28 Jun
2000
28 Jun
'00
10:54 a.m.
Are there any on-line archives of OS/360 software in the
public domain? I'm thinking not only of operating system
software distributions (which are rumored to be in the public
domain), but also of user-group collections of software for
these beasts. I'm also interested in software for previous
generations of old iron, like IBM 1401's, etc.
I've asked around at a couple of prominent computer museums, but
they all just shrug their shoulders when I ask them how they
archive and index the original software, like they've never considered
it to be important. I really feel like I'm talking to all the
wrong curators, because they seem to have no interest in the subject
at all.
I've heard of the Hercules emulator project, but I don't know what
software they have archived so far, or what efforts they are currently
making. If someone could point me towards an index of their software
archives I'd appreciate it.
I consider myself to be an expert at archiving DEC-related
software, and often am involved in all sorts of projects in that
sphere that benefit everyone from hobbyists to those with legal
cases, but I know little to nothing about what archives of old IBM
stuff are available.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
28 Jun
28 Jun
11:29 a.m.
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote:
I've asked around at a couple of prominent
computer museums, but
they all just shrug their shoulders when I ask them how they
archive and index the original software, like they've never considered
it to be important. I really feel like I'm talking to all the
wrong curators, because they seem to have no interest in the subject
at all.
Assumptions like these don't take into account lack of staff or lack of
funding for such projects.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
2:08 p.m.
I've heard of the Hercules emulator project, but I
don't know what
software they have archived so far, or what efforts they are currently
making. If someone could point me towards an index of their software
archives I'd appreciate it.
I played with Hercules briefly a while back when I had some free time (free
time? what's that). Anyway, here are some links, I don't think they've got
any kind of a list of available software though.
http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercos360/
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/
Links to the software archives:
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/hercfaq.html
BTW, I didn't know what I was doing, but the emulator seems to be very cool,
and very well done. I was able to get OS/360 booted on it.
Zane
4:43 p.m.
Are there any on-line archives of OS/360 software in
the
public domain? I'm thinking not only of operating system
software distributions (which are rumored to be in the public
domain), but also of user-group collections of software for
these beasts. I'm also interested in software for previous
generations of old iron, like IBM 1401's, etc.
I might think could be out of luck. It seems that most IBM software
(except for S/34, 36, and 38 stuff) goes away very quickly. I have a
feeling IBM itself has something to do with this.
If RCS/RI ever come across any, we will let you know. Likewise, if the
few 3348 disk cartridges I have (REAL WInchesters!) still have good data,
you can have that S/3 stuff (CCP01 and stuff), if it is in the public domain.
Also, lets face it - IBM just doesn't have the prestige that DEC stuff
does in the hacker world. I bet many IBM tapes and such were thrown away
by the hackers themselves.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
29 Jun
29 Jun
9:01 a.m.
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5:21 p.m.
The problem with (1970's) IBM machines as against
similar vintage DEC
machines is that the IBM machines have a lot less 'hacker' documentation
available. For some IBM systems it can even be hard to get the binary
opcode list, something that DEC have been known to stick in the
advertising flyer.
DEC machines generally had at least schematics and a technical manual
available. And most of the components were off-the-shelf. This, alas,
doesn't apply to IBM machines.
Certainly many of the old IBMs could be hacked with (if the shop would
let 'em - probably more of an issue!). The only machine I can think of
that was really a mystery back then was the S/38, because it was so high
level (S/38s somewhat mutated into the AS/400 family). Lots of
information - enough to do some darn cool hacks - was commonly available
for the S/360 and S/370, S/3, S/32,34,36, and S/1 (basically most of the
biggies of the 70s and 80s).
Hardware and maintenance docs for the old systems used to be very locked
up, but not anymore. Many of the machines that are popping up these days
have the set of Big Blue Binders with them, as apparently IBM is not
taking them back anymore (or is not too careful about it). Once the rhyme
and reason is solved behind the organization of the maintenance libraries,
the machines get described in minute detail - actually far better than
DEC docs.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
4 Jul
4 Jul
2:08 a.m.
> Also, lets face it - IBM just doesn't have
the prestige that DEC stuff
> does in the hacker world. I bet many IBM tapes and such were thrown away
The problem with (1970's) IBM machines as against
similar vintage DEC
machines is that the IBM machines have a lot less 'hacker' documentation
available. For some IBM systems it can even be hard to get the binary
opcode list, something that DEC have been known to stick in the
advertising flyer.
I can't tell about the small stuff, but for /3x0 systems the
opcodelist was omnipresent - and all necersary information for
IPL and (software) problem diagnosis.
Let's face it, the numbers of people with a /3x0 at hoe is close
to zero, so all stuff was done at your job. Terms like shareware,
or free software never has been an issue. It was more like an
old boys network. With an exception of IBMs software and some
comercial package it was always up to some kind of trade and
haggle - If you hear about some interesting app, you just ask
to get it - often you got huge packages for free (Well, not
realy, you always did sen back some bottles of beer or Cognac
for the next 'Meeting' :)
There are user groups among mainframe users, and most are
still in existence - just again, they are like english clubs
and not just a regular reserved table in some pizza shop.
DEC machines generally had at least schematics and a
technical manual
available. And most of the components were off-the-shelf. This, alas,
doesn't apply to IBM machines.
Again it's more a thing of quantity, so it is less known, but the
same you said is true for the IBM (Big Iron) world - Buy a Fujitsu
CPU, add Hitatchi chanel controller ans some drives, add CDC tapes,
maybe some SIEMENS network/terminal components and Terminals from
someone else (lets say Tandberg :) - now add an OS of your flavour
(in most cases some IBM OS) and you have a working mainframe system.
And if you took a non IBM OS, you even managed it to be completly
IBM free :)
> by the hackers themselves.
I don't think there was a deliberate policy
amongst hackers to throw this
stuff out (certainly not from any of the hackers I've met), but you can
bet 'that ancient tape of IBM software' would have been a good candidate
for a scratch tape :-(
Jep. After a machine is dismissed, most of the storage medias have
just been thrown away. But Tapes (and other medias) where DATA storage.
And the data has been just moved to newer medias on a regular schedule.
Programm tapes are quite raere within the mainframe world - remember,
within each generation you can put all software a data center did use
on just one (or a maximum of two) tapes. And these two tapes where
kept among _thousands_ of data tapes.
Gruss
H.
--
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7 comments
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participants (7)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
healyzh＠aracnet.com