On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: We'll be driving our Hummers around, going from gas station to gas station, and grab a burger while we're at it. Can we go back to puters now? --fred

Well, no conspiracy or educational theories needed, some technologies which are so ubiquitous that we take them for 'imortal' will soon be phased out. Among them are things as analogue Radio and TV, includeing CRTs. I'm not talking digital satelite, or cable. Within the next 5-8 years the all terrestric TV transmission in Germany will be switched over to DVB-T, analoge licences will be revoked (as it already happened to some stations). It's only a matter of time until the whole feed chain will be all digital, from production over storrage and transmission to reciver and display... No more fast modifiying of a TV set into a computer CRT. All the knowledge will be worthless in 20-30 years, when there are just _no_new_tubes_ available... Year, right, we will save the world ... :) H. -- VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/

Which follows the old maxim about people with a bent for technology trying to bribe someone: Always beware of a geek bearing grifts. --John On Tuesday 04 November 2003 16:02 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote:

Ok, now it gets slicky ... Tony, you're maybe one of the few that can somehow proof me wrong, but I doubt that anybody will come around with a homegrown 14" B/W CRT to replace a damaged for any 1970s terminal I have, nor with any colour CRT, not even a rather rough one like used in the IIgs colour screen. I don't doubt that it's possible with home grown development and tools to build a diplay tuge able to show of something, but from there, until todays CRTs is quite some way. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/

Making a CRT from scratch that is even remotely usable is probably beyond impossible. Quite a few guys have made tubes in the basement, and the best anyone can do is something on par with a 1920s triode. Maybe. The problem is not so much the building of the guns or the bulb, or even getting a good vacuum - it is *keeping* a good vacuum. Outgassing any tube is a combination of proper materials, environment, and timing, with a healthy dose of magic mixed in. It is far more than just pumping out the gas, sealing the tip, and popping the getter. The tube may work initially, but in a very short amount of time you might as well start over. Most of this information is well documented, thanks to the Dowd archive, but some of the magic is not, and is now gone along with the tube men. If you look at all of the troubles restarted modern tube shops have - even using the original equipment - you might be suprised. Even in the old days, there was much "heartbreak" to get the bugs out. After making a few thousand trial runs, quality tubes might start coming of the lines. There is a very good article in a recent Tube Collector (yes, there is a magazine for those that collect tubes) called "Heartache on the Factory Floor", or something like that. William Donzelli aw288(a)osfn.org

This is exactly the reason as to why I haven't discarded a spare 25" Zenith color picture tube... one of these days I may have a use for it, not being able to find one anywhere else. If only it didn't take up so much space. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

Let me guess - Cathode Ray Tube RAM? Seems like some of the really old (and really big) machines used that. Ian Primus ian_primus(a)yahoo.com

Quothe Tony Duell, from writings of Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 11:14:21PM +0000: The oldest spare CRT that I have is probably still somewhat newer than that; a CRT from an old (late 1940s, I would guess) DuMont oscilloscope. Very interesting! Is it also some sort of storage valve used for memory? -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

Hey guys! I've just been offered a "Mitsubishi Melcom 80' (fellow has also sent some pics) - looks to be in good order (rather heavy though, 160kg). Anyone know anything about these things ? Not really my forte - doesn't look anything like a Commodore :-) cheers, Lance // http://commodore.thebbs.org news://commodore.thebbs.org - Fidonet echos via your newsreader. Since 1987 - Australia's oldest Amiga & CBM BBS // --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 21/10/2003

Quothe Vintage Computer Festival, from writings of Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 08:02:50PM -0800: Excellent! Is it in working condition? Black front panel, no graticule covering the face of the CRT, square potted power transformer? I had one too, but nearly 20 years ago, I did something regrettable with it: disassembled it for parts (probably still have most of them around here somewhere). Fortunately, I never did anything like that to my Tektronix 531 or Heathkit OM-3. As far as I know, the empty chasis is still in the back yard covered in vines and inhabited by spiders, if anything's left of it besides rust. -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

IIRC, the earliest production model DuMont had the 2" CRT in a can on a little stand, with a short cable that attached it to the electronics box. This was definitely in the mid-to-late 30s. The oldest scope I own currently is a Knight 7" from the mid 50s - even works... James Millen also made a line of rack-mount scopes in the 40s for integration into radio gear. Very cool units, about 5 RU, black crackle finish and big rectangular knobs. ObClassiccmp: O'scopes were used in the Whirlwind as memory register and output displays... in the old pictures one can see several. And the EDSAC had scopes for the same use - the early Tic Tac Toe game was 'displayed' on one of the memory scopes. NOT to be confused with the Williams tube of a decade later... Cheers and Best of the Season! John

Hi, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: Memory?? Like in Williams Tube? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

Probably. The wheel is turning. In the early days of North America, society valued education and learning, for example by giving higher education a good deal of public money. Now that attitude has been lost and the support it engendered is fading; in a few generations there will be nothing left. Then North America will one day look at itself and wake up to a realization that it has become what today is called Third World, and be thoroughly baffled as to how and why this happened. ...and whoever is on top then will get complacent, and North America will be motivated to care about education again, and the wheel will turn around again. Perhaps things aren't quite that dismal. Europe has maintained a remarkable level of support for education for a remarkable time. And a few subcultures have maintained a love of and respect for learning for _long_ periods (the Jews come to mind). But the above is sure what I see happening. "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance." The problem is, the true cost of ignorance is deferred until after the next election. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B