant the game was about to crash, with the same
cardiovascular effect.
30 Apr
30 Apr
4:07 a.m.
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 03:20:04PM -0400, Joe Giliberti wrote:
200465382453
If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine
I see several original floppies in that auction. Could it bee that
original Microsoft Windows and Mortal Kombat helped raise the price?
/P
5350
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18 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
cclist＠sydex.com -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
jim＠photojim.ca -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mdavidson1963＠gmail.com -
pontus＠Update.UU.SE -
silent700＠gmail.com -
snhirsch＠gmail.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
starbase89＠gmail.com -
trixter＠oldskool.org